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WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...nment-19145493
I think this is potentially a good thing with a massive risk attached to it
What annoys me the most is with services like this, we allow private companies to milk it when times are good and then bail things out when they're bad.
Always at the tail end of the deal
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Something had to be done.
The railway services have been a shambles for decades.
Not holding my breath as short of a major overhaul, I see a continuation of the poor and expensive service.
The "quick fix" mentality never works.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
more spraff from the politicians. The metro idea has been around for over a decade and in that time all we've had are trains given a paint job. If we had as much activity with boots on the ground as we did with the WG's PR department, we'd have a public transport system on a parallel to Berlin
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
It'd be interesting to see the financial implications of ending the franchise early.
To me it makes sense to be state run as there isn't competition on a day to day basis.
If i stroll down to Ponty station I can only get on a TFW train, therefore the market pressures that drive efficiency in a well functioning market just don't exist - so the advantage of the market over public ownership is evaporated.
The theory is that firms compete for franchises - but that's only once every 20 years, and the years in-between there's nothing.
I'd like to see it state run, but with pseudo market-forces introduced.
Offer bonuses across the workforce based on service, price etc compared with the rest of the network or perhaps other countries.
If our trains are the cheapest to use and the most punctual then everyone gets a bonus etc.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
There hasn't been a penny coming in for 7 months something had to give with no end in site when passenger numbers can return
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Nationalise the trains , buses , gas , water , electricity etc and bring back social care into local authority teams instead of allowing private companies to make huge profits in delivering shit services
Naff off thatcher
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cyclops
She's a sort
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cyclops
seriously top end scrunt
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It'd be interesting to see the financial implications of ending the franchise early.
To me it makes sense to be state run as there isn't competition on a day to day basis.
If i stroll down to Ponty station I can only get on a TFW train, therefore the market pressures that drive efficiency in a well functioning market just don't exist - so the advantage of the market over public ownership is evaporated.
The theory is that firms compete for franchises - but that's only once every 20 years, and the years in-between there's nothing.
I'd like to see it state run, but with pseudo market-forces introduced.
Offer bonuses across the workforce based on service, price etc compared with the rest of the network or perhaps other countries.
If our trains are the cheapest to use and the most punctual then everyone gets a bonus etc.
as long as you keep all civil servants and public sector workers well away from the running of the company, and public ownership is exactly that, as a shareholder, then it could work. The moment you get civil servants and public sector workers trying to deliver competitive services, you accept failure.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
as long as you keep all civil servants and public sector workers well away from the running of the company, and public ownership is exactly that, as a shareholder, then it could work. The moment you get civil servants and public sector workers trying to deliver competitive services, you accept failure.
Bollocks.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
as long as you keep all civil servants and public sector workers well away from the running of the company, and public ownership is exactly that, as a shareholder, then it could work. The moment you get civil servants and public sector workers trying to deliver competitive services, you accept failure.
Arse
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Bollocks.
touched a nerve. I've worked with many a civil servant and public sector worker, and they haven't got the first idea of what drives a commercial operation
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It'd be interesting to see the financial implications of ending the franchise early.
To me it makes sense to be state run as there isn't competition on a day to day basis.
If i stroll down to Ponty station I can only get on a TFW train, therefore the market pressures that drive efficiency in a well functioning market just don't exist - so the advantage of the market over public ownership is evaporated.
The theory is that firms compete for franchises - but that's only once every 20 years, and the years in-between there's nothing.
It's been exactly the same with buses. Around the UK there are routes and areas that have such great demand that operators can compete and make a profit. Around South Wales that's certainly not the case. Operators avoid competition with each other as they lose income by competing on routes that don't provide the revenue.
Bus companies cut back on marginal routes but will spend and enhance the most profitable ones. Back in the days where it was publically owned, there were requirements to provide those marginal bus services, so people in remote or small places still had access to public transport. When bus operators trim these marginal routes, usually the local council end up offering them out to contract, often to less reliable operators who don't offer integrated tickets for people who need to use another bus afterwards.
