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Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
A three-person panel of judges, headed by Lady Justice Heather Hallett, is hearing the appeal, which is scheduled to last until Wednesday.
What do you think the outcome will be? I think he's innocent but I'm not sure how this will turn out depends on what this new evidence is I suppose.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
I think he's definitely guilty of being a creep, out sober after really drunk girls but I'm unsure if he's guilty of rape. I think he'll still be found guilty though as I can't see the verdict being overturned because the videos they have of the girl in the reception show her looking hammered.
Plus the sneaking out the fire escape doesn't scream innocence to a jury either.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
I think he's definitely guilty of being a creep, out sober after really drunk girls but I'm unsure if he's guilty of rape. I think he'll still be found guilty though as I can't see the verdict being overturned because the videos they have of the girl in the reception show her looking hammered.
Plus the sneaking out the fire escape doesn't scream innocence to a jury either.
It's true the girl did look hammered but if that were the case why did the other bloke receive a not guilty verdict? Evans was treated harshly and, despite being a creep, he should not have been convicted.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
I think he's definitely guilty of being a creep, out sober after really drunk girls but I'm unsure if he's guilty of rape. I think he'll still be found guilty though as I can't see the verdict being overturned because the videos they have of the girl in the reception show her looking hammered.
Plus the sneaking out the fire escape doesn't scream innocence to a jury either.
You always say he was out sober. I've pointed out to you a number of times that he was drinking, easily found in the court notes you once claimed to have read.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
He was out drinking but wasn't drunk according to the reports.
I think it's irrelevant anyway, as I said I'm unsure if he's guilty of rape but the if the girl was in the state that has been presented I think it's at very best very creepy behaviour and could see how it could be rape.
I think he'll still be found guilty, rape convictions are notoriously difficult to get so they must have been quite sure the first time round and I haven't seen any extra evidence that shows otherwise.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
He's probably innocent of rape but will probably be found guilty
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Well if she was too drunk to consent that was rape, not a violent rape of attacking a girl on the street but still rape according to the law.
http://footylaw.co.uk/2015/01/06/che...from-fiction/#
I don't think Evans is an evil guy but I do think under the law he'll probably be convicted as a rapist. Consent is a very important thing and you can't be too careful.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vindec
It's true the girl did look hammered but if that were the case why did the other bloke receive a not guilty verdict? Evans was treated harshly and, despite being a creep, he should not have been convicted.
Because the girl obviously went voluntarily to the hotel with "the other bloke".
What she obviously didn't agree too was, "the other bloke", telephoning Ched Evans to come to the room and rape her.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
I don't think the girl looked that drunk in the video, but it's not easy to tell really.
The thing is, none of us can know whether once Evans was in the room the girl consented or not, and she doesn't know either apparently as she can't remember anything. On that basis isn't it his word against her saying she can't remember?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
He's a rapist
No probably no might be
HE IS
and I've not watch THE VIDEO or been brainwashed by bullshit talk
12 members of the jury found him guilty
He lost his first Appeal
And all of a sudden new evidence has appeared 4 years later
He won't get off IMHO
Guilty as charged.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tigerbaybluebird
He's a rapist
No probably no might be
HE IS
and I've not watch THE VIDEO or been brainwashed by bullshit talk
12 members of the jury found him guilty
He lost his first Appeal
And all of a sudden new evidence has appeared 4 years later
He won't get off IMHO
Guilty as charged.
Well not necessarily, if he is found innocent then he is innocent end of, but I can't see that happening.
I think the girl was so pissed she wouldn't remember whether she give consent or not. I do agree Dirty Ched is a creepy fuker mind, fancy going down on some bird after your mate has smashed the guts out of her
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Auntie Andy
Because the girl obviously went voluntarily to the hotel with "the other bloke".
What she obviously didn't agree too was, "the other bloke", telephoning Ched Evans to come to the room and rape her.
