You can no longer lie and get away with it

Hammy is dead. They will have to honour the promise not to raise National insurance. This will grow into a full blown crisis unless they U turn now.

Voters will not let them lie.

Voters swallowed all the Brexit lies though. All that money to be spent on the NHS and yesterday Hammond gave the NHS sweet fa.

Only fair to close one tax loop holes. Let's get more closed.

And I say that as someone who has been self employed and benefitted from the tax benefits available.

The next move will be, for all the business that abused the self employed gig jobs, will be to force their employees, let's face it that is what they should be, to become limited co. This will then force the government to increase taxes on dividends, the next loop hole.

I now benefit from the tax benefits of a limited company and I can earn twice as much as my partner and still pay less tax. Why?

Yes there should be some savings for those that risk their livelihood in business but it certainly seems there is too much savings to be had compared to those in employment.

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Originally Posted by BlueWales

Voters swallowed all the Brexit lies though. All that money to be spent on the NHS and yesterday Hammond gave the NHS sweet fa.

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Hammond wasn't involved in the Leave campaign so he he isn't expected to do anything they said.

"Leave" don't even exist anymore.

Gave money to social care didn't they?.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

As said - £2.40 a month is naff all - and I'm more than ok with it (shoudl be £5) - so should every else be - employed, self employed, Ltd Co owners - everyone. Stick it all in the NHS - and then just watch it get gobbled by the NHS - and we will be in the same position next year.

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How did you get £2.40 a month (55p a week/£28.80 per year)?

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Barry - maybe you know this, but the way you run your company is up to you - as long as it is withing company law.

So you can keep money in your company for a rainy day, you can invest in a private pension, pay dividends , invest in training, buy new kit etc. You still have to pay tax on the money you withdraw from your company in one of three ways, salary, expenses, dividends - you will pay tax in varying degrees on all of these.

You cannot be self employed when running your own Ltd Co. You are employed - by your own company.

I run my own company, some years I earn less than other years, so my turnover / profit varies each year. If I want to earn more money - I have to go and find it, work away from home, work silly hours. No work - no invoice, so as a result I have very little holidays, no sick pay and will work through any illness that doesnt put me in hospital.

The beauty of running your own company is the freedom, thrill and dynamic lifestyle (for me anyway). For those in employment - they have all the trappings of holiday pay, sick,pension, pay rises (regardless of performance) - Im talking about the 10k pay rise awarded to AMs.

As said - £2.40 a month is naff all - and I'm more than ok with it (shoudl be £5) - so should every else be - employed, self employed, Ltd Co owners - everyone. Stick it all in the NHS - and then just watch it get gobbled by the NHS - and we will be in the same position next year.

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Self employed and limited co do have their down sides of no holiday pay no set days off. But employed individuals not only pay more tax, but they can't put through expenses like the self employed and limited co.

Also it is the individuals choice whether to pay into a pension scheme.

We can put through laptops phones tablets. Also a share of house costs if you work from home, so a % of you gas, electric, water, broadband, phone , mobile and mortgage interest all through the business. For me that equates to £8000 a year. A tax saving of £1600. And I only put through the normal items, you could really ramp this up.

We can pay ourselves around £8500 without paying any tax. And then pay the profits (taxed at 20%) through dividends, which until April were tax free.

So let's assume a small profit of £8000 after paying corporation tax £2000. So £26,500 earnings/profit taken from the business and only £2000 tax paid leaving us with £24,500. With dividends (assumed at current level) now attracting a further £210 tax.

Compared to someone in employment earning £26500 they pay £5,312.80, leaving them with £21,187.20, so some £3,300 worse off. And the employer pays a further £2,537 in employers national insurance.

So for a small average income there is quite a difference. These changes are simply putting the tax burden on a more equal share.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

The Manifesto pledge was was for employed people you are talking about self employed (there is a difference ya know) , the law that made pledge a reality made no mention of self employed people at all.

ps - you are talking to an ex NHS worker - there is so much wastage in the NHS - that needs fixing first - and in fairness is being address - with any savings made being reinvested (well in England it is) Wales NHS budget has been reduced by the WAG, I dont think the WAG ring fenced any budget.