Bus companies are happy to make decent profits on busy routes but they're also happy to ask for council money to continue routes that don't perform. That's not good for the passenger or the public purse.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Arse
what a well thought out and educated response.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
touched a nerve. I've worked with many a civil servant and public sector worker, and they haven't got the first idea of what drives a commercial operation
I'm sure you have, just to fit your narrative of private = good, public = bad.
You are Feedback and I claim my £200 for passing go!
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
what a well thought out and educated response.
It was more of your usual private sector bollocks though so it got the response it deserved
Privatisation in most cases led to in most cases not the cream rising to the top for the benefit of all but a few private firms acting in almost a monopoly or two or three to rake in the cash , crap service and increasing fares
Trains , buses , care services .....the private companies providing these are raking it in whilst paying staff minimum wage on zero hours contracts ......
Welcome to the wonders of the market place
I didn't vote for it so bollocks to it
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It'd be interesting to see the financial implications of ending the franchise early.
To me it makes sense to be state run as there isn't competition on a day to day basis.
If i stroll down to Ponty station I can only get on a TFW train, therefore the market pressures that drive efficiency in a well functioning market just don't exist - so the advantage of the market over public ownership is evaporated.
The theory is that firms compete for franchises - but that's only once every 20 years, and the years in-between there's nothing.
I'd like to see it state run, but with pseudo market-forces introduced.
Offer bonuses across the workforce based on service, price etc compared with the rest of the network or perhaps other countries.
If our trains are the cheapest to use and the most punctual then everyone gets a bonus etc.
I totally agree with you it would just need the WAG to grow some bollocks for once
Made a balls up? Sorry they should be sacked as you would in a private company
Commerciality? There’s no 22 minute past 10 bus from Blaina to Abertwsswg? Sorry tough.
It’s been easy for public sector to bury the head in the sand in the past and fair play to the WAG for taking this on board.
The fact they’re looking at using a multi ticket system is a huge huge benefit for the population
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
It's been exactly the same with buses. Around the UK there are routes and areas that have such great demand that operators can compete and make a profit. Around South Wales that's certainly not the case. Operators avoid competition with each other as they lose income by competing on routes that don't provide the revenue.
Bus companies cut back on marginal routes but will spend and enhance the most profitable ones. Back in the days where it was publically owned, there were requirements to provide those marginal bus services, so people in remote or small places still had access to public transport. When bus operators trim these marginal routes, usually the local council end up offering them out to contract, often to less reliable operators who don't offer integrated tickets for people who need to use another bus afterwards.
Bus companies are happy to make decent profits on busy routes but they're also happy to ask for council money to continue routes that don't perform. That's not good for the passenger or the public purse.
nail on the head
Some towns in the valleys are very isolated and since bus privatisation have been abandoned
You want to get a bus from Bridgend to Cardiff ? Walk this way sir , here is your seat
You live in the upper Ogmore valley and want to go into Bridgend to go shopping ? Next Thursday mate
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
as long as you keep all civil servants and public sector workers well away from the running of the company, and public ownership is exactly that, as a shareholder, then it could work. The moment you get civil servants and public sector workers trying to deliver competitive services, you accept failure.
Perhaps - if your understanding of economics is limited to civil servants and public sector workers = bad and private ownership = good, without understanding what can drive private companies to be more efficient, and what happens when it isn't there.
Sadly there seem to be some in the Tory party who have a similarly shallow understanding, which is perhaps how we ended up with the kind of privatization that we did.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I totally agree with you it would just need the WAG to grow some bollocks for once
Made a balls up? Sorry they should be sacked as you would in a private company
Commerciality? There’s no 22 minute past 10 bus from Blaina to Abertwsswg? Sorry tough.
It’s been easy for public sector to bury the head in the sand in the past and fair play to the WAG for taking this on board.
The fact they’re looking at using a multi ticket system is a huge huge benefit for the population
That's part of the reason for the bonus system I suggested.
If someone's swinging the lead, it might be annoying to you but most people don't do anything about it.
