Labour's sad Wales Bill

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08-03-16, 14:02
blue sky

Labour's sad Wales Bill

http://welshrants.blogspot.co.uk/
09-03-16, 17:11
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

I can see why plaid don't want more devolution though, it's very clear. Do you want Welsh labour to have more power? judging by how it's gone with the limited power they've got at the moment, it doesnt fill me with desire for more.... however, if we had a capable government (irrelevant of colour), then it would be a different story.
09-03-16, 17:23
Claude Blue

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue sky

http://welshrants.blogspot.co.uk/

Rather a sad little article.

Usual nationalist nonsense, critical but failing to offer a genuine alternative.

Apart from a pointless north/south road!!
09-03-16, 17:28
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Rather a sad little article.

Usual nationalist nonsense, critical but failing to offer a genuine alternative.

Apart from a pointless north/south road!!

do you know of any other country in europe without a road connecting the north and the south?
09-03-16, 17:35
blue sky

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy31

do you know of any other country in europe without a road connecting the north and the south?

Do you know of any other country in the world without a good road connecting north and south?
09-03-16, 17:53
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue sky

Do you know of any other country in the world without a good road connecting north and south?

yep. fancy answering my question now?
09-03-16, 18:12
Claude Blue

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Are you seriously suggesting that such a road is required?
09-03-16, 18:16
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

I dont see any reason why it would be disadvantageous to have a road connecting two parts of the country. Can you?
09-03-16, 19:00
Claude Blue

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Not disadvantageous but unnecessary unless you think money grows on trees.
09-03-16, 20:12
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

any reasons you think its unnecessary? or just, y'know, cos you do?
09-03-16, 20:25
Claude Blue

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Surely it's up to those who advocate this north/south road to give their reasons for wanting it?

I doubt that there's sufficient demand for the billions it would cost.
10-03-16, 00:04
Eric the Half a Bee

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Plaid have ditched their bids for independence and more language powers because they would be unpopular. They realise that if they are to compete in Wales they have to ditch all things nationalism and focus on proper issues that affect most people. People still see through this and no matter what they promise in manifestos (they can promise whatever they like, they'll never get elected and be forced to implement their promises), their links with nationalism is still the biggest turn off Plaid have.
10-03-16, 09:26
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Surely it's up to those who advocate this north/south road to give their reasons for wanting it?

I doubt that there's sufficient demand for the billions it would cost.

it would be, but as there is no one here advocating it, why don't you give us some reasons why you don't want one?
10-03-16, 10:46
Claude Blue

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy31

it would be, but as there is no one here advocating it, why don't you give us some reasons why you don't want one?

The chap in the article linked to by the OP is advocating it, hence my comment.

My reason for not advocating it is solely on the basis of cost. If there's any research out there that suggests that it would be cost effective and beneficial to Wales then I'd happily change my mind.
10-03-16, 11:20
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude Blue

The chap in the article linked to by the OP is advocating it, hence my comment.

My reason for not advocating it is solely on the basis of cost. If there's any research out there that suggests that it would be cost effective and beneficial to Wales then I'd happily change my mind.

fair enough. Has there been any research into what such a road would bring? I would be interested to read about it
10-03-16, 11:39
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Plaid have ditched their bids for independence and more language powers because they would be unpopular. They realise that if they are to compete in Wales they have to ditch all things nationalism and focus on proper issues that affect most people. People still see through this and no matter what they promise in manifestos (they can promise whatever they like, they'll never get elected and be forced to implement their promises), their links with nationalism is still the biggest turn off Plaid have.

I wouldn't say paid have ditched their bid for independence, more playing the long game and looking at independence as a long term goal. The goal right now is to make a wales that has a better NHS and better economic performance. These are things that all parties want, but having had one of those in charge for 17 years with no progress, I think it's time for a change. As for language powers, I think you'll find that every party (even UKIP) has the same policy on the welsh language.
10-03-16, 23:50
Eric the Half a Bee

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy31

I wouldn't say paid have ditched their bid for independence, more playing the long game and looking at independence as a long term goal. The goal right now is to make a wales that has a better NHS and better economic performance. These are things that all parties want, but having had one of those in charge for 17 years with no progress, I think it's time for a change. As for language powers, I think you'll find that every party (even UKIP) has the same policy on the welsh language.

Yes, you are right. Plaid are trying to keep the issue of independence schtum. Given that less than 10% of the population want independence it's a wise move, but Plaid still have the stigma of wanting independence in the long term over them, which will turn away voters, even if they keep as silent about the issue as they are at present.

