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Genuine question for leavers
Is this the brexit you voted for?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...trade-deal-nhs
The reason I ask is because this is 100% the brexit I most feared and I think we are looking more and more like getting it thrust upon us.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
I voted leave because the EU is undemocratic, unaccountable, dominated by bullying Germany and in my opinion the stepping stone to a fascistic one-world corporatocracy.
So no.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
severncity
I voted leave because the EU is undemocratic, unaccountable, dominated by bullying Germany and in my opinion the stepping stone to a fascistic one-world corporatocracy.
So no.
Does that mean you didn't mind what came after leaving because in your view it couldn't be worse than where we were headed within the EU?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
I voted to stay ,and would easily vote to go ,all the experts come up with endless statements but no counterproductive plan.
Easiest thing in the world is to stand on the sidelines and say or this is rubbish .
Strangely May's plan has moved more towards a more centralist view , so why they all can't grab a cross party consensus to provide a deal is beyond me , however if they did it puts at jeopardy those agendas wanting to use this as general election tool , and power grab , bugger what the people voted for, and what might happen if we did crash out .
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
On the one hand, leavers didn't really know what deal they were voting for and, on the other hand, remainers weren't really voting for the way the EU is inexorably heading...
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Does this mean we going to become a part of the USA? The free movement sounds interesting, now we can all live the American Dream. We should have done this long ago, we have much in common.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
severncity
I voted leave because the EU is undemocratic, unaccountable, dominated by bullying Germany and in my opinion the stepping stone to a fascistic one-world corporatocracy.
So no.
I never really understood this corporatocracy argument - the EU has done more to tackle the excesses of multinationals than anyone, and certainly more than the UK could ever achieve by itself.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I never really understood this corporatocracy argument - the EU has done more to tackle the excesses of multinationals than anyone, and certainly more than the UK could ever achieve by itself.
Try reading about it and you may understand it if you are clever enough.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
severncity
Try reading about it and you may understand it if you are clever enough.
I have read about it, and the narrative that is being put forward doesn't appear to be backed up by what is actually happening.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I have read about it, and the narrative that is being put forward doesn't appear to be backed up by what is actually happening.
Read these then
http://www.europeanfinancialreview.com/?p=6074
https://www.mondialisation.ca/the-ri...ocracy/5532097
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ceta-eu-canada
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
severncity
Yes I have read articles like this, and I certainly agree that the rising scale and power of these mega corporations needs to be countered.
The EU is one of the only bodies that is willing to stand up to them though (China aside but let's not go down that road) in terms of workers rights, taxation, data protection, market manipulation and a raft of other areas name any country who has done more to tackle the excesses of multinationals?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
Yes I have read articles like this, and I certainly agree that the rising scale and power of these mega corporations needs to be countered.
The EU is one of the only bodies that is willing to stand up to them though (China aside but let's not go down that road) in terms of workers rights, taxation, data protection, market manipulation and a raft of other areas name any country who has done more to tackle the excesses of multinationals?
Well last time I looked youth unemployment was around 25% in most southern EU countries, the minimum wage in most countries is barely enough to live on, the EU allows offshoring of profits and revenues to avoid corporation tax and the ex head of the EU lobbies for Goldman Sachs while he is in the job.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/21/gold...-lobbying.html
The so-called workers benefits, other than the EU time directive, sick pay and holiday pay, add up to very little. Remember when people had a job for life? With pension, holiday and sick pay? It is because the EU has enabled huge corporations to shift work to countries with lower wages and promote the gig economy that rights have been eroded.
And I can name a country that has done more than the EU to protect workers from corporations. Iceland.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
severncity
Well last time I looked youth unemployment was around 25% in most southern EU countries, the minimum wage in most countries is barely enough to live on, the EU allows offshoring of profits and revenues to avoid corporation tax and the ex head of the EU lobbies for Goldman Sachs while he is in the job.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/21/gold...-lobbying.html
The so-called workers benefits, other than the EU time directive, sick pay and holiday pay, add up to very little. Remember when people had a job for life? With pension, holiday and sick pay? It is because the EU has enabled huge corporations to shift work to countries with lower wages and promote the gig economy that rights have been eroded.
And I can name a country that has done more than the EU to protect workers from corporations. Iceland.
Like all skilled illusionists, the EU are good at making you think they are doing something by saying one thing and doing another.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
severncity
Well last time I looked youth unemployment was around 25% in most southern EU countries, the minimum wage in most countries is barely enough to live on, the EU allows offshoring of profits and revenues to avoid corporation tax and the ex head of the EU lobbies for Goldman Sachs while he is in the job.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/21/gold...-lobbying.html
The so-called workers benefits, other than the EU time directive, sick pay and holiday pay, add up to very little. Remember when people had a job for life? With pension, holiday and sick pay? It is because the EU has enabled huge corporations to shift work to countries with lower wages and promote the gig economy that rights have been eroded.
And I can name a country that has done more than the EU to protect workers from corporations. Iceland.
