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"As long as it's free at the point of service"
I heard this line so much regarding the nhs in the lead up to the election.
This London fire has highlighted that private companies will take any shortcuts necessary when they primary aim is to make money.
Disgusting negligence that cannot be replicated in our health system.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thehumblegringo
I heard this line so much regarding the nhs in the lead up to the election.
This London fire has highlighted that private companies will take any shortcuts necessary when they primary aim is to make money.
Disgusting negligence that cannot be replicated in our health system.
Agreed,
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Agreed,
Seconded.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Ah yes, our wonderful NHS - completely negligent -free. Having just lost a friend who suffered at the hands of the NHS [who have only recently admitted liability], can't say I'd agree with that. Also, not sure what 'negligence you're referring to, but obviously not the fire fighters sending residents back into their flats when they were leaving to escape..
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Quiet Monkfish
Ah yes, our wonderful NHS - completely negligent -free. Having just lost a friend who suffered at the hands of the NHS [who have only recently admitted liability], can't say I'd agree with that. Also, not sure what 'negligence you're referring to, but obviously not the fire fighters sending residents back into their flats when they were leaving to escape..
Is it hard spending your your life as a heartless total **** ? Tory voter with pots of private health insurance I suppose ?
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
What do you think is better in terms of cost and value :-
The NHS being charged £1000 per treatment for kidney stones treatment (for ONE treatment)
or
A service that charges £500 per treatment, where if they dont treat the kidney stone on the first treatment - there will be 2 further treatments at no cost.
Option 1 is what they were doing at the Heath , Option 2 is what they do at Great Ormond Street - source - my sister who works there.
If you think that everything the NHS provides is a perfect panacea of all things good - you are sadly mistaken. I am all for the NHS provisioning services by other health care providers. If they provide a bad service - the NHS has the clout to cancel the provisioning contract. Something internally that the NHS provides - you have no choice but to use it. A no choice option breeds bad service and complacency.
I am only in favour of this type of thing where the NHS retains overall control of the service being provided.
(ps try and remember by the way that Health is a devolved power to the WAG)
Some of what the Welsh NHS does is great , other things are really poor. CPD medication for example and red tape that you can only dream of.
Tory tosser. We all know you are.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
I'm in no way suggesting that the NHS is perfect and i also know of needless deaths under the care of that system.
However, my partner is a nurse and i know how much pressure is being heaped upon her service due to the current squeeze that is going on.
Like others have recently echoed, the current accepted approach is that if something is not making money then it cannot be successful.
For me lives are far more important than money and i believe it's evident that we are heading towards an American style health insurance system.
As someone who hasn't got a huge amount but could probably afford private health care for my family i still don't take the approach that my family is all that is important.
I believe that everyone deserves free healthcare not just the few.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thehumblegringo
I heard this line so much regarding the nhs in the lead up to the election.
This London fire has highlighted that private companies will take any shortcuts necessary when they primary aim is to make money.
Disgusting negligence that cannot be replicated in our health system.
Can I just say Mid-Staffordshire Health Authority if we want to discuss negligence.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
What do you think is better in terms of cost and value :-
The NHS being charged £1000 per treatment for kidney stones treatment (for ONE treatment)
or
A service that charges £500 per treatment, where if they dont treat the kidney stone on the first treatment - there will be 2 further treatments at no cost.
Option 1 is what they were doing at the Heath , Option 2 is what they do at Great Ormond Street - source - my sister who works there.
If you think that everything the NHS provides is a perfect panacea of all things good - you are sadly mistaken. I am all for the NHS provisioning services by other health care providers. If they provide a bad service - the NHS has the clout to cancel the provisioning contract. Something internally that the NHS provides - you have no choice but to use it. A no choice option breeds bad service and complacency.
I am only in favour of this type of thing where the NHS retains overall control of the service being provided.
(ps try and remember by the way that Health is a devolved power to the WAG)
Some of what the Welsh NHS does is great , other things are really poor. CPD medication for example and red tape that you can only dream of.
If you analyse it treatment by treatment (I will assume you aren't making it up) of course you will find things that are inefficient within the NHS. Simple truth is that the total amount we spend on healthcare in this country isn't enough, pretending that privatisation will fix the problems present within the UK healthcare sector is frankly insulting people's intelligence.
Government knows this, any drive for privatisation is simply to distance themselves from the disaster waiting to happen.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueWales
Is it hard spending your your life as a heartless total **** ? Tory voter with pots of private health insurance I suppose ?
I notice you are directing your vitriol and malice towards anyone with different views than yours. No doubt you will swell with pride when I tell you that makes you a typical socialist..
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Can I just say Mid-Staffordshire Health Authority if we want to discuss negligence.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick
Can I just say Mid-Staffordshire Health Authority if we want to discuss negligence.
