Brexit Redux Latest ?

I had switched off recently with so much political point scoring going on ,between parties , within parties, and lets not forget the barriers erected by Europe.


I am so confused by recent events , if we have a soft Brexit , it means we go against all those no voters and it could devastate a party at the next election if we remain partly in , not able too control all our laws , along with freedom of movement is still upon us and were handing over Billions still ,eeek . :facepalm::facepalm:

Yes it's all the other parties fault oh and er dont forget to blame Europe for having a coherent strong negotiating position. The Tory party held the referendum, the Tory party had a leadership election to choose the best person to lead brexit, the Tory party had an election to further establish their mandate.

Labour have no answers on brexit but even if they had a fantastic consistent message it would be completely ignored by both the government and the media.

Long term if the conservatives escape this shit storm by blaming a combination of remainers/europe/other parties we will know once and for all that the game is rigged and the media have absolutely no interest in what is best for the people of this country.

Where are all the prominent brexiteers from the campaign? Why are they not banging the door down with their utopian vision anymore? Reality is they are biding their time waiting to emerge from under their rocks to exclaim 'well if brexit had been implemented properly it would have been an incredible success!'

They said themselves they would be publishing a white paper detailing their negotiating position. Even they don't use the tired 'never reveal your hand' line anymore, they know that expired a year ago. They should know what they are asking for by now and they haven't the foggiest.

Interesting position of yours though, absolutely crucial that the opposition detail exactly their position but the government can keep it zipped? I can't really see the point when they aren't involved in the negotiations.

The real reason we don't know about the government's position is that they themselves don't know what it is yet, when did we trigger article 50 again?

What exactly could our negotiating hand be that the EU won't already know?

It's dazzlingly clear that the government don't know what they're doing or what they want. Labour would be just as useless before anyone thinks I'm being partisan. The can is being kicked down the road.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

It's not Labour doing the negotiating though is it - so they can say what they want (like they do in opposition) promising the scrapping of tuition fees springs to mind, buy hey ho.

Labour saying what they would do re brexit is about as relevant as someone posting their political policies on here - and expecting the opposition to take note.

I wont waste any more breath on worrying about it, or even thinking that the powers that be will be worrying what I think - I think they have bigger fish to fry Eric.

You could always write a Dear Jeremy letter to the gracious leader and see if he'll read it out at next weeks PMQ's - actually - thinking about it - Eric - please do it and see what happens.

I can hear it now in Parliament - "I have a letter here from Eric" (says a forlorn Jeremy) , Eric writes, Dear Jeremy my policy for Brexit is ... fill in details here..... when will the Govt listen to my policies, as they clearly have none of their own they want to tell us.... mad waving of papers on the opposition benches.....

Yours
Eric from the message board'

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Are you okay?

You devoted most of your response to my post to discussing the Labour position on brexit, now you say 'stop talking about it, it is irrelevant'. Very strange.

Double post

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Originally Posted by lardy

What exactly could our negotiating hand be that the EU won't already know?

It's dazzlingly clear that the government don't know what they're doing or what they want. Labour would be just as useless before anyone thinks I'm being partisan. The can is being kicked down the road.

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EU will think we have a formalised position on the major issues but TM and the government have played a blinder and completely fooled them by not having a clue what they want.

You are right though, the variables are all out in the open.

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Originally Posted by lardy

What exactly could our negotiating hand be that the EU won't already know?

It's dazzlingly clear that the government don't know what they're doing or what they want. Labour would be just as useless before anyone thinks I'm being partisan. The can is being kicked down the road.

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My thoughts as well its not rocket science to know what we want,didn't Dave Boy try that one , with freedom of movement thing and failed , I have always thought that the soft Brexit crew ( who never had a top 10 hit by the way ) are using Michel Barnier and he is using them to disrupt both parties to force a breakdown and force an election .

I do wonder though if JC moved aside and Kier Stamer stepped up and declared their position to stay in the customs union it may bring Labour victory albeit a tight one ,however I do wonder if they would see a shift in voting intentions where they may lose some in their anti European traditional heart lands and win more in the south west /east ,now if they were canny , they could be in power and then try and win back the heartlands gradually by imposing stronger migration rules .

