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I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
I didn't vote for Starmer in the leadership elections and resigned my Labour Party membership within 6 months of his election. I found this article by the philosopher Tom Whyman in Gawker struck a chord on so many levels.
https://www.gawker.com/politics/i-hate-keir-starmer
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
I've just been reading the synopsis of Tom Whyman's book https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...by-tom-whyman/ which I think I'll have a read of as it looks like it could be just the tonic.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I didn't vote for Starmer in the leadership elections and resigned my Labour Party membership within 6 months of his election. I found this article by the philosopher Tom Whyman in Gawker struck a chord on so many levels.
https://www.gawker.com/politics/i-hate-keir-starmer
Interesting piece. I agree with most of that. Not sure he totally held my attention with the philosophical section. And I hate (!) the imported Americanism 'gotten' that he uses. But other than a few minor quibbles, he has put in words what I think too. Keir Starmer is a wet wipe!
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Interesting piece. I agree with most of that. Not sure he totally held my attention with the philosophical section. And I hate (!) the imported Americanism 'gotten' that he uses. But other than a few minor quibbles, he has put in words what I think too. Keir Starmer is a wet wipe!
I had a similar experience to you with regard to the Hotel California thing of being able to check in any time you want but you can never leave.
I ended up composing a letter and sent it to every one of the shadow cabinet, all key head office officials etc. It was only after that I stopped getting emails. In fairness, Bute Labour were really good and I had a great reply from them. Nothing from Starmer.
The sad thing is, he's not even an environmentally friendly flushable wet wipe!
I get what you mean about the style of the piece and felt it needed sub-editing but overall, it needs/needed saying.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Interesting piece. I agree with most of that. Not sure he totally held my attention with the philosophical section. And I hate (!) the imported Americanism 'gotten' that he uses. But other than a few minor quibbles, he has put in words what I think too. Keir Starmer is a wet wipe!
At least 'gotten' is old English.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Who is Sir Kier ( is it okay to refer to his elite title these days )
Where is he ??
Corbyn/Lynch axis are more in the news ??
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
At least 'gotten' is old English.
I always hoped someone would tell me that 'dude' is the Old English for a recipient of Danegeld.
Someone who has gotten backhanders?
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Who is Sir Kier ( is it okay to refer to his elite title these days )
Where is he ??
Corbyn/Lynch axis are more in the news ??
1. He's the Leader of HM Opposition.
2. He's likely to be in London
Next?
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I always hoped someone would tell me that 'dude' is the Old English for a recipient of Danegeld.
Someone who has gotten backhanders?
Try this starter from 1883 (and I can't improve the quality of the original image):
Attachment 5062
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Try this starter from 1883 (and I can't improve the quality of the original image):
Attachment 5062
Source: Chicago Tribune (although it's out of copyright)
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
I voted for him and remain reasonably happy with his leadership of the party.
Not concerned that some find him boring. We've just had three years of a clown in charge and look where that's got us. Politics is not a branch of entertainment, give me decency and competence any day of the week.
Don't forget the mess that Corbyn left. An 80 seat Tory majority and trailing 20% or more in opinion polls.
The party has a much more competent front bench as it moves to being regarded as a government in waiting rather than just a party of protest.
Lots to do and I'd like to see more dynamism and policy initiatives, which will hopefully come in the autumn via the party conference.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claude Blue
I voted for him and remain reasonably happy with his leadership of the party.
Not concerned that some find him boring. We've just had three years of a clown in charge and look where that's got us. Politics is not a branch of entertainment, give me decency and competence any day of the week.
Don't forget the mess that Corbyn left. An 80 seat Tory majority and trailing 20% or more in opinion polls.
The party has a much more competent front bench as it moves to being regarded as a government in waiting rather than just a party of protest.
Lots to do and I'd like to see more dynamism and policy initiatives, which will hopefully come in the autumn via the party conference.
I'm torn on this because I was a HUGE Corbyn fan.
In my opinion Starmer is mediocre at best and probably more suited to being a left wing member of the Tory ranks. He can't fill Jeremy's boots which of course, is a big big ask of anyone.
On the other hand, where my agreement with your synopsis lies, is that the country is not yet ready for a true left wing government so sadly we have to make a sop to the right wing to be able to have a chance in getting rid of the Tories. In that respect, paradoxically, I can sympathize with Starmer's strategy of appearing to curry favour with the right wing majority of the country.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
I'm torn on this because I was a HUGE Corbyn fan.
In my opinion Starmer is mediocre at best and probably more suited to being a left wing member of the Tory ranks. He can't fill Jeremy's boots which of course, is a big big ask of anyone.
On the other hand, where my agreement with your synopsis lies, is that the country is not yet ready for a true left wing government so sadly we have to make a sop to the right wing to be able to have a chance in getting rid of the Tories. In that respect, paradoxically, I can sympathize with Starmer's strategy of appearing to curry favour with the right wing majority of the country.
We'll have to agree to disagree on Corbyn as I don't want to fall out :hehe:
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Source: Chicago Tribune (although it's out of copyright)
:thumbup: So Dude is a corruption of Dodo!