The EU identified that Apple weren't paying enough tax in Ireland and made them repay it, something which wasn't being pursued by the Irish government itself. On numerous times it has attempted to bring in laws clamping down on multinationals ability to export profits to low tax countries, but has been vetoed at every turn by, yes you guessed it, the UK.
In the meantime the UK has slashed corporation tax and actually purposefully made it easier to export profits in an attempt to be a patsy to the multinationals. After brexit this is only going to get worse.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
The EU identified that Apple weren't paying enough tax in Ireland and made them repay it, something which wasn't being pursued by the Irish government itself. On numerous times it has attempted to bring in laws clamping down on multinationals ability to export profits to low tax countries, but has been vetoed at every turn by, yes you guessed it, the UK.
In the meantime the UK has slashed corporation tax and actually purposefully made it easier to export profits in an attempt to be a patsy to the multinationals. After brexit this is only going to get worse.
Only if we allow it! Don't throw away your pussy hat, it will come in handy later, and I will be marching alongside you (minus the pussy hat) :biggrin:
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
The EU is not a real community of fairness, some countries do not apply the same rules , pay poor minimum wages ,others don't pay benefits straight out (IE have longer qualifying periods ) , or provide total free health , poorer pensions .
What has always annoyed me is that we do the right thing every time,apply every rule .
I also wonder if Europe has secretly like the fact their poorer nations flow into us as our benefits, free health , and better minimum wages are better than most. ( we never got thanked for that one )
You now see supermarkets starting to stock more UK British flagged product's, hey this might at least kick start our farming,fishing industries back into life and create jobs,and what may follow that ??
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Only if we allow it! Don't throw away your pussy hat, it will come in handy later, and I will be marching alongside you (minus the pussy hat) :biggrin:
No Matter how much an Independent Britain is interested in tackling the power of multinationals, our ability to do so is drastically reduced Vs what it would be within the EU.
Also the only people predicting any kind of a rosy future after brexit are doing so on the assumption that we will be pandering to multinationals much more than we already do.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
The EU is not a real community of fairness, some countries do not apply the same rules , pay poor minimum wages ,others don't pay benefits straight out (IE have longer qualifying periods ) , or provide total free health , poorer pensions .
What has always annoyed me is that we do the right thing every time,apply every rule .
I also wonder if Europe has secretly like the fact their poorer nations flow into us as our benefits, free health , and better minimum wages are better than most. ( we never got thanked for that one )
You now see supermarkets starting to stock more UK British flagged product's, hey this might at least kick start our farming,fishing industries back into life and create jobs,and what may follow that ??
Our benefits and minimum wages are certainly not better than a lot of our near neighbours.
Also the EU increasing the prosperity of eastern European countries has a reductive effect on immigration
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
Our benefits and minimum wages are certainly not better than a lot of our near neighbours.
Also the EU increasing the prosperity of eastern European countries has a reductive effect on immigration
I was referring to the likes of Poland and Romania have a look at some of the data in this link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_minimum_wage
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
No deal gets closer! Yay! god bless Brexit and taking back control, those blue passports made in France all seem so worth this utter farce eh!
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CardiffIrish2
No deal gets closer! Yay! god bless Brexit and taking back control, those blue passports made in France all seem so worth this utter farce eh!
Brexiteers playing such a dirty game today. This 'europe is bullying us' thing is such bollocks and so divisive but their core support will lap it up.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Brexiteers playing such a dirty game today. This 'europe is bullying us' thing is such bollocks and so divisive but their core support will lap it up.
I voted Remain and I think Europe is bullying us!!
Both Remainers and Brexiteers have played dirty games at times.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
I voted Remain and I think Europe is bullying us!!
Both Remainers and Brexiteers have played dirty games at times.
Maybe you can explain it to me because I just don't see it.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
I voted Remain and I think Europe is bullying us!!
Both Remainers and Brexiteers have played dirty games at times.
I am sure that when we start to negotiate trade deals with the US, China and India they will never seek to exploit the weakness of our position in the same way those nasty Europeans are doing!
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Where's the alternative plan ,it is so easy to sit on the sidelines and say that won't work ,or we are trying to protect jobs , its just populist soundbite, yes the government has made a pigs ear of this,however, whatever was proposed was always going to get kicked back.
Instead of short media grabbing soundbite statements , why doesnt Europe and /or the opposition actually publish an actual counter plan to the one on the table .
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Where's the alternative plan ,it is so easy to sit on the sidelines and say that won't work ,or we are trying to protect jobs , its just populist soundbite, yes the government has made a pigs ear of this,however, whatever was proposed was always going to get kicked back.
Instead of short media grabbing soundbite statements , why doesnt Europe and /or the opposition actually publish an actual counter plan to the one on the table .
The onus is on the UK to make an alternative plan. I would say it's specifically on the elected MPs who are making a big deal about saying the UK will have a trillion pounds in the bank in a few years etc etc to come up with it.
But they won't and for very good reason.
The EU wants the UK to stay, so their best tactic is probably to let the UK repeatedly punch itself in the face until it sees sense.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
The EU bullying accusation seems at odds with the insistence that the EU need a deal as much as the UK does.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
The onus is on the UK to make an alternative plan. I would say it's specifically on the elected MPs who are making a big deal about saying the UK will have a trillion pounds in the bank in a few years etc etc to come up with it.
