Interested what the early thoughts are. Cameron's deal doesn't seem to have convinced the maybes to stay in.
As far as I can see alot of people are likely to vote out.
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Interested what the early thoughts are. Cameron's deal doesn't seem to have convinced the maybes to stay in.
As far as I can see alot of people are likely to vote out.
It won't make any difference, the problem is not in or out of Europe.
Where's the 'Shake it all about' option?
In for me, mostly because I trust the EU to put people's interests before those of big business far more than I do Westminster.
Maybe not for you, but for many it can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 10:39
I honestly don't feel qualified to contribute to making such an important decision.
Sadly, I suspect that a significant percentage of the population will do whatever The Sun/Daily Mail will tell them to do.
Either way, I am very confident that intelligent thinking and economic analysis will have no impact whatsoever on the eventual outcome.
They were saying similar on the news this morning. Stats are made up by each side, so the economic argument is nothing but fallacy. It will end up being the personalities that win in. The Boris' and others that will come out on each side.Quote:
Originally Posted by TH63 wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 10:45
in. EU grants are vital for wales.
Same team, different colours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Dragon wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 10:45
Bookies offering 7/4 on the vote to leave. and 2/5 on the stay.
It feels a bit closer than that at the moment.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-refe rendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Alex DeLarge wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 10:42
I appreciate that if we left the EU, there is no guarantee that current recipients would still get the benefits they do, but bear in mind a future UK government could honour all EU expenditure, and still have £23m a day change for whatever else it wanted (NHS,Schools, Tax cuts, defence etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31 wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 10:56
Also, while I agree with the principle that debts should be honoured, I think you only need to look at Greece to see that your point is dubious.Quote:
Originally Posted by redjk wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 10:42
Greece has been screwed into the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 11:45
Probably out for me, but I will be shoring up my knowledge on the topic.
For me, the balance is this:
On one side, I support international bodies, and support being part of organisations that share ideas, risks, and collaborate for the greater good. In that sense, generally speaking, being part of the UN, EU, NATO, etc is a good thing.
This though is balanced with the fact that while being in a pan-Europe organisation is theoretically good, in practice, the EU is an abysmal organisation, grossly expensive and undemocratic, and severely impacts upon sovereignty. I also think it's oft-alledged 'raison d'etre' that it has kept the peace in Europe is increasingly untrue - I think a centralised body over such diverse peoples and nations is increasingly adding to conflict, rather than preventing it.
My mind is very open to changing my opinion, and if a third options of 'Inside a significantly reformed EU' were presented, then I'd vote for that.
However, as things stand, I'm peering into the leave camp from my position sat on the fence.
It would all get spent in London.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 11:44
does anyone think we would have had two world wars if we adopted the EU in 1900? i don't and that is reason enough to keep us at the top table of european politics.
If Britain leaves the EU then Scotland would leave Britain shortly afterwards,, leaving Wales locked into an England that will only ever have a Tory government.
I can only see the London centric nature of Westminster government being increased following a brexit
The 1st World War was a squabble between Queen Victoria's grandchildren, so I'm not sure what the EU would have done about that. Ditto the Nazi sympathizers prior to WW2, there were leading people in this country who wanted us to join in on their side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:04
Personally I'd be all up for deeper integration into Europe, and the formation of a European super state.
The EU, while not being perfect, is as democratic or as undemocratic as our system, except, it seems, with better environmental protections and workers rights (from what I can gather so far; I'm still trying to work it out myself).Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 11:50
2 - EU granst can work, you just need capable people in control of them. The people of wales dont want this, else we wouldnt still be voting for labour.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 11:44
by far the most sensible post in this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by redjk wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:21
I said that political differences would be discussed around the table. can you really see the EU going to war today over something like the assassination of a politician? I don't see that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:18
Europe, for it to work, needs to be more like a united states of europe. But culturally and economically and politcally we are not anyway near being close enough to become one large country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:40
The EU has probably stopped Russia being more aggressive aswell. They have tried their luck, without a united europe I think they would have pushed alot harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:42
I spent the last 4 or 5 years scouting alternative manufacturing sites throughout Europe, "just in case". Our French & German customers are already bringing major pressure to bear and won't commit to contracts beyond 2021 until they know the outcome. I'm doing everything within my power to counteract this line of thinking but I have no chance against multi-billion euro companies. If the vote is to leave, then I'd estimate 300~500 jobs transferred out of the UK. Our case is not helped by a strong pound either, especially when up against low cost countries.
It doesn't really matter what my opinion is, I have to vote stay.
Out for so many reasons, but unfortunately, we will still be in come end of June.
Have they? I have a feeling that Germany and Russia could be natural allies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Dragon wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:46
Is that that different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:59
This an argument that for alot of people will be a vote to stay in europe. But we will almost immediately sign a free trade agreement with europe. So how will it have any effect? It will allow us to create trade agreement with other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Des Parrot wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:49
What is Sian Branson leaning towards ? This is vital for me
Russia weren't too happy because that Nuland lady orchestrated regime change in Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Dragon wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 13:00
you think the Californians are similar to those from Vermont?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Dragon wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:45
Prussia and Russia have never been natural allies, save when fighting a common foeQuote:
Originally Posted by Observer wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:59
Its goes deeper than that. Europe and Russia agreed to not tread onto each others borders, but when europe signed up poland lithuania latvia and estonia they felt that europe had gone back on the agreement. Which is why ukraine kicked off, with russia firstly trying to get them to go towards russia, and then europe trying to pull them back their way. Europe should not have expanded into all these countries in the first place. It pissed off the ruskies that old USSR states are going west towards europe instead of looking east to the Russian BearQuote:
Originally Posted by Observer wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 13:12
Its feasible, but not as things are at the moment. There are too many differences for it to work as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 13:15
Traffic laws can be decided on a country level etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Barry Dragon wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 12:45
I said could be. Russia has the natural resources, and Germany has the technology and discipline. Their cultures are not too dissimilar either. I would imagine a lot of Germans are none too pleased being lumped with the basket case Southern European states. Europe has been on an economic knife-edge for the past five years, and something has to give.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 13:16