I accept the gulf in class but mistakes, mistakes, and more mistakes !!

2 minutes gone and a defensive wall that jumps and disintegrates as Rashford strikes.

Herrera left all on his own

Morrison misses tackle on edge of box.

Manga, then Gunnarson give the ball away deep in own half.

Morrison caught wrong side of Lindgard.

Our season won't be decided upon games like this, but for the 1st time this season at home I felt the players, defensively especially, let themselves down..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

2 minutes gone and a defensive wall that jumps and disintegrates as Rashford strikes.

Herrera left all on his own

Morrison misses tackle on edge of box.

Manga, then Gunnarson give the ball away deep in own half.

Morrison caught wrong side of Lindgard.

Our season won't be decided upon games like this, but for the 1st time this season at home I felt the players, defensively especially, let themselves down..

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You are correct our defence was awful at times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chepstow

You are correct our defence was awful at times.

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Not helped by the fact that United were told to "enjoy themselves" and "fu**ing shoot"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

2 minutes gone and a defensive wall that jumps and disintegrates as Rashford strikes.

Herrera left all on his own

Morrison misses tackle on edge of box.

Manga, then Gunnarson give the ball away deep in own half.

Morrison caught wrong side of Lindgard.

Our season won't be decided upon games like this, but for the 1st time this season at home I felt the players, defensively especially, let themselves down..

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Murphy provided no cover to Cunningham for the 2nd, fatty Shaw ran passed Hoilett time after time & Bamba directly at fault for 4th & 5th. Inept all around really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

Murphy provided no cover to Cunningham for the 2nd, fatty Shaw ran passed Hoilett time after time & Bamba directly at fault for 4th & 5th. Inept all around really.

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Maybe time to dispense with playing 2 wingers and go 4-4-2 with Reid up with Patterson and more a defensive minded wide man playing instead of Hoillet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Des Parrot

Murphy provided no cover to Cunningham for the 2nd, fatty Shaw ran passed Hoilett time after time & Bamba directly at fault for 4th & 5th. Inept all around really.

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Im glad someonelse could see who was directly responsible for the last couple of goals. What the **** Bamba was trying to do for their 5th only he knows, and I don’t know why he was arguing about the penalty. He got done like a kipper with some quick feet and then in his effort to redeem himself fouled Lingard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawnmower

Maybe time to dispense with playing 2 wingers and go 4-4-2 with Reid up with Patterson and more a defensive minded wide man playing instead of Hoillet

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perfect remedy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawnmower

Maybe time to dispense with playing 2 wingers and go 4-4-2 with Reid up with Patterson and more a defensive minded wide man playing instead of Hoillet

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He wont do that, Wingers are Warnock's everything and it means that we only have two central midfielders instead of three, both in flat positions, we can't even compete with three in there. We simply need to add some quality to the squad and Warnock needs to be a bit more adventurous. The players we have probably aren't quite good enough at this level although i don't believe that they're as bad as they show on times. Warnock may have an ability to get 11 players to play in a way that is affective at championship level, he just can't do it at Premier league level, that's not entirely his fault as he doesn'treally possess the players who can add that little bit more, although i'd say his tactics contribute towards our poor play. We can't pass, make a run, compose ourselves, peel of players etc-The fundamentals of being a half decent football team. The other concern for me is that we are not building a style of play as a club, eventually a new manager will come in and will have to rip up 'The Warnock Way' as it's not sustainable, it may take a new manager two seasons before he can get his style and message across as the players we have now seem to have forgotten how to do the basics, either that or they're being instructed not to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

He wont do that, Wingers are Warnock's everything and it means that we only have two central midfielders instead of three, both in flat positions, we can't even compete with three in there. We simply need to add some quality to the squad and Warnock needs to be a bit more adventurous. The players we have probably aren't quite good enough at this level although i don't believe that they're as bad as they show on times. Warnock may have an ability to get 11 players to play in a way that is affective at championship level, he just can't do it at Premier league level, that's not entirely his fault as he doesn'treally possess the players who can add that little bit more, although i'd say his tactics contribute towards our poor play. We can't pass, make a run, compose ourselves, peel of players etc-The fundamentals of being a half decent football team. The other concern for me is that we are not building a style of play as a club, eventually a new manager will come in and will have to rip up 'The Warnock Way' as it's not sustainable, it may take a new manager two seasons before he can get his style and message across as the players we have now seem to have forgotten how to do the basics, either that or they're being instructed not to.