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claude Blue
I voted for him and remain reasonably happy with his leadership of the party.
Not concerned that some find him boring. We've just had three years of a clown in charge and look where that's got us. Politics is not a branch of entertainment, give me decency and competence any day of the week.
Don't forget the mess that Corbyn left. An 80 seat Tory majority and trailing 20% or more in opinion polls.
The party has a much more competent front bench as it moves to being regarded as a government in waiting rather than just a party of protest.
Lots to do and I'd like to see more dynamism and policy initiatives, which will hopefully come in the autumn via the party conference.
I know we won't agree on Corbyn - or the reasons for the 2019 election failure - but to suggest that Starmer presents either decency or competence is beyond me. We have discussed this before, but to my mind he is an incompetent, a serial liar (not in Johnson's league - but bad enough) and (at best) an apologist and enabler of racists inside and outside the Labour Party.
Despite that a Labour government under Starmer is much better than any of the options on offer by the Tories. I will vote Labour again (as I have done at every GE since 1979) but without any enthusiasm.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I know we won't agree on Corbyn - or the reasons for the 2019 election failure - but to suggest that Starmer presents either decency or competence is beyond me. We have discussed this before, but to my mind he is an incompetent, a serial liar (not in Johnson's league - but bad enough) and (at best) an apologist and enabler of racists inside and outside the Labour Party.
Despite that a Labour government under Starmer is much better than any of the options on offer by the Tories. I will vote Labour again (as I have done at every GE since 1979) but without any enthusiasm.
It actually saddens me to read this Jon.
Again I've no desire to fall out with you but to accuse Starmer of being "an apologist and enabler of racists" whilst ignoring the behaviour of Corbyn and his acolytes is quite shocking.
I don't believe Starmer is incompetent, although the next GE will decide that.
As for being a liar - I assume because of the 10 pledges nonsense - we all need to accept that the world has moved on and that the priorities of 2020 may not be the same as now. None of us know how many of these pledges will be in the next manifesto - who knows, you maybe pleasantly surprised.
On the other hand maybe try some pragmatism and accept you wont get everything you want from any political party.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
For what it's worth, and as someone who has voted Labour, Tory and Lib Dem in recent elections, I can say I am far more likely to vote Labour with Starmer in charge. I would never have considered it under Corbyn but my vote is up for grabs now, and like it or not, it is floating voters that tend to decide elections.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
For what it's worth, and as someone who has voted Labour, Tory and Lib Dem in recent elections, I can say I am far more likely to vote Labour with Starmer in charge. I would never have considered it under Corbyn but my vote is up for grabs now, and like it or not, it is floating voters that tend to decide elections.
That's pretty much where I stand too.
I stopped reading the link in the OP half way through the second paragraph. Seemed a bit puerile to me.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
I will never vote Labour again .
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
For what it's worth, and as someone who has voted Labour, Tory and Lib Dem in recent elections, I can say I am far more likely to vote Labour with Starmer in charge. I would never have considered it under Corbyn but my vote is up for grabs now, and like it or not, it is floating voters that tend to decide elections.
This
Labour under Starmer are far more electable than under Cornyn.
The UK is predominantly centre right, and Blair gave Labour their best performances in GE by shifting to the centre.
Whenever Labour shift left they end up with dismal results in GE (Foot and Corbyn).
Whilst some may want a true left wing government, acceptance that the best we'll get is centre left may go someway to achieving some of the outcomes that are desired
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I will never vote Labour again .
Why? You have no idea what is going to happen tomorrow and what your priorities will be.
This is as myopic as those who say they'll never vote Tory.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Imagine if we had an election without the weight of the billionaire owned newspapers and media hammering Corbyn because he was the only one who would have genuinely changed things for the better.
Starmer is a liar and I'll void my vote before voting for him, may as well have another five years of conservatives if he gets in charge.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doucas
Imagine if we had an election without the weight of the billionaire owned newspapers and media hammering Corbyn because he was the only one who would have genuinely changed things for the better.
Starmer is a liar and I'll void my vote before voting for him, may as well have another five years of conservatives if he gets in charge.
Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.
The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.
Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.
But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I will never vote Labour again .
Not even if they espouse exactly the same things as they did when you previously voted for them?
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Not even if they espouse exactly the same things as they did when you previously voted for them?
I think it goes deeper and it's personal. My guess is he applied to be a Labour Councillor and was turned down or something of that ilk.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claude Blue
Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.
The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.
Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.
But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?
I agree. Increasingly, I’ve got little time for Starmer, but the Tories used to talk about putting “clear, blue water” between them and Labour, well this lot have put oceans of it between the two thanks in main to Johnson’s purge of some of the restraining elements on the One Nation wing of his party over Brexit (the nutters who complain about a “Remainers Brexit” are the driving force within the Conservatives now). Starmer’s not perfect, but his Government would not be like a mark 2 of this one - I would like to see Labour start to prove this by being more proactive about their own policies though.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Why do you guys believe that any Labour government is always better than a Tory one? I don't. I think sensible countries flick between centre-right and centre-left every ten years or so. Which is what makes Wales such an outlier.
