According to McDonnell this morning, Venezuela was not a socialist country.:facepalm:
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According to McDonnell this morning, Venezuela was not a socialist country.:facepalm:
Seumas Milne, now Corbyn’s press wrote ""Venezuela and its Latin American allies have demonstrated it’s no longer necessary to accept a failed economic model, as many social democrats in Europe still do.”
Union boss Len McCluskey saw Venezuela as a country that the rest of us should copy. “Europe might want to learn the obvious lessons from Venezuela,” he said.
Diane Abbott agreed that Venezuela showed “another way” of doing politics
Venezuela is, and has been a terrible advert for socialism, much in the way that capitalism has been stained by the tory governments in the UK, there is no moral high ground to be gained by either IMO, where are the centralists :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
This is only true for somebody who knows absolutely nothing about the country nor South America in general. It is a kleptocratic gangster state which has been financially levelled by some of the worst corruption and greed on earth. The idea that socialist principles shouldn't be weaved into our society because 'well, look at Venezuela' is about as dumb an argument as you can find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelsonca61
If the quote is to be taken in isolation, John McDonnell is quite obviously correct in this instance.
Oh, ffs Eric!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Go on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
That article does a great job of not recognising any corruption within Venezuela thereby rendering it 'incomplete' at best or a complete load of biased rubbish at worst. You think there was no government level corruption and that every penny of the income from Venezuela's vast oil reserves was spent on failed social programmes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
What are your thoughts on Bolivia? They have done a far better job of managing a natural resource boom, undeniably socialist government, not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but strangely doesn't get a mention very often.
My view is pretty simple, the human instinct to be greedy will permeate whatever fantastic ideology anybody thinks they have BUT the idea that you can't have a more equal society than we currently have without imminent doom is fantasy.
You would like socialism Croesy, you would be the one stealing the money and sticking it in the Cayman Islands while everyone starves.
lol :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Go on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelsonca61
Also there is quite a key difference between a centralist and centrist :hehe:
(let me guess it was autocorrect..?)
Are you serious ? :hehe::hehe::hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Yes go on, tear me to pieces...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelsonca61
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
It is amusing that the Tories still seem to be banging the Venezuela drum. Most of the electorate either couldn't care, or couldn't point to the place on a map.
Always the snide little remarks when you find yourself on the wrong side of an argument. You should be ashamed of yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Wrong side? You have yet to make your argument. Posting an article without comment doesnt pass for an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
Snide remarks? Still hurts a little from when you called me a paedo sympathiser.
There can be no argument, Venezuela is and has been for all recent history a socialist / Communist country. All its leaders in recent years have been socialist / communist - from Betancourt through Chavez and through to Maduro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Interesting to note there that the richest person in Venezuela is Chavez's daughter, Maria Gabriella Chavez, worth $4.2Billion. Not bad from being the daughter of a president who said being rich is very bad.
Venezuela may well be a gangster state but it is impossible to deny that for many, many years the country has been a socialist / Communist state.
Unfortunately, the likes of you nor your leader can see what he has done to the country. Corbyn tweeted - "Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world" - I am not sure that the good people of Venezuela quite agree with that view.
The imposition of price controls was an utter failure of policy, driving many, many companies supplying and producing the basics in Venezuela out of business. Socialism has meant that the inflation rate in Venezuela is now 18,000% - EIGHTEEN THOUSAND PERCENT, as the Government continues to print more and more money.
Communism and socialism has been the cause of the demise of Venezuela and will continue to do so. Remember this is the country with the highest known oil reserves in the whole world. Who else but the communists / socialists could have blown that for its own people.
An utter an abject failure.