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We have the players to change the style if required. Reid, Murphy, Hoilett, Arter, Camarasa, Zohore can play a different way if asked. Tomlin is another if he was brought back into the fold if we went down and a new manager philosophy.

Patterson, for all his knack of chipping in with the odd goal, gives the ball away all the time and so if we are going to persist with him upfront than we can only play one way and that’s get it forward and hope for a defensive mistake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

He wont do that, Wingers are Warnock's everything and it means that we only have two central midfielders instead of three, both in flat positions, we can't even compete with three in there. We simply need to add some quality to the squad and Warnock needs to be a bit more adventurous. The players we have probably aren't quite good enough at this level although i don't believe that they're as bad as they show on times. Warnock may have an ability to get 11 players to play in a way that is affective at championship level, he just can't do it at Premier league level, that's not entirely his fault as he doesn'treally possess the players who can add that little bit more, although i'd say his tactics contribute towards our poor play. We can't pass, make a run, compose ourselves, peel of players etc-The fundamentals of being a half decent football team. The other concern for me is that we are not building a style of play as a club, eventually a new manager will come in and will have to rip up 'The Warnock Way' as it's not sustainable, it may take a new manager two seasons before he can get his style and message across as the players we have now seem to have forgotten how to do the basics, either that or they're being instructed not to.

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Haven’t we played with 3 centre kids most of the season.
Yesterday- Arter, Gunnar, Camerasa?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawnmower

Haven’t we played with 3 centre kids most of the season.
Yesterday- Arter, Gunnar, Camerasa?

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As Alan Hansen once foolishly said “You won’t win anything with kids”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

He wont do that, Wingers are Warnock's everything and it means that we only have two central midfielders instead of three, both in flat positions, we can't even compete with three in there.

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I think the nail has been hit on the head there. Teams have successfully been able to pass and run their way through our midfield when there's 3 there, so what's the difference between dropping one centre midfield grafter for another striker and giving ourselves more of an attacking option?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

We have the players to change the style if required. Reid, Murphy, Hoilett, Arter, Camarasa, Zohore can play a different way if asked. Tomlin is another if he was brought back into the fold if we went down and a new manager philosophy.

Patterson, for all his knack of chipping in with the odd goal, gives the ball away all the time and so if we are going to persist with him upfront than we can only play one way and that’s get it forward and hope for a defensive mistake.

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I certainly believe that we could change style and try to play through teams although i'm not sure that the players you've mentioned could do it consistently although they're certainly much better players than they're showing at the moment. I've got to honest and say that i don't really rate Arter, i can't see what other supporters can, apart from a willingless to run, his general play is poor and his anticipation is terrible. Murphy makes some poor decisions and his delivery at times is dreadful and he seems intent on trying to take his man on at every opportunity, when it would be easier to start again-maybe he's being told to play that way. Hoilett is a much better player when he picks the ball up in a deep position, he has a bit of vision and his movement is good, he's not great with his back to goal. I think that Reid, Camarasa and Zohore have more to offer, there's a footballing brain or two amongst those three, it's got to be about giving them the platform and freedom to express that, and the support that goes with it. Tomlin........I just don't know.....