If your bonus, and their bosses bonus is likely to be affected by it then I'm sure you'd see far less tolerance of that kind of thing.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Nationalise the trains , buses , gas , water , electricity etc and bring back social care into local authority teams instead of allowing private companies to make huge profits in delivering shit services
Naff off thatcher
Absolutely agree 100%
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
This whole project is something that the WAG has clearly got right so far, now it’s up to them to complete it.
After the U.K. government gave it to Arriva trains in a shambolic 15 year deal (as usual) with no contracted passenger growth in 15 whole years, it has meant our railways are years behind, praise the lord for Westminster looking out for us... So worth all their due diligence.
It seems like KeolisAmey are still involved in the construction and track maintenance which is vital to the metro, hopefully within 3 years the network will be transformed. If this all goes to plan then TFW will have plenty to reinvest in the rest of the network.
https://youtu.be/3YKGqTBEAkQ
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Its been emotional
Absolutely agree 100%
There was plenty of things wrong in the past but the use of the market place to deliver essential services is the road to hell
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I'm sure you have, just to fit your narrative of private = good, public = bad.
I never said private = good, public = bad, you did. The public sector should stick to delivering public sector services, and leave the running of business to those who understand it.
You are Feedback and I claim my £200 for passing go![/QUOTE]
what do you want, a bunty badge?
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wozza16
This whole project is something that the WAG has clearly got right so far, now it’s up to them to complete it.
After the U.K. government gave it to Arriva trains in a shambolic 15 year deal (as usual) with no contracted passenger growth in 15 whole years, it has meant our railways are years behind, praise the lord for Westminster looking out for us... So worth all their due diligence.
It seems like KeolisAmey are still involved in the construction and track maintenance which is vital to the metro, hopefully within 3 years the network will be transformed. If this all goes to plan then TFW will have plenty to reinvest in the rest of the network.
https://youtu.be/3YKGqTBEAkQ
a properly funded public transport system benefits everyone , even those who don't use it !
Its perfect
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
Perhaps - if your understanding of economics is limited to civil servants and public sector workers = bad and private ownership = good, without understanding what can drive private companies to be more efficient, and what happens when it isn't there.
Sadly there seem to be some in the Tory party who have a similarly shallow understanding, which is perhaps how we ended up with the kind of privatization that we did.
its not a shallow understanding. I'm not against public sector oversight, i just think the public sector worker doesn't have the right skills or training to make a success of what is a commercial operation.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wozza16
This whole project is something that the WAG has clearly got right so far, now it’s up to them to complete it.
After the U.K. government gave it to Arriva trains in a shambolic 15 year deal (as usual) with no contracted passenger growth in 15 whole years, it has meant our railways are years behind, praise the lord for Westminster looking out for us... So worth all their due diligence.
It seems like KeolisAmey are still involved in the construction and track maintenance which is vital to the metro, hopefully within 3 years the network will be transformed. If this all goes to plan then TFW will have plenty to reinvest in the rest of the network.
https://youtu.be/3YKGqTBEAkQ
really? what have WG delivered re the metro?
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
its not a shallow understanding. I'm not against public sector oversight, i just think the public sector worker doesn't have the right skills or training to make a success of what is a commercial operation.
What is a public sector worker? Are they all general public sector workers? Of course not, but it fits your narrative once again.
Surely if the public sector end up taking over, they'd then employ people fit for the roles required. Surely there's no difference there? You're not going to have Gary from housing suddenly driving a train or Maureen, the dinner lady, scheduling routes.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
its not a shallow understanding. I'm not against public sector oversight, i just think the public sector worker doesn't have the right skills or training to make a success of what is a commercial operation.
there is no difference between a public sector worker and a private sector worker, people just behave in whichever way they are incentivised.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
really? what have WG delivered re the metro?
They've started it which is more than can be said for WG in the past.
I don't think they can be critisised on that at the moment
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...nment-19145493
I think this is potentially a good thing with a massive risk attached to it
What annoys me the most is with services like this, we allow private companies to milk it when times are good and then bail things out when they're bad.
