With the Tories in meltdown, Labour manages to make them look organised!!

If the breakaway brigade is to form about the centre then it's good news IMO, extreme left, extreme right, many voters left with very little to align with, I'd be quite happy to come in from the cold to a centre Labour brigade, that said and as suggested by the deputy, they were elected on a labour ticket and thus should call a by-election only then would we see any trend, I would guess that we will see this outfit going the same way as the SDP, maybe a few more will join them possibly even a few Tories, interesting week or so ahead, maybe!!!

A lot of nice folk have had enough of both the old politics .

As I see it they are brave to do what they have albeit very risky , as I should imagine it's being celebrated in both the bowels of the Tory party and within the Momentum movement , bigger long term agendas are at play .

It's a pity that the far left who are so dissatisfied with Labour just didn't man up, and form it's own party , rather than highjack a safe haven funded party . It will be of interest who funds it from now on as the ordinary members may not fancy a big hyke in fees, as private finances retreat.

Same goes for the right of the Tories, why don't they decamp to a right wing UKIP party and see how that works out , instead of causing mayhem from within .

That would leave the voters with a clear choice instead of a muddled two parties .

Two party politics has to be taken down for the sake of this countries future .

I would be interested in who is funding this bunch. They are quacking like a political party but they arent registered as one so we don't need to know apparently.

If everyone wants centre ground politics why did a record percentage vote for Corbyn's labour and May's conservatives at the last election?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

If everyone wants centre ground politics why did a record percentage vote for Corbyn's labour and May's conservatives at the last election?

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Who said everyone ?

The "uniparty" always help each other, and it's fairly obvious that this move is all about Brexit.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Who said everyone ?

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You, basically. In the OP you identify the 'extreme left', 'extreme right' and the many voters in between. The results of the last election don't support this.

From my experience the same people who were, 5 years ago, saying 'they are all the same' are now concerned that they aren't the same enough lol.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

You, basically. In the OP you identify the 'extreme left', 'extreme right' and the many voters in between. The results of the last election don't support this.

From my experience the same people who were, 5 years ago, saying 'they are all the same' are now concerned that they aren't the same enough lol.

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So i didn't say everyone then, glad We established that. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

So i didn't say everyone then, glad We established that. :thumbup:

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68.7% voted so a few didn't.
Were they disillusioned with same old perhaps ?

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Originally Posted by life on mars

68.7% voted so a few didn't.
Were they disillusioned with same old perhaps ?

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Less disillusioned than the previous 4 elections which had lower turnouts

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

So i didn't say everyone then, glad We established that. :thumbup:

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I never said you did lol

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Originally Posted by life on mars

68.7% voted so a few didn't.
Were they disillusioned with same old perhaps ?

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I used the word "many" quite deliberately, and it worked!!!
but to answer your question, it is my own opinion that many are disillusioned with the same old, I'm ex Red, but have basically given up with the two parties as un-electable, I would certainly be interested in a new party that is focussed towards the centre, UK politics I believe to be stale, it wasn't that long ago that Chuka was being touted for the Labour Job, if this new mob does set-up as a party, they cannot expect too much too soon IMO, and must be prepared for a long haul to awaken those who have just about said f@ck it to the two party system, the SDP failed despite having a few heavyweights when starting out, I wouldn't consider any of the gang of 7 to be a political heavyweight, but perhaps it could work in their favour as not being too heavily entrenched in the same old club. The Brucie bonus is that it might shift the continual Brexit Brexit narrative for a day or three.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Less disillusioned than the previous 4 elections which had lower turnouts

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That's true, and lower than Brexit, there's a message in there somewhere, it might be folk are fed up and wanted to punish anyone they could .

A centerist party is a good idea, the trouble is Blair and Osborne want to join forces and pull the strings. It will only work if a new party is formed at the grassroots level. The trouble with politics is not the system, it's the people running it.

"Obfuscate" is one of those words that I'd really struggle to define if asked to - probably the best thing I could do is direct the person asking to Jeremy Corbyn's attitude towards Brexit and Antisemitism in the party he leads. In fact, I'd widen that to say the Labour party as a whole when it comes to Antisemitism, because all I heard yesterday was people from Labour queuing up to say how horrible it is and yet if you asked the ordinary man and woman in the street what they have done to fight it in the past couple of years despite all of the bad publicity it has brought the party, I think the answers you would get would, almost entirely, range from "nothing" to "I don't know".

I respect the seven who have left the party, but I do think that they should stand for re-election in the way I believe Douglas Carswell did a few years ago when he left the Conservative party for UKIP - I thought they all sounded weak and like current Labour or Conservative MPs when they tried to explain why they would not be doing so.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

"Obfuscate" is one of those words that I'd really struggle to define if asked to - probably the best thing I could do is direct the person asking to Jeremy Corbyn's attitude towards Brexit and Antisemitism in the party he leads. In fact, I'd widen that to say the Labour party as a whole when it comes to Antisemitism, because all I heard yesterday was people from Labour queuing up to say how horrible it is and yet if you asked the ordinary man and woman in the street what they have done to fight it in the past couple of years despite all of the bad publicity it has brought the party, I think the answers you would get would, almost entirely, range from "nothing" to "I don't know".

I respect the seven who have left the party, but I do think that they should stand for re-election in the way I believe Douglas Carswell did a few years ago when he left the Conservative party for UKIP - I thought they all sounded weak and like current Labour or Conservative MPs when they tried to explain why they would not be doing so.