You already did Mark.
Further up the thread.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr Lecter
You already did Mark.
Further up the thread.
.?
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr Lecter
You already did Mark.
Further up the thread.
Great discussion so far
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
Eric - every year the demands on the NHS go up. For example Welsh Ambulance Service has a funding increase for 4% - yet for some reason the increase in call outs has gone up by 8% recently (which is why WAST has problems).
Let's remove the magic money tree option for a moment. You cant really allow for the exponential growth in any service - unless we find out why / where the extra demand is coming from (logical to me).
What the NHS management have to do - is try and get the same for less money or at least more for the same money , then the money saved can go elsewhere in the NHS. Another example NHS phone charges - it used to be £300 million a year - so in England they switched to IP phones (free calls) - that money saved was then spent elsewhere.
Nurses in the Heath - for some reason the Vale Health board will be charged a lot for a Bank Nurse, when in reality for some reason they dont want to pay the time and half overtime instead to the same nurse ?. There are massive savings to be made from inefficiencies in the NHS. CPD medicines - why are Welsh Health boards using very old and expensive medicines when there are cheaper and better available - and why then does every single health board in wales have to then test them separately.
So I agree - put the extra 1p on income tax , or 1% on inheritance tax etc - BUT please do not ignore the wastage that goes on - as that is an insult to everyone's intelligence as well as wallet.
Chucking money at a problem seldom works. Ive worked in the NHS over the years, I have a close family relative in Cardiff and Vale who has to juggle finances on a daily basis and (a now retired) relative who was top of his profession at the heath, who when he retired told me he only ever worked 3.5 days a week - the remainder was at bupa on fee paying patients.
I dont think we will solve the NHS on a Friday night on a football forum - so I'm off for a beer or 2
Oh, please don't keep on saying "Magic money tree", it's just "strong and stable" mark II :hehe:.
I'm not denying what you say, but haven't the events of the last few days almost certainly proved that "cheaper" doesn't always mean better?
I look at the four points the writer of this piece about the Grenfell Tower fire
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-inequality
makes to sum up what he says and I can't help thinking he's nailed it completely.
Also, the penultimate paragraph of this piece
https://www.ft.com/content/94ba1a62-...abdc0?mhq5j=e2
makes a very telling and, so relevant given current events, point about the attitude of someone who was in a very influential position in the Conservative portion of the 2010-15 Coalition government.
Frankly, anything or anybody that thinks in the way described in those two links (and I accept that it can be said to a smaller degree about the New Labour administrations of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown) should be kept well away from the NHS!
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Oh, please don't keep on saying "Magic money tree", it's just "strong and stable" mark II :hehe:.
I'm not denying what you say, but haven't the events of the last few days almost certainly proved that "cheaper" doesn't always mean better?
I look at the four points the writer of this piece about the Grenfell Tower fire
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-inequality
makes to sum up what he says and I can't help thinking he's nailed it completely.
Also, the penultimate paragraph of this piece
https://www.ft.com/content/94ba1a62-...abdc0?mhq5j=e2
makes a very telling and, so relevant given current events, point about the attitude of someone who was in a very influential position in the Conservative portion of the 2010-15 Coalition government.
Frankly, anything or anybody that thinks in the way described in those two links (and I accept that it can be said to a smaller degree about the New Labour administrations of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown) should be kept well away from the NHS!
Can't read the article about Steve Hilton. FT articles sren't free
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
On a related note, i think the conservatives are starting to find the "magic money tree"
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
Eric - every year the demands on the NHS go up. For example Welsh Ambulance Service has a funding increase for 4% - yet for some reason the increase in call outs has gone up by 8% recently (which is why WAST has problems).
Let's remove the magic money tree option for a moment. You cant really allow for the exponential growth in any service - unless we find out why / where the extra demand is coming from (logical to me).
What the NHS management have to do - is try and get the same for less money or at least more for the same money , then the money saved can go elsewhere in the NHS. Another example NHS phone charges - it used to be £300 million a year - so in England they switched to IP phones (free calls) - that money saved was then spent elsewhere.
Nurses in the Heath - for some reason the Vale Health board will be charged a lot for a Bank Nurse, when in reality for some reason they dont want to pay the time and half overtime instead to the same nurse ?. There are massive savings to be made from inefficiencies in the NHS. CPD medicines - why are Welsh Health boards using very old and expensive medicines when there are cheaper and better available - and why then does every single health board in wales have to then test them separately.
So I agree - put the extra 1p on income tax , or 1% on inheritance tax etc - BUT please do not ignore the wastage that goes on - as that is an insult to everyone's intelligence as well as wallet.