We were overawed and well beaten. Some players look tired and the sooner we get new players in the sooner we can go again. I fear for our next 3 games. Our only hope I think is for Warnock to freshen up the team. If that means resting Etheridge, Bamba, Gunner and Patterson so be it. The only positive from yesterday was Zohore who showed in his cameo how a centre forward should run the channels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeremy corbyn

We were overawed and well beaten. Some players look tired and the sooner we get new players in the sooner we can go again. I fear for our next 3 games. Our only hope I think is for Warnock to freshen up the team. If that means resting Etheridge, Bamba, Gunner and Patterson so be it. The only positive from yesterday was Zohore who showed in his cameo how a centre forward should run the channels.

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Zohore was a positive, although he had nothing to lose. It was 4-1 and the dynamics of the game had changed, there was more space and United were playing with the proverbial Cigar in hand. Zohore needs to do it from the off when the stakes are higher and the intensity is at another level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I certainly believe that we could change style and try to play through teams although i'm not sure that the players you've mentioned could do it consistently although they're certainly much better players than they're showing at the moment. I've got to honest and say that i don't really rate Arter, i can't see what other supporters can, apart from a willingless to run, his general play is poor and his anticipation is terrible. Murphy makes some poor decisions and his delivery at times is dreadful and he seems intent on trying to take his man on at every opportunity, when it would be easier to start again-maybe he's being told to play that way. Hoilett is a much better player when he picks the ball up in a deep position, he has a bit of vision and his movement is good, he's not great with his back to goal. I think that Reid, Camarasa and Zohore have more to offer, there's a footballing brain or two amongst those three, it's got to be about giving them the platform and freedom to express that, and the support that goes with it. Tomlin........I just don't know.....

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Re:Arter. You don’t get promoted in a Bournemouth side, and help them establish themselves in the PL, if you can’t use a football. He’s being made to look like a player who just charges about the pitch like a headless chicken because we just give the ball away and 70% of the time are trying to get it back!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawnmower

Haven’t we played with 3 centre kids most of the season.
Yesterday- Arter, Gunnar, Camerasa?

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Yeah, but if we set up with a 442 then we will have two flat central midfielders and a left and right midfielder with two up front in whatever guise Warnock wants them to play. Thing is, Warnock plays with wingers because it's the safest option, it means that the fullbacks can stay put and we can always have two in the centre of midfield if one pushes on to support the striker, it also means that we're attacking from wide positions and delivering crosses which is easier to defend if we do lose the ball in those positions, basically, he wants to keep the central players out of the equation when we're attacking. With a 442 we wont have wingers or attacking fullbacks, completely flat. Two up top and it is an option, but the likelihood is that it'll be planted onto their heads and dealt with easily by defenders in this league.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeremy corbyn

We were overawed and well beaten. Some players look tired and the sooner we get new players in the sooner we can go again. I fear for our next 3 games. Our only hope I think is for Warnock to freshen up the team. If that means resting Etheridge, Bamba, Gunner and Patterson so be it. The only positive from yesterday was Zohore who showed in his cameo how a centre forward should run the channels.

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We looked jaded, but paradoxically finished strongly and our fitness after chasing them for most of the game looked fine..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Re:Arter. You don’t get promoted in a Bournemouth side, and help them establish themselves in the PL, if you can’t use a football. He’s being made to look like a player who just charges about the pitch like a headless chicken because we just give the ball away and 70% of the time are trying to get it back!!

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Hartley, i'll take your point on Arter, either way, it's not good is it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Hartley, i'll take your point on Arter, either way, it's not good is it.

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Agreed. I think the football is absolutely awful. We haven’t got the quality at this level to play like a Citeh but come on, this is the Premier League, just hoofing it anywhere is not acceptable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Agreed. I think the football is absolutely awful. We haven’t got the quality at this level to play like a Citeh but come on, this is the Premier League, just hoofing it anywhere is not acceptable.