Personally I think an extra £2.40p / 60p a week (which is the increase mentioned yesterday) could be paid by everyone - and use to give to the NHS. The issue being is that spending demands by the NHS are increasing by about 5% year on year - which is why they wanted to do a top down re org of it. A massive PFI debt doesnt exactly help it either.

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Have you read the 2015 Tory manifesto? If so please confirm where it distinguishes between the employed and self employed in regard to national insurance. I will give you a clue. It doesn't. They lied and are trying to wriggle.

And If there were a general election tomorrow the stories would still romp to an even bigger majority such is the inept state of the labour leadership.
An article in the Guardian basically said Hammond can do what he likes as there's more chance of City winning the champions league then Labour getting elected at present.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the proposed increase in NI contributions by the self-employed, the “wit” and smugness of Hammond during his budget speech may yet come back to haunt him. I believe Corbyn to be a decent man but a leader of a political party he is not, even so he did not deserve the kind of ridicule that he was subjected to. Also as an aside, what a bad example some of the MPs set, happily tapping away on their mobiles/laptops during the speeches! All engaged on official Parliamentary business of course.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the proposed increase in NI contributions by the self-employed, the “wit” and smugness of Hammond during his budget speech may yet come back to haunt him. I believe Corbyn to be a decent man but a leader of a political party he is not, even so he did not deserve the kind of ridicule that he was subjected to. Also as an aside, what a bad example some of the MPs set, happily tapping away on their mobiles/laptops during the speeches! All engaged on official Parliamentary business of course.

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Hear Hear.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Oh go on then , I'll give you a tickle - tell me where in the Tory manifesto it said self employed NICs would not rise ?

We all know what he's done - they have seen a gap in the context and also seen there is enough there to raise some money.

Under 16k - your NICs wil go down, over 17k they will go up £20 a year and a self employed consultant type (like me) on 52k a year will have to pay £620 a year more (Im fine with it) , this is a Labour type policy - and Im still ok with with it.

Didnt like the tuition fees rise though back though back in the day, and didnt like the failed Lib Dems pledge of being able to scrap them either.

It's all about the wriggle room.

There will be more of this to come , Hammond seems to have ditched the deficit reduction plan for the time being, which means the debt gets bigger and the interest repayments on it get higher - which means less to spend on everything else - unless the economy grows - which has now been revised back UP to 2% - so there is some hope of us growing our way out of it.

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Simple young Feedback.The manifesto confirmed there would be no national insurance tax hike. Fullstop. No wriggle room. They have broken a manifesto pledge. I suspect we will see yet another Tory U turn as they pull the plug on this measure. This is a pretty feeble Government which would be on the ropes if there was a half decent opposition.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Forgive me for the rough valuations, they were the mean averages as stated on the bbc

As it stands - if you earn less than 16k a year , you will actually pay less NICs
If you earn 17k a year you will pay a whopping £20 a year more NIC
If you are a high earner on 50k+ you will be £620 a year more NIC

That sounds more like a Labour policy to me ...... what will Jezza do ?

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Thanks for the explanation :thumbup:

Hammy has been labelled a rookie and had a finger waging from Lord Lamont in the Telegraph. "Election pledges should not be lightly given... and tax pledges cannot be lightly cast aside... What is said in a general election matters. "

Not so many guffaws and smug jokes this morning then.

Crude jokes in parliament cheapens the democratic process. It wasn't so long ago that David Cameron was making "hilarious" comments about Ed Milliband lacking friends in school which drifts towards bullying.

I heard this morning was that while the NI rise will mostly impact on high earning self-employed people, over £40,000, it will also mean that those earning under £6,000 and wanting to pay for NI contributions will pay more than 4x as much as they previously did.

Showing images of Uber seems to ignores that Uber drivers went to court and won the right to be recognised as employees rather than self-employed.

A rise in tax may or may not be a bad thing but given the previous "labour will attack job creators" shtick that was prominent in the Conservative 2015 manifesto and this move should be explained more.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-con...nal-insurance/

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

Hammond wasn't involved in the Leave campaign so he he isn't expected to do anything they said.