Chucking money at a problem seldom works. Ive worked in the NHS over the years, I have a close family relative in Cardiff and Vale who has to juggle finances on a daily basis and (a now retired) relative who was top of his profession at the heath, who when he retired told me he only ever worked 3.5 days a week - the remainder was at bupa on fee paying patients.
I dont think we will solve the NHS on a Friday night on a football forum - so I'm off for a beer or 2
The simple fact is that all the wonderful systems that people cite as alternative methods of operating healthcare share one thing, the cost per head is higher. It feels like they are running it down in order to justify privatisation.
Privatisation is the 'magic money tree' of the right, it solves all problems. I am with you on not ignoring the waste, and I fully agree that did happen all over the public sector. The majority of cuts now are beyond that, public sector is expected to pretend to the end user that the service will stay the same whilst funding simply won't allow it - a good example of this is the facebook response by the firefighter to Boris that was posted in the thread on the main board.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Can't read the article about Steve Hilton. FT articles sren't free
I was able to do so at the time I posted it, but can't now - I found an article which mentions the part I talked about;-
"If this latter point sounds exaggerated, consider the Whitehall career of Steve Hilton, who was David Cameron’s “blue sky thinker” before moving to California to become a Silicon Valley sage, then returning last summer to detail the case for Brexit and show off his tan. In government, Hilton ran a “red tape challenge”, hoping to banish reams of dead weight from the statute books. Instead, as the former Liberal Democrat adviser Giles Wilkes records, weary civil servants had to defend basic safety measures: “Only the determination of hardy officials saved the public from the return of flammable sofas.” "
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Private companies don't always look to squeeze every penny instead of protecting the public as you suggest. That is a way of looking at business that corbyn instills in the public. Hate first, logic later.
The vast majority of private firms operate above and beyond what is required.
Why? Because that is good for business. Social media and the media can absolutely destroys brands nowadays. The brand, service and product quality is everything.
A relative of mine had an op to fix arthritis in his hands on the NHS. THey made them so much worse the only option given was private care (which failed due to had bad the previous ops went) or amputation. I know very few people who have had good experiences with the NHS.
I don't understand the in's and out's. More money should be put into it. Until that time the discussion on whether it is viable can't be made really can it?.
But funding does rise year on year doesn't it?.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Oh, please don't keep on saying "Magic money tree", it's just "strong and stable" mark II :hehe:.
I'm not denying what you say, but haven't the events of the last few days almost certainly proved that "cheaper" doesn't always mean better?
I look at the four points the writer of this piece about the Grenfell Tower fire
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-inequality
makes to sum up what he says and I can't help thinking he's nailed it completely.
Also, the penultimate paragraph of this piece
https://www.ft.com/content/94ba1a62-...abdc0?mhq5j=e2
makes a very telling and, so relevant given current events, point about the attitude of someone who was in a very influential position in the Conservative portion of the 2010-15 Coalition government.
Frankly, anything or anybody that thinks in the way described in those two links (and I accept that it can be said to a smaller degree about the New Labour administrations of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown) should be kept well away from the NHS!
I know, it's awful the way some people bang on about 'where's the money going to come from'. Who wants to bothered by all that capitalistic mantra, eh ?
On the subject of the NHS, I can't understand the national obsession with it. It wasn't the first by some decades, and it certainly isn't the best -far from it. And it's certainly been privatised in part since 1948. The private sector has developed the life-saving drugs, the life saving procedures, the life saving equipment. And continues to do so. I've had a procedure carried out which was developed by a large American Company, and I take a couple of tablets that were developed and tested by another drug company. True, the excellent surgeon was excellently trained in the public/NHS sector, but nobody would stand a chance without those nasty businesses and corporations ..
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
You are as predictable as a Dianne Abbott sick note.
And you are as predictable as Theresa May in you lack of empathy for the poor.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Quiet Monkfish
I notice you are directing your vitriol and malice towards anyone with different views than yours. No doubt you will swell with pride when I tell you that makes you a typical socialist..
I'm not a socialist as it happens but you are certainly a ****.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
Originally Posted by BlueWales View Post
Is it hard spending your your life as a heartless total **** ? Tory voter with pots of private health insurance I suppose ?
I notice you are directing your vitriol and malice towards anyone with different views than yours. No doubt you will swell with pride when I tell you that makes you a typical socialist..
:hehe: Hit that nail bang on the head
See below Billy one mate.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Quiet Monkfish
I know, it's awful the way some people bang on about 'where's the money going to come from'. Who wants to bothered by all that capitalistic mantra, eh ?
On the subject of the NHS, I can't understand the national obsession with it. It wasn't the first by some decades, and it certainly isn't the best -far from it. And it's certainly been privatised in part since 1948. The private sector has developed the life-saving drugs, the life saving procedures, the life saving equipment. And continues to do so. I've had a procedure carried out which was developed by a large American Company, and I take a couple of tablets that were developed and tested by another drug company. True, the excellent surgeon was excellently trained in the public/NHS sector, but nobody would stand a chance without those nasty businesses and corporations ..