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It's not. We have to have a plan, not just for now but for the future. The way we play just isn't sustainable and nearly every club that has employed that style of play without mixing it up a little has faltered badly. I'm not saying that we should go down the Fulham route, maybe Watford are a club to emulate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

It's not. We have to have a plan, not just for now but for the future. The way we play just isn't sustainable and nearly every club that has employed that style of play without mixing it up a little has faltered badly. I'm not saying that we should go down the Fulham route, maybe Watford are a club to emulate.

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Like you've already pointed out and I know gringo has been drumming the same drum for a long time that we play differently at every level, if bellers was to take over it would take some time for him to get the team to play the way he wants something I don't think most Cardiff fans will accept

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I certainly believe that we could change style and try to play through teams although i'm not sure that the players you've mentioned could do it consistently although they're certainly much better players than they're showing at the moment. I've got to honest and say that i don't really rate Arter, i can't see what other supporters can, apart from a willingless to run, his general play is poor and his anticipation is terrible. Murphy makes some poor decisions and his delivery at times is dreadful and he seems intent on trying to take his man on at every opportunity, when it would be easier to start again-maybe he's being told to play that way. Hoilett is a much better player when he picks the ball up in a deep position, he has a bit of vision and his movement is good, he's not great with his back to goal. I think that Reid, Camarasa and Zohore have more to offer, there's a footballing brain or two amongst those three, it's got to be about giving them the platform and freedom to express that, and the support that goes with it. Tomlin........I just don't know.....

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I agree entirely with most of the points you make in this thread especially about where we go as a club when Warnock steps down but I disagree with you regarding Murphy, I feel for the poor lad. Gone are the days when you give the ball to a Jimmy Johsnton or a George Best and say go on lad take them dancing, teams in this day and age create overloads and create one v one situations. Not us, we get the ball to Murphy or Hoilett and say take them all on, or win us a free kick or throw in. It's just not good enough for this level.

There's no excuse for our lack of imagination when you see teams in the championship doing it week in week out. Leeds, Norwich, and many other championship clubs are showing the value of having progressive managers and are a joy to watch.

I honestly believe that if Warnock had Barcelona's squad he'd still ask them to play in right areas. I've heard him say this when asked what he'd do if he managed England.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamieccfc

Like you've already pointed out and I know gringo has been drumming the same drum for a long time that we play differently at every level, if bellers was to take over it would take some time for him to get the team to play the way he wants something I don't think most Cardiff fans will accept

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It won't happen mate. I just don't think our fans are primed for it. Take the Trollope reign for example, it was extremely hard to watch but even in the first couple of games you could hear the groans from the fans to get the ball forward. And that was when the club had just come from an all time low with Slade.
People would (rightly) remember the Warnock years with great fondness so any manager who tried to change our style would be on a hiding to nothing.

This is an excellent thread by the way

Listening to Bellamy on the debate special earlier this week talking about football philosophy, director of football.etc. really excites me but only a fool would think he can just take over from Warnock and be an instant success.

He said he demanded a director of football at Oxford and that’s one of the reasons he didn’t go there in the end.

He said he doesn’t want to be dealing with owners, contracts. Etc as his job would be to prepare he team for the weekend. He said be must have that buffer between him and the owner. Wether that was a message to Tan I don’t know but he said the Director Of Football must be on the same page as him philosophy wise which would rule out Warnock for starters.

It was very interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

I agree entirely with most of the points you make in this thread especially about where we go as a club when Warnock steps down but I disagree with you regarding Murphy, I feel for the poor lad. Gone are the days when you give the ball to a Jimmy Johsnton or a George Best and say go on lad take them dancing, teams in this day and age create overloads and create one v one situations. Not us, we get the ball to Murphy or Hoilett and say take them all on, or win us a free kick or throw in. It's just not good enough for this level.

There's no excuse for our lack of imagination when you see teams in the championship doing it week in week out. Leeds, Norwich, and many other championship clubs are showing the value of having progressive managers and are a joy to watch.

I honestly believe that if Warnock had Barcelona's squad he'd still ask them to play in right areas. I've heard him say this when asked what he'd do if he managed England.

