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"Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Excellent piece by Will Hutton in the Guardian.
Unusual to get a moderate like Hutton attacking the current direction of the Tory party in such scathing terms.
He makes some great points. Is it the SNP who are the greatest threat to the union or Cameron's Tory party?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/03/english -conservatism-gone-rogue-country-suffers?utm_source=dlvr.it& amp;utm_medium=twitter
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Interesting article Alf and I wouldn't disagree with a lot of it but Will Hutton is hardly an unbiased observer.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by alfie sherwood wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 08:46
Excellent piece by Will Hutton in the Guardian.
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by NECS wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 08:57
Interesting article Alf and I wouldn't disagree with a lot of it but Will Hutton is hardly an unbiased observer.
This is explosive stuff by his standards.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Interesting article..
Won't change the entrenched Party Political viewpoints of party political bottom feeders (as is already evident above), but food for thought for those capable of rational thinking and making descisions.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 08:58
Excellent piece by Will Hutton in the Guardian.
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Originally Posted by alfie sherwood wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 08:46
Unusual to get a moderate like Hutton attacking the current direction of the Tory party in such scathing terms.
Yet another stunning comeback argument from Croesy, littered with counterpoints.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
^^
The Tory Dame has scuttled off now, before he has to substatiate his emoticon in any written manner that doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's watching a 'rugger match'.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
Is that a great article because I agree with virtually every word of it or is it because it's something that needed to be said written by what appears to be a true British patriot? On balance, I think it's the latter, it's thought provoking stuff that, probably, will never reach those who I believe most need to read it.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
The normal everyday people need to get their act together and form a credible alternative.
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/thumbup.gif
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Gluey wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 09:42
The normal everyday people need to get their act together and form a credible alternative.
But (the road to) 'power corrupts'?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
If Ed miliband puts David Cameron back into Downing Street by refusing to talk to the snp and plaid- and vote with them even when they share policies and values- if he is really that tribal about labour- then it is him and labour who are putting the union at most risk.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by alfie sherwood wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 08:46
Excellent piece by Will Hutton in the Guardian.
I genuinely can't remember Cameron going to Scotland apart from the "you might want to vote to give the effing tories a good kicking" speech he had about 2 weeks before the referendum.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
So is Hutton saying it's all about money?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
My father, who was staunch Labour until the day he died, always said that the Tories would never get in if they didn't rely on a large working class vote and sadly that's as true today as it always was.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Father Dougal wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:02
If Ed miliband puts David Cameron back into Downing Street by refusing to talk to the snp and plaid- and vote with them even when they share policies and values- if he is really that tribal about labour- then it is him and labour who are putting the union at most risk.
Wales, Scotland and Moderate England should join together and create a new country, and while we are at it build a big wall around the Tory heartlands to keep them out. Then we can get back to doing what we are good at - making and inventing things.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
It seems that is an element which others - seemingly you? - fail to 'grasp'.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/27/why-privatis ation-is-the-key-to-the-election
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:53
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
The Tory party will barely exist as a political force in 20 years time, that is why they are in a mad rush to sell everything off.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:31
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
No, but generally the left make that spurious claim. I also don't see how someone sharing your values makes them a patriot, unless you're using that term in the historical tory v patriot sense
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
I have never understood why people on the right are constntly in denial about their views. I am proud to say i am on the left. I am proud to say that i am in favour of equality and social justice. Why do people like the BNP constantly deny they are racist and tories deny they are about self interest. I just dont get it. Perhaps deep down they know they have something to be ashamed of.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Vimana. wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:52
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article.
What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
The end goals are the same, they just approach it differently. Both parties mean well and look for what thry think is the best way to achieve that end goal
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
What we have now is an elite selfish group who just want to help each other.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article.
What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by Vimana. wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:52
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
It is about money - certainly to some degree or another.
You say you can't get your head around it, someone explains it to you and for some reason you take it as a personal slight and say "I'm well aware of why people vote thanks. There is no need for the lecture."
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
You also make out that having self interest is a poor quality to have. The truth is you need self interest and you also need to have a social conscience and the ability to help others. Just because people choose to help others in a different way to you doesn't mean they aren't helping.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:20
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article.
What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by Vimana. wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:52
It is about money - certainly to some degree or another.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
Aspirational voters.