What do they say about sarcasm being the lowest form of wit?
What you say does nothing to counter the main thrust of what is said in that article - - there has been a philosophy in Government for thirty years or more (including under a Labour Government) whereby safety is compromised on the back of financial and ideological considerations.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
You are missing a fourth group. The government officials who wrote and signed off the regulations the fire safety officer was working to.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PontBlue
You are missing a fourth group. The government officials who wrote and signed off the regulations the fire safety officer was working to.
Possibly the builders under a tight schedule (well the SHAREHOLDERS have to see a return)
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Of course everything should be free at the point of service , along with responsibility, skilled professionals, standards, value for money ,accountability .
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueWales
I'm not a socialist as it happens but you are certainly a ****.
Unnecessary abuse.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I was able to do so at the time I posted it, but can't now - I found an article which mentions the part I talked about;-
"If this latter point sounds exaggerated, consider the Whitehall career of Steve Hilton, who was David Cameron’s “blue sky thinker” before moving to California to become a Silicon Valley sage, then returning last summer to detail the case for Brexit and show off his tan. In government, Hilton ran a “red tape challenge”, hoping to banish reams of dead weight from the statute books. Instead, as the former Liberal Democrat adviser Giles Wilkes records, weary civil servants had to defend basic safety measures: “Only the determination of hardy officials saved the public from the return of flammable sofas.” "
reducing 'red tape', and maintaining compliance/safety can easily be achieved. In fact more 'clear thinking' with fewer quangos,committees, and departments, means the buck cannot be passed around like pass-the-parcel. Is anyone going to disagree that when the prime minister announced a 'public enquiry', their initial thoughts were that's another 5 years, two thousand witnesses, hundreds of lawyers and tens of thousands of pages which only the journalists will ever have the stomach to read through ..
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick
Unnecessary abuse.
No just telling it as it is.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueWales
No just telling it as it is.
Tell me why the poster deserved abuse, please.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nick
Tell me why the poster deserved abuse, please.
He accused me of being a Socialist which is not correct and spouted Tory views which are anathema at the moment thanks to Mrs May. Free board I'll say what I like Tory boy. Go pick on your scumbag mates for their vile views. I'm not backing down.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueWales
He accused me of being a Socialist which is not correct and spouted Tory views which are anathema at the moment thanks to Mrs May. Free board I'll say what I like Tory boy. Go pick on your scumbag mates for their vile views. I'm not backing down.
Nice chap.
Best wishes.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueWales
He accused me of being a Socialist which is not correct and spouted Tory views which are anathema at the moment thanks to Mrs May. Free board I'll say what I like Tory boy. Go pick on your scumbag mates for their vile views. I'm not backing down.
Free board you say, yet you hurl abuse at a poster who airs views that you consider anathema?
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
Free board you say, yet you hurl abuse at a poster who airs views that you consider anathema?
No sign of hypocrisy there at all was there..
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlueWales
He accused me of being a Socialist which is not correct and spouted Tory views which are anathema at the moment thanks to Mrs May. Free board I'll say what I like Tory boy. Go pick on your scumbag mates for their vile views. I'm not backing down.
Politics aside, you need help lad..
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
You are as predictable as a Dianne Abbott sick note.
Nice to be able to trivialise diabetes.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
The issue as I see it with privatisation is that it will get to a saturation point when the private firms running the NHS will be able to increase their charges to the payers and there will be absolutely nothing that the payers can do to reverse it. It will still be free of charge at the point of access, but behind the scenes the costs will be spiralling and less treatments will therefore be available. This will then lead to the need of private health insurance which will lead to further health inequalities.
If you think the likes of Virgin etc... running the NHS services, and the pharma companies providing the health technologies give a $hit about the patient's wellbeing then you are totally mistaken. They will think only about their shareholders and their bottom line. They need people to be ill to make money, they wouldn't be involved in this sector if there was no money to be made.
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Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
Eric - I think PFI was the magic tree for the NHS - started by Major - but was taken to the brink and beyond by Gordon Brown.
With regard to the fire - you could have had 1000 fire fighters in attendance - it would not have made any difference - thanks to the cladding / method of installation.
Politicians of all sides would love to be up front to the public - but if they were - they would never get elected.
I'll make an exception with Corbyn - he was up front with who he would tax. And he didnt win enough seats.
I suspect if he had won - by now he would have been apologising to students for not being able to abolish tuition fees.
May will also now be forced to abandon some policies - like the winter fuel allowance, the NI for self employed will be back on the agenda - all for that one - even if it means I'll me a few hundred down on the year.
More opinions as fact - it seems to be de rigeur these days.