Not all parties have the same policy on the Welsh language. Plaid have suggested they want the entire foundation phase taught only in Welsh - utter nonsense, totally impractical and likely to cause a load of problems. If Plaid were in power there's little doubt that they would ensure Welsh got priority over any other language. Given that Wales has had less than 50% Welsh speakers for at least a century and a half, there's hardly any protocol to suggest Welsh would have priority. We're a bilingual country where the main language spoken by virtually everyone is arguably the biggest language in the world if we talk globally.

I've had the pleasure this week of being involved with a number of Urdd eisteddfodau. I'm appalled by the number of competitors from English medium schools, hardly any. Imagine how much better such a competition could be if it encompassed everyone in Wales and had no language boundaries. There's always been a bias towards kids from welsh medium schools to the point where the others don't bother. It hardly makes Eisteddfodau truly representative of Wales as a whole, unfortunately. Most people couldn't give a shit. Sad, really.
11-03-16, 19:14
life on mars

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Are you seriously suggesting that such a road is required?

I'd like a ring road circling our coastlines, imagine the views, and attraction it would generate for tourists.
13-03-16, 15:19
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Yes, you are right. Plaid are trying to keep the issue of independence schtum. Given that less than 10% of the population want independence it's a wise move, but Plaid still have the stigma of wanting independence in the long term over them, which will turn away voters, even if they keep as silent about the issue as they are at present.

Not all parties have the same policy on the Welsh language. Plaid have suggested they want the entire foundation phase taught only in Welsh - utter nonsense, totally impractical and likely to cause a load of problems. If Plaid were in power there's little doubt that they would ensure Welsh got priority over any other language. Given that Wales has had less than 50% Welsh speakers for at least a century and a half, there's hardly any protocol to suggest Welsh would have priority. We're a bilingual country where the main language spoken by virtually everyone is arguably the biggest language in the world if we talk globally.

I've had the pleasure this week of being involved with a number of Urdd eisteddfodau. I'm appalled by the number of competitors from English medium schools, hardly any. Imagine how much better such a competition could be if it encompassed everyone in Wales and had no language boundaries. There's always been a bias towards kids from welsh medium schools to the point where the others don't bother. It hardly makes Eisteddfodau truly representative of Wales as a whole, unfortunately. Most people couldn't give a shit. Sad, really.

I think you're misunderstanding what the eisteddfod is supposed to be. Its not there to be representative of wales, its there to be a celebration of welsh culture. The key word being welsh. It's also funny that you mention the 'language barrier' in one part of your post, and then ridicule a party's attempt at getting rid of it.
13-03-16, 17:50
Eric the Half a Bee

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy31

I think you're misunderstanding what the eisteddfod is supposed to be. Its not there to be representative of wales, its there to be a celebration of welsh culture. The key word being welsh. It's also funny that you mention the 'language barrier' in one part of your post, and then ridicule a party's attempt at getting rid of it.

Teaching the entire foundation phase entirely in Welsh isn't about removing barriers. It's a means of imposing Welsh on people who aren't interested in the hope they use it later on in life, if anything trying to create a barrier with English.

Also, interesting to see that you regard non-Welsh speakers as not being a part of Welsh culture. So the majority of Welsh people aren't representative of Welsh culture, and by the sounds of it, aren't supposed to be? Do you have the same opinion that only Welsh speakers should contribute to the Welsh economy?
13-03-16, 18:28
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Teaching the entire foundation phase entirely in Welsh isn't about removing barriers. It's a means of imposing Welsh on people who aren't interested in the hope they use it later on in life, if anything trying to create a barrier with English.

Also, interesting to see that you regard non-Welsh speakers as not being a part of Welsh culture. So the majority of Welsh people aren't representative of Welsh culture, and by the sounds of it, aren't supposed to be? Do you have the same opinion that only Welsh speakers should contribute to the Welsh economy?

That isn't what I said. I said Welsh culture, with key word being welsh. Not that Welsh culture is only inclusive of those who speak the language, but that the celebration is of the Welsh language aspect of it. Nice try though.

Teaching everyone the language removes the language barrier, as everyone speaks it. How could you think otherwise?
13-03-16, 21:43
Eric the Half a Bee

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy31

That isn't what I said. I said Welsh culture, with key word being welsh. Not that Welsh culture is only inclusive of those who speak the language, but that the celebration is of the Welsh language aspect of it. Nice try though.