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Hoillett and Murphy are both struggling from the off lately. It's as if they accept early on games that they aren't going to beat the full back[s]. I actually think both Mendez-lang and Harris are better options at present..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I certainly believe that we could change style and try to play through teams although i'm not sure that the players you've mentioned could do it consistently although they're certainly much better players than they're showing at the moment. I've got to honest and say that i don't really rate Arter, i can't see what other supporters can, apart from a willingless to run, his general play is poor and his anticipation is terrible. Murphy makes some poor decisions and his delivery at times is dreadful and he seems intent on trying to take his man on at every opportunity, when it would be easier to start again-maybe he's being told to play that way. Hoilett is a much better player when he picks the ball up in a deep position, he has a bit of vision and his movement is good, he's not great with his back to goal. I think that Reid, Camarasa and Zohore have more to offer, there's a footballing brain or two amongst those three, it's got to be about giving them the platform and freedom to express that, and the support that goes with it. Tomlin........I just don't know.....

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I tend to agree about Arter.
One big drawback City have to playing a more passing style of football is that none of our back four can play out of defence with confidence. Yes, when we are losing and the other team drops off there's loads of space but more most of the game we cannot build a move from the back. Even the weakest Prem. sides and probably half the Championship sides have the ability to do this...

I think I'm slightly more sympathetic regarding the way we play than some in this thread. but I do think that when we are bad, we look the worst team in this division by a distance and when we are good we play like a lower league side which pulls off a giant killing act. Our season has been set up on the premise that we're just a bunch of hicks from the sticks who have no right to be in a league like the Premier, when, in reality, in terms of size of club and city, potential support and spending power. we should certainly have spent a lot more than two seasons in the top flight in the past fifty seven years - maybe we're not a Everton, West Ham, Newcastle "second tier of the Premier League club, but there are eight clubs, at least, in the division this year that we really should be looking at as equals and not some side to aspite to being.

Just like a "footballing side" that falls apart when opponents press them and get in their face, I don't believe you can ensure consolidation, or even survival, in the Premier League without the ability to retain possession and pass the ball to a decent standard - the stats show that we are the worst in the division at doing this. I believe the way we play can be a culure shock to some in this league and we have proved that we can win home sides against the weaker teams. However, after Boxing Day, every side we play will have come up against us once before and will know exactly what they will be up against, because we don't have the ability to change our approach to meet different challenges. We will be playing plenty of sides in and around the drop zone away from home in the coming months and, based on what we've seen so far, we have no capability of taking command on opponent's grounds unless we have a one man advantage - I think we will be able to pick up the odd home win here and there while playing like we have done in the second half of the season, but we need to show much, much more away from home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I think I'm slightly more sympathetic regarding the way we play than some in this thread. but I do think that when we are bad, we look the worst team in this division by a distance and when we are good we play like a lower league side which pulls off a giant killing act. Our season has been set up on the premise that we're just a bunch of hicks from the sticks who have no right to be in a league like the Premier, when, in reality, in terms of size of club and city, potential support and spending power. we should certainly have spent a lot more than two seasons in the top flight in the past fifty seven years - maybe we're not a Everton, West Ham, Newcastle "second tier of the Premier League club, but there are eight clubs, at least, in the division this year that we really should be looking at as equals and not some side to aspite to being.

Just like a "footballing side" that falls apart when opponents press them and get in their face, I don't believe you can ensure consolidation, or even survival, in the Premier League without the ability to retain possession and pass the ball to a decent standard - the stats show that we are the worst in the division at doing this. I believe the way we play can be a culure shock to some in this league and we have proved that we can win home sides against the weaker teams. However, after Boxing Day, every side we play will have come up against us once before and will know exactly what they will be up against, because we don't have the ability to change our approach to meet different challenges. We will be playing plenty of sides in and around the drop zone away from home in the coming months and, based on what we've seen so far, we have no capability of taking command on opponent's grounds unless we have a one man advantage - I think we will be able to pick up the odd home win here and there while playing like we have done in the second half of the season, but we need to show much, much more away from home.