This is a huge gamble and part of me thinks the public are being used for just political gain ,whereby a decent set of MP's should come together for such important matters like this , and that of say NHS and Rail ,it should be above party polices not used as a weapon.

And yes that all parties ,not one of them is telling the truth .

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

It's not Labour doing the negotiating though is it - so they can say what they want (like they do in opposition) promising the scrapping of tuition fees springs to mind, buy hey ho.

Labour saying what they would do re brexit is about as relevant as someone posting their political policies on here - and expecting the opposition to take note.

I wont waste any more breath on worrying about it, or even thinking that the powers that be will be worrying what I think - I think they have bigger fish to fry Eric.

You could always write a Dear Jeremy letter to the gracious leader and see if he'll read it out at next weeks PMQ's - actually - thinking about it - Eric - please do it and see what happens.

I can hear it now in Parliament - "I have a letter here from Eric" (says a forlorn Jeremy) , Eric writes, Dear Jeremy my policy for Brexit is ... fill in details here..... when will the Govt listen to my policies, as they clearly have none of their own they want to tell us.... mad waving of papers on the opposition benches.....

Yours
Eric from the message board'

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And yet again, you make a thread which, surely, is more relevant to the Government than Labour (they are the Government after all) into another opportunity to have a go at the opposition party and it's leader - have a look at this from today's PMQs and tell me how you can have any confidence in the Government's ability to handle Brexit even adequately?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi_Jyb4HTcA

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Variables, routes to market, etc yes they are all out in the open (statement of the bleeding obvious)
What is unknown to the EU is what route / variables we take.

As for strange - the only thing strange is posting a question on Brexit and then expecting to find the 'utopian' answer.
Maybe before the end of the afternoon we will have found a cure for cancer, come up with a policy to reduce the deficit and pay off the debt - as well as find time to fix conflict in Syria :shrug::popcorn::sherlock:

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I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't talking about brexiteers on here, unless you or others on here consider yourselves prominent brexiteers?

There was a very confident brexit campaign led by a load of politicians who have now detached themselves from any responsibility to deliver what they promised everybody. They sold the idea that we could cherrypick from our current arrangement with the EU, they have vanished into thin air and now we hear brexit is failing because of Europe, remainers and labour/lib Dems. Why didn't they fancy being there to implement their vision?

It is a pretty fair request no? If someone is passionate about an issue they should see it through to the end.

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Originally Posted by lardy

What exactly could our negotiating hand be that the EU won't already know?

It's dazzlingly clear that the government don't know what they're doing or what they want. Labour would be just as useless before anyone thinks I'm being partisan. The can is being kicked down the road.

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May has never had any intention of leaving the EU. It says more about you if you think it's dazzlingly clear that the government don't know what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Eric - we all know what happened - when it came to it, Boris,Gove did a runner, Ledsome soon realised she was a non starter etc.
I wish (really wish) that both conservatives and Labour could come to an agreement and get on with it. To me, it seems Labour will oppose everything just for the sake of opposing it, conservatives say A - Labour will demand B - just for the sake of it - (conservatives would probably do the same)

The reality of it is Corbyn is a brexiter (voted against it from the start back in 74) , McDonell is also the same. The majority of Labour seem to be remain - even though their constituents voted out in large numbers (apart from London and Scotland). You have similar issues with the conservatives. Which is why Brexit shouldnt be about Lab or Con and each side shouldnt be looking to score stupid points just for the sake of it, Lords included.

The vote was out, some appear to have trouble handling democracy (thats for another debate)

When May called that election last year - that was Labours chance to make it a general election referendum, Corbyn should have said vote Labour and we'll have a second referendum immediately, or at least said something which gave Remainers the chance to force issues post that GE. But he didnt - that was a mistake in my book, he would have had at least 48% of the vote and maybe more if people had changed their minds in the interim.

The end result as I think it will pan out. We wont be in 'the' customs union, probably 'a' customs union which allows for certain areas. Hopefully basic economics will push aside Junkcer and the rest of the mafia racket. They want to sell us 'stuff', we want to buy 'stuff' from them. If the EU block car sales, cheese, wine etc then good luck telling the French farmers they are going to lose money - as we import from non EU countries without having EU tariffs applied - cheaper food - amen to that.