Always at the tail end of the deal
The truth is the Welsh Governement through Transport for Wales took all the big decisions anyway. The railways were run by a Civil Servant. Keolis Amey were really unhappy that Keolis Amey (Transport for Wales Rail) that they got the blame when things went wrong and the WG tried to take credit when (rarely) something positive happened. Most insiders belieive that Keolis Amey would have pulled out anyway at some point. To be truly effective they now need someone who is not a Civil Servant to run them.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
The truth is the Welsh Governement through Transport for Wales took all the big decisions anyway. The railways were run by a Civil Servant. Keolis Amey were really unhappy that Keolis Amey (Transport for Wales Rail) were very unhappy that they got the blame when things went wrong and the WG tried to take credit when (rarely) something positive happened. Most insiders beieive that Keolis Amey would have pulled out anyway at some point. To be truly effective they now need someone who is not a Civil Servant to run them.
Transport for London do something similar.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
The truth is the Welsh Governement through Transport for Wales took all the big decisions anyway. The railways were run by a Civil Servant. Keolis Amey were really unhappy that Keolis Amey (Transport for Wales Rail) were very unhappy that they got the blame when things went wrong and the WG tried to take credit when (rarely) something positive happened. Most insiders beieive that Keolis Amey would have pulled out anyway at some point. To be truly effective they now need someone who is not a Civil Servant to run them.
You obviously are more informed than myself but wasn't it lauded when Keolis Amey took over?
I wonder if there's no penalty for KA to cease either knowing the WAG
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
really? what have WG delivered re the metro?
Considering KeolisAmey only took over the franchise in late 2018 and the U.K. government only transferred the ownership of the core valley lines to WAG about 3 months ago, they haven’t exactly had much of an opportunity to make any major infrastructure improvements.
These are some of the improvements planned by 2023 (which has been always been the plan, no HS2 timescales)
https://tfwrail.wales/about-us/transport-for-wales
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
You obviously are more informed than myself but wasn't it lauded when Keolis Amey took over?
I wonder if there's no penalty for KA to cease either knowing the WAG
I am not coming at this from a TISS angle, god forbid. But Transport for Wales is run by a Civil Servant. if you look at WG scrutiny committees on Transport it was the Civil Servant who answered all the questions. Yet when the trains failed to run on time or when they breached Welsh Language guidelines TfW pointed the finger at TfW Rail Services ( Keolis Amey) and actually fined them. But they were always working with one arm tied behind their back. Privately KA regretted getting involved - except perhaps from the infrastructure side.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
It was more of your usual private sector bollocks though so it got the response it deserved
Privatisation in most cases led to in most cases not the cream rising to the top for the benefit of all but a few private firms acting in almost a monopoly or two or three to rake in the cash , crap service and increasing fares
Trains , buses , care services .....the private companies providing these are raking it in whilst paying staff minimum wage on zero hours contracts ......
Welcome to the wonders of the market place
I didn't vote for it so bollocks to it
and British Rail before it, whilst in public ownership, was a shining light on rail operation anywhere in the world.
the UK rail system is a shambles, it has been for years, and going back to public ownership won't change that.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
What is a public sector worker? Are they all general public sector workers? Of course not, but it fits your narrative once again.
Surely if the public sector end up taking over, they'd then employ people fit for the roles required. Surely there's no difference there? You're not going to have Gary from housing suddenly driving a train or Maureen, the dinner lady, scheduling routes.
so you agree with me, its best not to have public sector workers near the operation, and bringing in those with experience of business is the way forward.
it was a hard slog, but we get there in the end.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
They've started it which is more than can be said for WG in the past.
I don't think they can be critisised on that at the moment
they've been talking about it for more than a decade. Talk is cheap.
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Re: WAG to take over control of trains confirmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
The truth is the Welsh Governement through Transport for Wales took all the big decisions anyway. The railways were run by a Civil Servant. Keolis Amey were really unhappy that Keolis Amey (Transport for Wales Rail) that they got the blame when things went wrong and the WG tried to take credit when (rarely) something positive happened. Most insiders belieive that Keolis Amey would have pulled out anyway at some point. To be truly effective they now need someone who is not a Civil Servant to run them.
BLASPHEMY