Well, indeed. That still seems to be the crux of it.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Auntie Andy
Because the girl obviously went voluntarily to the hotel with "the other bloke".
What she obviously didn't agree too was, "the other bloke", telephoning Ched Evans to come to the room and rape her.
does going to a hotel room imply consent?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tommy31
does going to a hotel room imply consent?
Surely it certainly doesn't imply consent to 'another person being phoned to come round and join in' - especially after she had got increasingly worse for drink .
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vimana.
Surely it certainly doesn't imply consent to 'another person being phoned to come round and join in' - especially after she had got increasingly worse for drink .
BUT
she cannot remember any of it happening, so she cannot remember consenting or not
Yes Ched is a wrong un, but how many other blokes would have been tempted to " have a go " with her if she was encouraging it ? ? ?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vimana.
Surely it certainly doesn't imply consent to 'another person being phoned to come round and join in' - especially after she had got increasingly worse for drink .
nope, you're right it doesnt. but does it imply consent with the fella she was chatting to in a bar?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
I know one of the people who investigated all aspects of the investigation, he believes that the new evidence will ensure that the verdict will be overturned
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
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Originally Posted by
neilw65
I know one of the people who investigated all aspects of the investigation, he believes that the new evidence will ensure that the verdict will be overturned
What is the new evidence?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tommy31
nope, you're right it doesnt. but does it imply consent with the fella she was chatting to in a bar?
I'm not sure that it specifically implies consent for sex, and at any time either party should be able to say that they dont actually want sex after all. Maybe Consent is an ongoing notion?
But 'going to a hotel room' with someone after a night out... ?
Most of us wouldn't imagine it would likely be to play scrabble.
But actual Consent to definite sex, it surely isn't.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vimana.
I'm not sure that it specifically implies consent for sex, and at any time either party should be able to say that they dont actually want sex after all. Maybe Consent is an ongoing notion?
But 'going to a hotel room' with someone after a night out... ?
Most of us wouldn't imagine it would likely be to play scrabble.
But actual Consent to definite sex, it surely isn't.
right, glad we cleared that up. So it makes no difference as to whether he was out with her prior or not.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vimana.
I'm not sure that it specifically implies consent for sex, and at any time either party should be able to say that they dont actually want sex after all. Maybe Consent is an ongoing notion?
But 'going to a hotel room' with someone after a night out... ?
Most of us wouldn't imagine it would likely be to play scrabble.
But actual Consent to definite sex, it surely isn't.
Nobody can definitely say there wasn't consent though can they?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
Nobody can definitely say there wasn't consent though can they?
On the other hand Macdonald said there definitely was consent.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
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Originally Posted by
TruBlue
On the other hand Macdonald said there definitely was consent.
Do we know if there was (still) consent right at the point where sex commenced?
If so, then that is all there is to it between her and Macdonald - at that time.
However, 'how about it then'? - yeah OK' in a bar sometime earlier doesn't stand as 'in the bag' for Macdonald for the rest of whole night. (let alone 'phone a friend').
She can change her mind. (as can he!)
Only if that consent is revoked or expired or doesn't cover 'other events' does it become something more sinister.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BobbyBlue
A three-person panel of judges, headed by Lady Justice Heather Hallett, is hearing the appeal, which is scheduled to last until Wednesday.
What do you think the outcome will be? I think he's innocent but I'm not sure how this will turn out depends on what this new evidence is I suppose.
Unlucky Ched me ol' china.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
He wasn't convicted by 12 members of the jury - it was a majority verdict - not all found him guilty.
The judge insisted on a majority when it was not unnanamous because if they had gone back to look at the evidence again it would have gone in for another week
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vimana.
Do we know if there was (still) consent right at the point where sex commenced?
If so, then that is all there is to it between her and Macdonald - at that time.
However, 'how about it then'? - yeah OK' in a bar sometime earlier doesn't stand as 'in the bag' for Macdonald for the rest of whole night. (let alone 'phone a friend').