You haven't mentioned one expensive socialist policy that caused the countries downfall but you have accidentally hit the nail on the head and gone a decent distance to proving me correct so thank you. You are right, almost everyone around Chavez got insanely wealthy. Is it a defined principle of socialism that the people in power gain extraordinary personal wealth? Clearly not, in the same way that theoretically capitalism isn't supposed to leave parts of society destitute as we see in the USA and UK? Nope of course not. Failed implementation is the issue here. The main problem with socialism is it concentrates absolute power and therefore the human instinct to **** everyone else over for your own personal gain is quite straightforward to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
I know you really want to blame this theory because you have been taught to hate equality and intuitively adore the idea of an extreme meritocracy but it's more complicated than one being bad and another being good. What you are doing is no different to blaming 'capitalism' for our problems.
Eric - For your information, I have not been taught to hate equality in any way, shape or form. That is a massive leap of faith from you to suggest that someone has taught me to hate equality. Neither do I support the idea of "Supreme meritocracy" - Again, another massive leap of faith. You appear to love to put words, deeds and thoughts forward on behalf of others!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Chavez was socialist / Communist as have been the others before him and since him. They have actually not given a flying one about the citizens of their country, much like, in reality, but to a lesser degree, is the case with the socialists and communist now running what used to be the Labour Party. They don't really give a damn about the population in general, all they are concerned about is their ideology, whilst sat in their gilded Islington mansions, whilst their children toddle off to the best Grammar schools and private schools that their money can pay for, whilst sneering at the working classes, as per Thornberry / Lady Nugee from a short while back.
With regards to expensive socialist policies that you say I did not mention, perhaps you should read more closely then, I'd suggest -
"The imposition of price controls was an utter failure of policy, driving many, many companies supplying and producing the basics in Venezuela out of business. Socialism has meant that the inflation rate in Venezuela is now 18,000% - EIGHTEEN THOUSAND PERCENT, as the Government continues to print more and more money."
This together with other policies such as state control of foreign currency exchange, encouraging the black market and with it hyper inflation. Also, as mentioned the Governments decision to constantly print extra money and to regularly increase the minimum wage in the country, leaving the country unable to get credit following previous default on Government bonds and having to continue to print cash further increasing inflation as the value of their money free-falls.
First paragraph - that is rich considering yours and ninianclarks behaviour in the other thread.
Ofgem recently announced price controls within the energy industry. Do we have a socialist government.
All your examples are just proof that the Venezuelan government did a really shit job.
Socialism is defined as a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Now, can I remind you estimates suggest that hundreds of billions of dollars of oil revenue has gone 'missing' over the past decade and plenty more diverted beforehand. Does that look like a government who is following a socialist model?
Your paragraph about socialist leaders and socialists within the Labour party not being interested in the people they represent is in complete agreement with my point above about intuitive human greed. Can you not see that? People are people whether they describe themselves as socialist or not.
Not everyone is greedy as you are suggesting. It would not have been possible to do what the likes of Chavez has done in other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Have you now managed to read all the bits where I gave examples of expensive socialist policies? Or are you going to conveniently ignore these?
You mentioned price controls, that was it wasn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
In the other thread you badgered me for answers to incomplete questions because you felt obliged to stick up for your little chum. He will probably be in here to give you a belly rub shortly.
'That's what they all say but certainly not what they all do' - ah so what you are saying is that the failing in Venezuela is down to people not doing what they said they were going to do. Yes I agree with that because it is exactly what I have been saying for the entire bloody thread.
Badgered you??? I asked you twice. If you consider that to be badgering then I would suggest that you need a little help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Obliged to stick up for my chum?? I don't know what you are on about. There is certainly nobody on here I even know, let alone consider to be a chum.
What you have said all along is that Venezuela is not a socialist country, which quite blindingly obviously it is. To all but the challenged.