We've had a Labour government wholly in charge of education here for 23 years now. My kids currently going through the system, many others on here too. What is really better about it? The rhetoric is that Labour is better for poorer people, but is there that much evidence of that, certainly in terms of education anyway? Strikes me that if you are poorer then you have more life opportunities in England than Wales. Perhaps this idea that 'any labour govt will be better than Truss / Sunak' needs reconsidering?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-29688799
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claude Blue
Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.
The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.
Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.
But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?
What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doucas
What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.
Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism
Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.
Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.
You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doucas
What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.
Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.
At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).
To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.
It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
I'm sorry but if nobody can tell me how he's different from the tories, or how the specifics about how he will help workers or the vulnerable I simply can't vote for him. To me he is a tory.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.
At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).
To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.
It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.
This sounds a bit sinister..
Wales has been Labour run since 1999. What is better here? How far down the line of being educated are we?
"Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being."
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DryCleaning
Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism
Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.
Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.
You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.
You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.
The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.
The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.
The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.
The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.
Come off it Jon, you're old enough to know how politics works. Just like Truss and Sunak now, Starmer had to appeal to a selectorate in order to win the leadership. That mean't having to go along with a lot of the 2017 and 2019 manifestos, despite the party losing both elections. He may or may not apply them to the party's manifesto next time. Hopefully the party draws up that manifesto based on what is relevant and practical for that time - not x number of years ago.
I do get fed up of the nonsense about the 2017 GE. The facts are simple, the Labour party lost. The Tories got, if memory serves, a million more votes than Labour. Theresa May ran the worst Tory campaign in living memory and still Corbyn lost to her. Stacking up votes in already safe seats will not give you a majority, nor will targeting certain high profile Tory MP's seats for vanity and attention seeking reasons c.f. the ridiculous Owen Jones "flash bombing" Boris Johnsons Uxbridge constituency.
WRT the popular policies narrative, you will, I'm sure, be aware that whilst popular individually that popularity diminishes when they're all put together as voters start to question practicalities and, above all, the cost.
The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one on steroids with further spending commitments added during the campaign and the party was humiliated.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.
The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.
The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.
I'm not agreeing that the 10 pledges were nonsense, and i dont believe CB was either. I'm saying that a manifesto defined pre covid may not be relevant today. You don't have to be blessed with too much intelligence to understand this.
You would prefer to stick with your ideals and that's your prerogative. But ideals don't win elections, policies and manifestos have to be grounded in realism if you want to win over the electorate
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Claude Blue
The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one on steroids with further spending commitments added during the campaign and the party was humiliated.
The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.
It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.
And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.
He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.
It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.
And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.
He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.
Who would you like to see at the helm, Jon?
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiss Peter
Who would you like to see at the helm, Jon?
If the Labour Party remains a 'broad church social democratic party' with organisational, political and financial roots in the trade union movement, I would be happy to see a unity leader who could draw support from all sides like Andy Burnham. He is of the 'soft left' as I think it was once called, is experienced in Westminster (Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet), refused to take part in the Chicken Coup against Corbyn, and has shown the scope for local/regional political and social action as Mayor of Greater Manchester. I think he has credibility, experience and the skills needed to hold the PLP and wider Labour Party together.
Burnham can't stand at the moment under the current rules as he isn't an MP. I would also prefer to see Labour finally electing a woman as leader. But I think he is the best bet.
The Labour left don't have any obvious candidates. Some have the same strengths and weaknesses as Corbyn (great campaigners and communicators with live audiences, but poor as party managers or at the Westminster ritual). I like Clive Lewis, Dawn Butler and a wider group of younger (often black and female) Campaign Group MPs - but they don't tick enough boxes to survive.
If the FPTP system is dumped for PR, and at the same time Labour cuts its ties to the trades union movement, my automatic support for Labour would be gone. In that situation I would back the British Melenchon - whoever that might be.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
If the Labour Party remains a 'broad church social democratic party' with organisational, political and financial roots in the trade union movement, I would be happy to see a unity leader who could draw support from all sides like Andy Burnham. He is of the 'soft left' as I think it was once called, is experienced in Westminster (Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet), refused to take part in the Chicken Coup against Corbyn, and has shown the scope for local/regional political and social action as Mayor of Greater Manchester. I think he has credibility, experience and the skills needed to hold the PLP and wider Labour Party together.
Burnham can't stand at the moment under the current rules as he isn't an MP. I would also prefer to see Labour finally electing a woman as leader. But I think he is the best bet.
The Labour left don't have any obvious candidates. Some have the same strengths and weaknesses as Corbyn (great campaigners and communicators with live audiences, but poor as party managers or at the Westminster ritual). I like Clive Lewis, Dawn Butler and a wider group of younger (often black and female) Campaign Group MPs - but they don't tick enough boxes to survive.
If the FPTP system is dumped for PR, and at the same time Labour cuts its ties to the trades union movement, my automatic support for Labour would be gone. In that situation I would back the British Melenchon - whoever that might be.
Thanks for the response. Interesting to read.
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Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I would also prefer to see Labour finally electing a woman as leader.
I have to ask why? Surely you want the best person for the role, and that may be a man or woman.