She can change her mind. (as can he!)
Only if that consent is revoked or expired or doesn't cover 'other events' does it become something more sinister.
I was referring to consent with Evans according to Macdonald.
I seem to remember the court papers saying she couldn't remember, which is different to saying "no". Especially when the only other witnesses say she did consent.
The part that sits most uncomfortably is that the emphasis was onto Evans to decide how sober she was, when it's proved she hadn't been drugged so it was stuff she'd drunk. If she is comatose then yes he's clearly a rapist, if she's drunk and consenting I think it's down to the individual.
The whole thing leaves more questions than answers.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
The prosecution case apparently had holes all the way through it, was inconsistent regarding the other bloke being let off, the girl didn't appear 'hammered' on the video, and the new evidence has been talked about in very strong terms since the middle of last year. The girl also didn't help her case when she allegedly gloated on FB the following morning about making a load of money from this event and even offering to take friends on luxury holidays with the proceeds. That was quickly deleted, but I wonder if this constitutes some of the new evidence that's been reported?
On the moral side, Ched had everything going for him at that time and so the mind boggles why he'd feel the need to get himself anywhere near such a situation. With his fame and profession, he shouldn't have had any problems finding consensual ladies to get aquainted with.
Even failing that, on his salary he could've easily hired as many high class escorts as he liked. A bizarre situation all round but hopefully the fully truth will now come out and the right decision will be arrived at, whether that be a rejection of his appeal or upholding the original conviction.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steve R
Unlucky Ched me ol' china.
Good spot Jeff.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
I've read the transcript of the original trial.
Ched incriminated himself. The girl had absolutely no memory of going to or being in the hotel. She woke up with no idea how she had got to the hotel, having wet the bed.
The hotel staff called the police who then found the two footballers. Clayton McDonald and Ched both told the police that CM had been having sex with the girl when Ched asked if he could join in and both CM and CE said that the girl had enthusiastically said "yes."
This has not been disputed. Ched was convicted because the prosecution contended that even if the girl has said "yes" she was way too drunk to know what she was doing.
The digital evidence was not Facebook it was Twitter. A New York firefighter who had become involved in the 911 "truther" movement happened to read about this case and did some investigation. He found, in google's French cache of Twitter posts, tweets from the girl about "winning big."
http://chedevans.com/the-disputed-tweets
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Which of us hasn't gone out on the lash on a Saturday night and hooked up with a girl? Any Friday/Saturday night most of the people pouring out of clubs are half-pissed, and we've ALL done something after a few beers that we might not have if we'd been sober.
None of us really know what went on, and what, if anything, was agreed between the relevant parties, but I'm glad I'm a happily married middle-aged man, otherwise I'd be worried about going anywhere with a girl unless she'd passed a drink/drugs test and signed a contract.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
What is the new evidence?
As Arfur Europe said below, the investigation by the police was fundamentally flawed as well as the way the defence was conducted. He reviewed the conviction, tracked down new evidence and potential new witnesses.
This person was a police officer with 30 years service who has investigated serious crimes and led investigations into rape and sexual offence cases. As I said, he firmly believes that Ched Evans is Innocent of rape and I would suggest that with his knowledge and background, he would have a better understanding than most of us on this board
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
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Originally Posted by
blue sky
I've read the transcript of the original trial.
Ched incriminated himself. The girl had absolutely no memory of going to or being in the hotel. She woke up with no idea how she had got to the hotel, having wet the bed.
The hotel staff called the police who then found the two footballers. Clayton McDonald and Ched both told the police that CM had been having sex with the girl when Ched asked if he could join in and both CM and CE said that the girl had enthusiastically said "yes."
This has not been disputed. Ched was convicted because the prosecution contended that even if the girl has said "yes" she was way too drunk to know what she was doing.