I can get my head round it thanks. I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Gluey wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
I don't see why being right wing doesn't mean you can't cooperate with your fellow man. I also don't see how 38% of the population can be considered an elite group who want to help each other
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
The way I see it is that the Tories want a strong economy to build a strong society and labour want a strong society to build a strong economy.
Any crumbs that come down to the bottom from a Tory governmnet are purley to keep the workers healthy so they can continue to create wealth for the rich and to prevent any uprising of the working classes.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:27
The way I see it is that the Tories want a strong economy to build a strong society and labour want a strong society to build a strong economy.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:15
Wrong, the Tories want a strong economy to build a stong economy. they are not interestd in society. Dont forget Maggie wanted us to believe 'there is no such thing as society'.
That is your opinion Which once again is clouded by your ideology. do you really think that all Tories voters - all 38% of the popular vote - are rich or have aspirations to be rich? I'm not sure you can make such a generalisation?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:21
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
You might not like it, but it is fact, not crass. If they care for their fellow man, then they would not be voting tory - unless they are blind to the nature of the tory party.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:22
I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
'You made it clear'? Give us a break. what you meant is - you gave us your opinion. All you have done is confirm my comments about the right being ashamed of thier own views.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:31
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
So is Hutton saying it's all about money?
My values have nothing to do with what I said about Hutton's patriotism. Truth is that, although nationalism often makes me feel uneasy, I'm a Welsh patriot, but I don't think I'm much of a British one. On the other hand, it seems to me that what Hutton says makes him a British patriot in a different way to what many would think the term means these days - for me though, that's English patriotism rather than British patriotism.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:30
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:21
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
I have never understood why people on the right are constntly in denial about their views. I am proud to say i am on the left. I am proud to say that i am in favour of equality and social justice. Why do people like the BNP constantly deny they are racist and tories deny they are about self interest. I just dont get it. Perhaps deep down they know they have something to be ashamed of.
More dogma. Having conservative values doesn't mean you don't care for your fellow man. There are many aspects of conservatism and to suggest it's all about self is a little wide of the mark.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:33
I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:22
'You made it clear'? Give us a break. what you meant is - you gave us your opinion. All you have done is confirm my comments about the right being ashamed of thier own views.
is there any chance of you engaging in a civil way without resorting to the gutter level. I don't see why those on the right have to be ashamed Just like those on the left have nothing to be ashamed of either. Opinions are formed from personal experiences and yet here you are trying to judge everyone who disagrees with your world view without knowing their reasons for having those opinions in the first place.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by Kiffa wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:34
It's not really news that the Tories want to see a smaller state.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:29
It's interesting to see the left wing posters think it's a thought provoking article. What I cant get my head around is how a party that regularly attracts 35-38% of the popular vote can be considered a party for the rich only. It's a cheap label that isn't born in reality.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:30
Centre right values are different from centre left values and it's not necessarily about money. That's something those on the left can't seem to grasp.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:21
The Tories do not just get votes from the rich, they also get votes from those who aspire to be rich, or just do not want to share with anyone else. They are more concerend about themselves than they are about their fellow man or woman.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:12
I have never understood why people on the right are constntly in denial about their views. I am proud to say i am on the left. I am proud to say that i am in favour of equality and social justice. Why do people like the BNP constantly deny they are racist and tories deny they are about self interest. I just dont get it. Perhaps deep down they know they have something to be ashamed of.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 10:28
more crass generalisations archie. 38% of the popular vote goes to the Tories and I reckon you're wrong to say that each and every one of them doesn't care for their fellow man.
Yes, there are many aspects to conservatism (with a small c). However we were talking about the Conservative Party (large C). Two different animals.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:34
Its not surprising to see them wax lyrical over a permanent state of austerity while sitting in a golden throne enjoying a 5 course feast complete with copious amounts of champagne either.
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 12:32
I made it clear that aspiration doesn't have to be about money.
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Originally Posted by archibald leitch wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:33
'You made it clear'? Give us a break. what you meant is - you gave us your opinion. All you have done is confirm my comments about the right being ashamed of thier own views.
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Originally Posted by The Local Boy wrote on Sun, 03 May 2015 11:22
is there any chance of you engaging in a civil way without resorting to the gutter level. I don't see why those on the right have to be ashamed Just like those on the left have nothing to be ashamed of either. Opinions are formed from personal experiences and yet here you are trying to judge everyone who disagrees with your world view without knowing their reasons for having those opinions in the first place.
Can you please confirm, if you are not ashamed of your values, why are you denying them?
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Re: "Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"
I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.