Teaching everyone the language removes the language barrier, as everyone speaks it. How could you think otherwise?

Excellent. We have progress. You agree with me that Welsh culture is not just for those who speak the language, therefore Welsh culture should be about everyone in Wales, regardless of the language they speak. I would like to see the Eisteddfod (national, urdd, others) be a part of the culture for everyone in Wales but they aren't, if we take your admission that they are a celebration of the Welsh language. Make them bilingual, surely that helps break down language barriers and makes them a true celebration of all things Welsh?

All children are taught Welsh in school. Making an entire phase of schooling only available in one language, especially a minority language in a country, is plain daft. Parents no longer able to help their children, difficulty recruiting enough teaching and support staff to cope, decrease in teaching standards as the pool of teachers from which to employ is significantly reduced, all will lead to a decline in educational standards, but that's fine as long as they're all speaking Welsh? Good grief.
14-03-16, 10:48
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Excellent. We have progress. You agree with me that Welsh culture is not just for those who speak the language, therefore Welsh culture should be about everyone in Wales, regardless of the language they speak. I would like to see the Eisteddfod (national, urdd, others) be a part of the culture for everyone in Wales but they aren't, if we take your admission that they are a celebration of the Welsh language. Make them bilingual, surely that helps break down language barriers and makes them a true celebration of all things Welsh?

All children are taught Welsh in school. Making an entire phase of schooling only available in one language, especially a minority language in a country, is plain daft. Parents no longer able to help their children, difficulty recruiting enough teaching and support staff to cope, decrease in teaching standards as the pool of teachers from which to employ is significantly reduced, all will lead to a decline in educational standards, but that's fine as long as they're all speaking Welsh? Good grief.

Welsh education does deliver bilingualism. The same cannot be said for English education. All these points are hypothetical, they may or may not happen. Welsh medium education is thriving at the moment, with too many students compared to school places. If the demand is there, then it should be delivered.
it is also true that teaching standards along with grades are better in welsh medium schools thanks English ones.
14-03-16, 19:55
Vimana.

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Rather a sad little article.

Usual nationalist nonsense, critical but failing to offer a genuine alternative.

Apart from a pointless north/south road!!

The current roads are very narrow mind.
14-03-16, 22:54
Eric the Half a Bee

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy31

Welsh education does deliver bilingualism. The same cannot be said for English education. All these points are hypothetical, they may or may not happen. Welsh medium education is thriving at the moment, with too many students compared to school places. If the demand is there, then it should be delivered.
it is also true that teaching standards along with grades are better in welsh medium schools thanks English ones.

Welsh medium schools have the same benefit as faith schools, parents who give a toss about their kids education and send them to Welsh schools because they believe they have a better education. Parental involvement is one of the biggest factors in how well a child does and both Welsh and religious schools don't suffer much from parents who dump their kids there and couldn't give a shit.

Is a teacher better simply because he speaks Welsh or because they go to church? Of course not. Standards in maths, English and science in Welsh medium schools are below the Welsh average.

I don't have a problem with Welsh medium education and I'm glad it is thriving, even if it is not necessarily because of a desire to learn Welsh. I have a problem with Welsh being forced on people who will never use it and don't want to. Not speaking Welsh doesn't make you any less of a Welshman.
15-03-16, 11:19
tommy31

Re: Labour's sad Wales Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Welsh medium schools have the same benefit as faith schools, parents who give a toss about their kids education and send them to Welsh schools because they believe they have a better education. Parental involvement is one of the biggest factors in how well a child does and both Welsh and religious schools don't suffer much from parents who dump their kids there and couldn't give a shit.

Is a teacher better simply because he speaks Welsh or because they go to church? Of course not. Standards in maths, English and science in Welsh medium schools are below the Welsh average.

I don't have a problem with Welsh medium education and I'm glad it is thriving, even if it is not necessarily because of a desire to learn Welsh. I have a problem with Welsh being forced on people who will never use it and don't want to. Not speaking Welsh doesn't make you any less of a Welshman.

I agree that it doesnt make you less of a welshman. I personally believe in choice, and I think the only way to give the children a fair choice is to teach them both languages. That way they can make a fair and unbiased judgement on which language they prefer and want to speak.

I'd like to see the evidence for the welsh medium schools being behind in key subjects, because I just dont believe that.
Also, every school has parents who dump their kids and dont care about their education. It isnt fair to single some out because you believe different. Some could even say that it's harder to have an involvement with a child's education if he's studying in a language you can't teach. To that, I would say it's incorrect but thats for another day.