The digital evidence was not Facebook it was Twitter. A New York firefighter who had become involved in the 911 "truther" movement happened to read about this case and did some investigation. He found, in google's French cache of Twitter posts, tweets from the girl about "winning big."
http://chedevans.com/the-disputed-tweets
The tweets were 5 months after the event, the girl could have been talking about anything.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
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Originally Posted by
neilw65
This person was a police officer with 30 years service who has investigated serious crimes and led investigations into rape and sexual offence cases. As I said, he firmly believes that Ched Evans is Innocent of rape and I would suggest that with his knowledge and background, he would have a better understanding than most of us on this board
you must be crazy, dont you know CCMB have every leading expert in every field on here :biggrin:
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
The woman in charge of hearing the case was responsible for over turning Sam Hallams prosecution - the youngest person to have a mis-carriage overturned...
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Here's the appeal court transcript of the original trial:
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-...-chedwyn-evans
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Agreed, but, she could have also been talking about stitching up a footballer
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
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Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
Agreed, but, she could have also been talking about stitching up a footballer
Could be this, could be that ... which makes it pretty weak evidence if it can't be shown what she was referring to.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nelsonca61
Agreed, but, she could have also been talking about stitching up a footballer
But the compensation she would receive doesn't depend on the income of the person committing the crime?
As said above Ched's undoing was his own fault because his statement incriminated him.
People always say we've all done this on a night out, but have we really? I've slept with plenty of women but never one who was too smashed to concent. I can't think of anything worse than shagging someone that drunk.
I think the notion of concent is what confuses most people, if a girl is in no fit state to make a decision then even saying yes doesn't really count as consent.
I do feel sorry for Ched though, such a silly mistake to make and one that could ruin his life. Surely as a footballer it's easy to pull a really fit girl anyway without going through the weird shenanigans him and his pal went through? I mean it's easy enough to pull a decent girl without being rich and famous ffs, why footballers keep putting themselves in compromising positions like this is beyond me.
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
But the compensation she would receive doesn't depend on the income of the person committing the crime?
As said above Ched's undoing was his own fault because his statement incriminated him.
People always say we've all done this on a night out, but have we really? I've slept with plenty of women but never one who was too smashed to concent. I can't think of anything worse than shagging someone that drunk.
I think the notion of concent is what confuses most people, if a girl is in no fit state to make a decision then even saying yes doesn't really count as consent.
I do feel sorry for Ched though, such a silly mistake to make and one that could ruin his life. Surely as a footballer it's easy to pull a really fit girl anyway without going through the weird shenanigans him and his pal went through? I mean it's easy enough to pull a decent girl without being rich and famous ffs, why footballers keep putting themselves in compromising positions like this is beyond me.
If you've shagged a girl who has been drinking and said yes to it, you are putting yourself at the same risk as Evans is claiming to have done.
How could you know if she is going to remember it the next morning?
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Re: Dirty Ched, The Verdict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
But the compensation she would receive doesn't depend on the income of the person committing the crime?
As said above Ched's undoing was his own fault because his statement incriminated him.
People always say we've all done this on a night out, but have we really? I've slept with plenty of women but never one who was too smashed to concent. I can't think of anything worse than shagging someone that drunk.
I think the notion of concent is what confuses most people, if a girl is in no fit state to make a decision then even saying yes doesn't really count as consent.
I do feel sorry for Ched though, such a silly mistake to make and one that could ruin his life. Surely as a footballer it's easy to pull a really fit girl anyway without going through the weird shenanigans him and his pal went through? I mean it's easy enough to pull a decent girl without being rich and famous ffs, why footballers keep putting themselves in compromising positions like this is beyond me.
Well if she's comatose then obviously she can't consent, but if she's just had a few sherbets, bearing in mind you have too, how could you possibly tell, beyond all doubt, that she knows what she's doing? How could you possibly know that if she was sober, she wouldn't want to?
I know I've slept with women and woken up wishing I hadn't.