On a broader point and not trying to score points, what is the best model for a communists / socialists country that we could compare or wish to become ,or with power do they simply become the same ego centrist ,greedy , self centered folk, that they accuse the right of becoming?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
This is not about left or right. People are selfish and greedy, naturally, biologically! Socialism is theory based on everyone acting in the interests of the group, it can't work without violence and tyranny. Theoretical socialism hasn't been tried anywhere and won't be tried anywhere. Free market doesn't work either, these are economic and political theories.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Nah, no autocorrect, used the wrong word, you got me :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
they spoiled, spoilt the South African world cup however. :hehe:
You are so ****ing stupid, you've actually spent a good portion of the day arguing with Eric Cartman, before then going on to actually prove him correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
You seem to sit in judgment of people, whilst conveniently forgetting some of your shit soup servings of previous incarnations.
Who can forget you gloriously using the death of a schoolgirl in a park (she was hit by a branch) during a teacher's strike to score political points? You've often aimed to get as low as that, without really succeeding too much. If you were on fire, I would happily piss all over you, just as people piss all over your poorly researched and "Tories good, labour bad" monochromatic view of the world.
Have a wee look at the state of your Government, even your MPs are preparing for another election. Socialism is coming, and it's not before time.
Read Corbyn's manifesto for the last election. I had no intention of voting for him until I read it. That's exactly what this country needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Good for you. The reality is that if you were on fire i'd happily not piss all over you. Best wishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt
Probably best for you both to nip this in the bud now Mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
In fairness to Crassy - at least I know where he stands on matters. Ok so he is unable to debate, and he is a first class moron. All that aside, he is what he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Lecter
You, on the other hand, have taken the moronic art of "banter" and given it a one night stand with "Internet forums" and conceived a child that can only be described as inane, although you may call it "sophistication". First class show, well done you daft old twat. Your constant haranguing of Croesy is borderline psychotic (even if it is sometimes necessary).
Wow, we have another one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo
"Wow, we have another one??"
Another one that disagrees with your views? Is that acceptable or not??
Venezuela’s Bolivar Surges Past 2,000,000 VEF/USD - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ru...#axzz5Hxbty7Mg
'In the past week, Venezuela’s economic death spiral has picked up speed. When, Venezuela’s hyperinflationary episode began in November 2016 the bolivar was valued on the black-market (read: free-market) at roughly 1,500 VEF/USD. Today, 6/8/18, a greenback will fetch a stunning 2.3 million bolivars. Less than a month ago, that same greenback would have fetched “only” 800,000 bolivars. With the collapse of the bolivar, inflation has soared to a record high of 37,076%.'
In the past fortnight or so the value of Argentina and Brazil's currencies have bombed and so has Turkey's. They've been able to limit the damage as they've used foreign reserves and hiked interest rates to prop them up.
No another one who says I am wrong and then spends the entire post agreeing with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
And the rest of his mates said :::Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo
Seumas Milne, now Corbyn’s press wrote ""Venezuela and its Latin American allies have demonstrated it’s no longer necessary to accept a failed economic model, as many social democrats in Europe still do.”
Union boss Len McCluskey saw Venezuela as a country that the rest of us should copy. “Europe might want to learn the obvious lessons from Venezuela,” he said.
Diane Abbott agreed that Venezuela showed “another way” of doing politics
Dangerous times
Just been looking at the US dollar to Venezuelan bolivar charts.
10 years ago two bolivars purchased one US dollar. Five years ago it needed nine bolivars to purchase the same one US dollar, and today 2.3 million bolivars is required.
I always like the argument that Venezuela is an advert for what socialism is; It's like arguing The democratic reublics of Congo and North Korea are arguments of why democracy doesn't work. If you actually think what's going on there is true socialism you're either looking to point score or are a complete idiot who cannot understand a topic beyond basic principles. You also would have to think there's only one kind of socialism.
I'm not saying socialism is the correct or only way to run a society but if you want a better representation of what a successful socialist country looks like finland, denmark and to a certain extent Canada are much better examples.
So it isn't socialism then, it might be an argument of why socialism cannot work or why it doesn' work in certain areas. But by the very definition of socialism the people in government getting rich whilst the proletrait eat rats is not socialism.Quote:
People get lazy, people cheat and that's what happens in life in general - whether you are left - right - or in the middle or anywhere else.