But they won't and for very good reason.
The EU wants the UK to stay, so their best tactic is probably to let the UK repeatedly punch itself in the face until it sees sense.
Seems like a one sided tactic,and not one of reason or fair mindeness, it reminds of my school yard days ,when one kept the ball and wouldn't give it back.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Where's the alternative plan ,it is so easy to sit on the sidelines and say that won't work ,or we are trying to protect jobs , its just populist soundbite, yes the government has made a pigs ear of this,however, whatever was proposed was always going to get kicked back.
Instead of short media grabbing soundbite statements , why doesnt Europe and /or the opposition actually publish an actual counter plan to the one on the table .
I can't think of any better definition of 'short media grabbing soundbite statement' than what Theresa May did yesterday.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Seems like a one sided tactic,and not one of reason or fair mindeness, it reminds of my school yard days ,when one kept the ball and wouldn't give it back.
But there isn't any equivalence between the two parties. The UK is seeking to have an arrangement with 27 countries and it's up to the EU if they consider any proposed arrangement as unacceptable. The UK position all the way through has been baffling to many observers on the continent.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Seems like a one sided tactic,and not one of reason or fair mindeness, it reminds of my school yard days ,when one kept the ball and wouldn't give it back.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">- Hello, I’d like to buy a unicorn please. <br>- Sorry, we don’t sell unicorns. <br>- But I promised one for my children. <br>- Sorry, sir. <br>- WELL THE BALL’S IN YOUR COURT NOW, ISN’T IT, MATE? <a href="https://t.co/RPVTsW1YGG">pic.twitter.com/RPVTsW1YGG</a></p>— Jonathan Coe (@jonathancoe) <a href="https://twitter.com/jonathancoe/status/1043173547726831616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
The EU bullying accusation seems at odds with the insistence that the EU need a deal as much as the UK does.
No it doesn't
If they can more than they can get by bullying you can be sure the EU will do it.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
I am sure that when we start to negotiate trade deals with the US, China and India they will never seek to exploit the weakness of our position in the same way those nasty Europeans are doing!
Well of course they will.
And we should stand up to them as well.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">- Hello, I’d like to buy a unicorn please. <br>- Sorry, we don’t sell unicorns. <br>- But I promised one for my children. <br>- Sorry, sir. <br>- WELL THE BALL’S IN YOUR COURT NOW, ISN’T IT, MATE? <a href="https://t.co/RPVTsW1YGG">pic.twitter.com/RPVTsW1YGG</a></p>— Jonathan Coe (@jonathancoe) <a href="https://twitter.com/jonathancoe/status/1043173547726831616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Why do people on both sides quote these bloody stupid analogies which bear no relation to what is going on?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But there isn't any equivalence between the two parties. The UK is seeking to have an arrangement with 27 countries and it's up to the EU if they consider any proposed arrangement as unacceptable. The UK position all the way through has been baffling to many observers on the continent.
But if as they say they want good relations with us they should be prepared to negotiate not just dictate.
A no scenario would not do them much good either.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Maybe you can explain it to me because I just don't see it.
Well for example their insistence that we couldn't even begin to discuss a trade deal until we had agreed how much we had to pay to leave.
I would have told them where to go at that stage.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Well for example their insistence that we couldn't even begin to discuss a trade deal until we had agreed how much we had to pay to leave.
I would have told them where to go at that stage.
Isn't that just a logical sequence of events in a situation like this? They aren't asking us to 'pay to leave', we have made budget commitments and have long term liabilities like pensions, clearly we have a choice whether to honour those or not. Based on that decision they then have a choice of whether they would like to work closely with us in the future.
We agreed to that structure for the negotiations many many moons ago, anything more recent?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Why do people on both sides quote these bloody stupid analogies which bear no relation to what is going on?
This analogy sums up May's attitude now pretty well in my opinion.
She is more concerned with spinning a no deal as 'not our fault' than coming up with something coherent that doesn't breach red lines that were made quite clear more than 2 years ago
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But there isn't any equivalence between the two parties. The UK is seeking to have an arrangement with 27 countries and it's up to the EU if they consider any proposed arrangement as unacceptable. The UK position all the way through has been baffling to many observers on the continent.
Unfortunately for the sake of the future reputation and electability of the Tory party no deal has to be spun to be someone else's fault. Remember when they tried to blame remainer's negativity for everything that went wrong? :hehe: The public swallowed that whole and they will do the same with 'johnny foreigner is bullying us', it plays well to that little nationalist voice inside them.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Isn't that just a logical sequence of events in a situation like this? They aren't asking us to 'pay to leave', we have made budget commitments and have long term liabilities like pensions, clearly we have a choice whether to honour those or not. Based on that decision they then have a choice of whether they would like to work closely with us in the future.
We agreed to that structure for the negotiations many many moons ago, 8anything more recent?
If you were negotiating you'ld probably have told them
"£39 billion? Oh no we owe you more than that surely"
I'd hardly call last year many moons ago either!!