I think if you asked Farage, Rees Mogg, and any other Out politician - they would happily deliver their 'vision' on what was voted for - which was Leave the EU (and everything else attached to it) , if you want to re-attach certain aspects - then that is the negotiation, which is happening now . Both sides have bartering points.

More questions than answers, but was it ever going to any different ?

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I think Farage, Rees Mogg, etc are more than happy to shout from the sidelines without having any of the responsibility.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Eric - we all know what happened - when it came to it, Boris,Gove did a runner, Ledsome soon realised she was a non starter etc.

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They all fell on their swords and handed the Tory leadership to May on a plate, and all were rewarded for their kind deeds :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

And yet again, you make a thread which, surely, is more relevant to the Government than Labour (they are the Government after all) into another opportunity to have a go at the opposition party and it's leader - have a look at this from today's PMQs and tell me how you can have any confidence in the Government's ability to handle Brexit even adequately?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi_Jyb4HTcA

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She's lost the plot!

I heard something may be forthcoming regarding the current political landscape ..

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

She's lost the plot!

I heard something may be forthcoming regarding the current political landscape ..

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You couldn't be less specific could you?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

You couldn't be less specific could you?

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I'll tell you when it's confirmed.

Thanks Wales Bale’s, White House and Whitehall insider you certainly get about!

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Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2

Thanks Wales Bale’s, White House and Whitehall insider you certainly get about!

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The source is a Conservative media ITK person, he hasn't disclosed anything further. I'm guessing an impending leadership challenge?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

She's lost the plot!

I heard something may be forthcoming regarding the current political landscape ..

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Something may happen? Goodness me, you are most well informed, I'm amazed you're giving us this classified chat for free.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

She's lost the plot!

I heard something may be forthcoming regarding the current political landscape ..

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Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest after that "performance" yesterday - Corbyn isn't much good when it comes to PMQS, but it was painful to watch May yesterday and I say that as someone well to the left politically.

The press weren't impressed either;-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-win-on-brexit

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-country.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...stions-corbyn/

Hardly a surprise from the first one of course, but the second two are pretty devastating when you consider the papers involved.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

They all fell on their swords and handed the Tory leadership to May on a plate, and all were rewarded for their kind deeds :biggrin:

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You can add David Davis to the list, he's fallen on his sword in your odd fantasy world where all Tories are queuing up to destroy their careers just to botch brexit.

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Originally Posted by lardy

You can add David Davis to the list, he's fallen on his sword in your odd fantasy world where all Tories are queuing up to destroy their careers just to botch brexit.

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Looks like he's just stopped short on this occasion.

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Originally Posted by lardy

You can add David Davis to the list, he's fallen on his sword in your odd fantasy world where all Tories are queuing up to destroy their careers just to botch brexit.

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You don't think the post-referendum Tory leadership challenge was odd?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

You don't think the post-referendum Tory leadership challenge was odd?

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Odd and planned are not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Odd and planned are not the same thing.

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Are you saying it wasn't planned?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The source is a Conservative media ITK person, he hasn't disclosed anything further. I'm guessing an impending leadership challenge?

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It was Iain Dale the LBC broadcaster inferring Davis was about to quit. As it happens Davis didn’t quit because he is a vain, lazy stupid twat.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

It was Iain Dale the LBC broadcaster inferring Davis was about to quit. As it happens Davis didn’t quit because he is a vain, lazy stupid twat.

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That would have been an interesting development. I still feel there might be another leadership challenge at some point.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Are you saying it wasn't planned?

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Not in the way you have suggested.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Not in the way you have suggested.

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Just incompetence that worked out very well completely by chance?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Just incompetence that worked out very well completely by chance?

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What has worked out well?

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Originally Posted by lardy

What has worked out well?

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The current omnishambles :biggrin:

Even the one who was accused of embellishing their CV making them supposedly unfit to hold office, got to be Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The current omnishambles :biggrin:

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Just to be clear, the current omnishambles, including Boris's leaked comments today, are all planned and have worked out well?