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In our circa 100 years of league football we've been a badly run club for the best part. Even though the current owners have 'steadied the ship' in recent seasons I doubt that we would be any better than mid-table in the Championship were it not for Warnock.

Walking into the ground at 5.25pm on Saturday the 'crackle' of atmospheric electricity that games like this generate hit me immediately. I've said it before, the place FEELS like a Premiership club, more so than Palace, Burnley, Huddersfield, Fulham, Watford, Brighton, Bournemouth, but sadly our playing strength isn't. As I said to the chap next to me during the game, what a shame that we weren't just 25% better and able to make a game of it...

We just don't have anywhere near enough quality. Plain and simple. We're going to finish last. Again. Because either the manager or the owner or both have failed to equip the the team to compete consistently or even inconsistently to the bare minimum required at this level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

We just don't have anywhere near enough quality. Plain and simple. We're going to finish last. Again. Because either the manager or the owner or both have failed to equip the the team to compete consistently or even inconsistently to the bare minimum required at this level.

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Despite all what I've said in being critical, I'm aware that there's a context to everything. Maybe there isn't another manager in the world who could have achieved what Warnock has since he's been here.

We were a club that was dying on its feet with a completely divided fan base whose dialogue was only about shirt colour. He has come in and managed upwards as well as down to create a unity that hasn't been seen at our club since maybe Eddie May.

Yes I would love us to play like Man City but we are where we are and we are who we are. Malky made the mistake of chasing unrealistic targets like Wanyama and Oscar Cardozo and look where that took us.

I'd like to think we've learned from our mistakes of last time and will be on a far more stable footing if we go down than last time. I don't really want to have a "restructuring" like Swansea (who spent 7 years in the top flight) if we go down but we have spent very little money and with very little quality Warnock has still got us out of the bottom 3 at Christmas so hat's off to the guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thehumblegringo

Despite all what I've said in being critical, I'm aware that there's a context to everything. Maybe there isn't another manager in the world who could have achieved what Warnock has since he's been here.

We were a club that was dying on its feet with a completely divided fan base whose dialogue was only about shirt colour. He has come in and managed upwards as well as down to create a unity that hasn't been seen at our club since maybe Eddie May.

Yes I would love us to play like Man City but we are where we are and we are who we are. Malky made the mistake of chasing unrealistic targets like Wanyama and Oscar Cardozo and look where that took us.

I'd like to think we've learned from our mistakes of last time and will be on a far more stable footing if we go down than last time. I don't really want to have a "restructuring" like Swansea (who spent 7 years in the top flight) if we go down but we have spent very little money and with very little quality Warnock has still got us out of the bottom 3 at Christmas so hat's off to the guy.

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I get your point, but surely another 25 million wouldn't have broken the club?

Eric, we do not possess the quality to take the sting out of the game when we are struggling.
When Man It's lost the ball we managed to give it back to them within 2 passes.
We are not a passing-footballing team

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

In our circa 100 years of league football we've been a badly run club for the best part. Even though the current owners have 'steadied the ship' in recent seasons I doubt that we would be any better than mid-table in the Championship were it not for Warnock.

Walking into the ground at 5.25pm on Saturday the 'crackle' of atmospheric electricity that games like this generate hit me immediately. I've said it before, the place FEELS like a Premiership club, more so than Palace, Burnley, Huddersfield, Fulham, Watford, Brighton, Bournemouth, but sadly our playing strength isn't. As I said to the chap next to me during the game, what a shame that we weren't just 25% better and able to make a game of it...

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Agree with you completely in all of that apart from the bit about Warnock - I'm not totally convinced about him being solely responsible for us being in the Premier League rather than halfway up the Championship.