"Leave" don't even exist anymore.

Gave money to social care didn't they?.

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Broke the promise of what he DID say regarding tax rises though didn't he ?

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Nick Clegg - abolition of tuition fees , Tony Blair - introducing tuition fees (dont mention the war).

Ive got over it already :thumbup:

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Thatcher liar over the sinking of the Belgrano. They all do it.

Yes, they all do, and always have done. Simple as.

It may have got to the point that it is any and every time that any of their lips move :/

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

Hammond wasn't involved in the Leave campaign so he he isn't expected to do anything they said.

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Those involved in the Leave campaign won't end up doing anything they promised, like staying in the single market, either.

Saw this doing the rounds
Attachment 1350
:tongue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39278968

I was right.
That's unusual.

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Originally Posted by AlwaysAway2

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39278968

I was right.
That's unusual.

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The political damage is already done. Thankfully.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Amazing isnt it - a Govt makes a decision, which it looks like was a mistake and it reverses it within a week - and some say it's a catastrophic cataclysmic event - others would see it as listening and making good their mistake.

Personally - they should have kept the NI changes in place (it affected me probably the worse). Next time there is an NHS crisis - anyone who criticises lack of investment - need to have a think back to this decision - and whether you supported it or not.

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The days of lying to voters in election Manifestos are OVER.
At least if the relevant party want to get away with it.
The Liberal Democrats were PERMANENTLY ELIMINATED over the student fees fiasco.

Find me anyone who admits to being a Liberal Democrat voter now. They do not exist.

Social Media is a game changer and they realise.

Read the only UKIP MPs book
The end of Politics (and the birth of iDemocracy) Douglas Carswell

It is a great work of its time even if the author has since gone bonkers. He was focused when he wrote it.:-)

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Amazing isnt it - a Govt makes a decision, which it looks like was a mistake and it reverses it within a week - and some say it's a catastrophic cataclysmic event - others would see it as listening and making good their mistake.

Personally - they should have kept the NI changes in place (it affected me probably the worse). Next time there is an NHS crisis - anyone who criticises lack of investment - need to have a think back to this decision - and whether you supported it or not.

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Some fair points. And the notion put forward by Hammond was sound.
But clearly the over-arching point is that a Gov't cannot casually renege on the manifesto that got itself elected.
There can be exceptions to that, but not conducted in the manner that Hammond apparently tried to do so.

Heaven knows there's enough evidence of Parties / Individuals saying what the feck they like to get/contest a result these days, and plenty of people apparently happy to say they wholeheartedly enjoyed the bullsh1t, and please could they have some more to chug on.
It's almost like its OK, as it's a major part of the game now.

The trouble with this I had sympathy for those who are truly set up as self employed , it was a pointless exercise ,however a lot of us know there are a lot of undeclared earning and taxes existing in that black economy ,that the lowly paid dont get to exploit .

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Amazing isnt it - a Govt makes a decision, which it looks like was a mistake and it reverses it within a week - and some say it's a catastrophic cataclysmic event - others would see it as listening and making good their mistake.

Personally - they should have kept the NI changes in place (it affected me probably the worse). Next time there is an NHS crisis - anyone who criticises lack of investment - need to have a think back to this decision - and whether you supported it or not.

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Did different people write those two paragraphs?

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

You're doing a Corbyn here.

1. I am amazed how different people react (depending on political viewpoint) when a Govt reverses a previous decision

2. I was more than ok with being taxed more money - I can afford it.

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Amazed? Life must be a circus of wonder if this obvious shit still amazes you.

So just to clarify, if there is a crisis in the NHS (if, lol) then you would place the blame squarely on the people who opposed this NI rise? Not the people who run it?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the proposed increase in NI contributions by the self-employed, the “wit” and smugness of Hammond during his budget speech may yet come back to haunt him. I believe Corbyn to be a decent man but a leader of a political party he is not, even so he did not deserve the kind of ridicule that he was subjected to. Also as an aside, what a bad example some of the MPs set, happily tapping away on their mobiles/laptops during the speeches! All engaged on official Parliamentary business of course.

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Oh boy, didn't it 'arf! He didn't look too smug today did he.