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Yes they should force by elections I'd love to see the public reaction to where they now sit ,as these are remainers and anti far left , it would provide a pro or anti Corbyn test and one that would send a message .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Yes they should force by elections I'd love to see the public reaction to where they now sit ,as these are remainers and anti far left , it would provide a pro or anti Corbyn test and one that would send a message .

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Interesting that it was only women who jumped ship from the Tories today. :sherlock:

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Interesting that it was only women who jumped ship from the Tories today. :sherlock:

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Perhaps the women have more balls than the men.

As I see it both parties have gutless left and right sections, who are not brave enough to declare an independence, they use the safety crouch of the Tory and Labour parties, and its finances and base , to disrupt from within to establish its power.

Gutless

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Perhaps the women have more balls than the men.

As I see it both parties have gutless left and right sections, who are not brave enough to declare an independence, they use the safety crouch of the Tory and Labour parties, and its finances and base , to disrupt from within to establish its power.

Gutless

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You realise this is 100% about brexit and has absolutely nothing to do with 'centre left' and 'centre right' politics uniting?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

You realise this is 100% about brexit and has absolutely nothing to do with 'centre left' and 'centre right' politics uniting?

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I'm not going to argue with your point of view , however my humble view is this is not 100% about Brexit .

You would have to assume all those Labour MP's who broke away were lying as they sited the many reasons and experiences for being unhappy with the deputy leader of the party also siting the fact the party has to change .
,
The original post was entitled ("with the Tories in meltdown, Labour manages to make them look organised!! )

Brexit is simply the convenient vehicle for this moment to happen ,which has flushed out bitterness ,hatred , bullying , worrying agendas , from both sides of the parties.

The part that has shocked me are the appalling mutterings via social media that we have read over the last few years

I suggest you reference point the speeches in more detail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I'm not going to argue with your point of view , however my humble view is this is not 100% about Brexit .

You would have to assume all those Labour MP's who broke away were lying as they sited the many reasons and experiences for being unhappy with the deputy leader of the party also siting the fact the party has to change .
,
The original post was entitled ("with the Tories in meltdown, Labour manages to make them look organised!! )

Brexit is simply the convenient vehicle for this moment to happen ,which has flushed out bitterness ,hatred , bullying , worrying agendas , from both sides of the parties.

The part that has shocked me are the appalling mutterings via social media that we have read over the last few years

I suggest you reference point the speeches in more detail.

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Was just watching a piece on the news about pip, how these labour MPs can stomach working with a bunch of people who helped push these disastrous changes through I really don't know.

I think soubry said yesterday that the government under Cameron and osborne was caring new conservatism and since then it has gone wrong. I just couldn't disagree more and neither could the tens of thousands of people who booed Osborne at the Olympics. TIG are rewriting history to make them all the good guys and it might actually work.

Oh it's a bit too true to even laugh at

https://youtu.be/-O2NsPioKBs

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Was just watching a piece on the news about pip, how these labour MPs can stomach working with a bunch of people who helped push these disastrous changes through I really don't know.

I think soubry said yesterday that the government under Cameron and osborne was caring new conservatism and since then it has gone wrong. I just couldn't disagree more and neither could the tens of thousands of people who booed Osborne at the Olympics. TIG are rewriting history to make them all the good guys and it might actually work.

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It's difficult to imagine how the new group can survive as a meaningful entity in the long term. The SDP had a lot more going for it than this group - and their member on last night's Question Time was embarrassingly inept. Couldn't even grasp the concept of standing for a by-election under his new banner. I am all for a centre party and it is unfortunate that the Lib Dems have almost disappeared without trace while the two main parties are tearing themselves apart - but this new entity seems a bit of a motley bunch so far.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's difficult to imagine how the new group can survive as a meaningful entity in the long term. The SDP had a lot more going for it than this group - and their member on last night's Question Time was embarrassingly inept. Couldn't even grasp the concept of standing for a by-election under his new banner. I am all for a centre party and it is unfortunate that the Lib Dems have almost disappeared without trace while the two main parties are tearing themselves apart - but this new entity seems a bit of a motley bunch so far.

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They are only in the limelight to botch Brexit, and then they will all sail off into the sunset and have annual reunions, where they can talk about the old days.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

They are only in the limelight to botch Brexit, and then they will all sail off into the sunset and have annual reunions, where they can talk about the old days.

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I know a few folk who impasionatly don't want Brexit, as they think it's the end of the world , they also now hate the 7 who dare to leave the Labour , party because of the parties lack of commitment to staying in Europe.

The same folk like JC views ??

Sums up the very blinkered one eyed political views, and lack of flexible thought .

A comedian who understands where UK politics is 2019.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ain-all-at-sea

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

A comedian who understands where UK politics is 2019.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ain-all-at-sea

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I appreciate the message behind the article and he is spot on with a lot he says about the political landscape. However it is a little bit like the claim that 'both sides lied' during the referendum, clearly one side was playing with the truth (and people's lives) more.

Which is more damaging? A party whose policies have helped lead to the deaths of many of the vulnerable people it is trusted to look after or a party whose leadership stands by and allows a small percentage of its members to say vile things on twitter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

A comedian who understands where UK politics is 2019.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ain-all-at-sea

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Yep he seems to have nailed it ,even today you see a shift ,which sniffs of self protection .
They could all be in for a shock if a second vote is forced, voters may see through the end game , of survival politics, or do as we tell you we know best even after a referendum.

What a mess.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Yep he seems to have nailed it ,even today you see a shift ,which sniffs of self protection .
They could all be in for a shock if a second vote is forced, voters may see through the end game , of survival politics, or do as we tell you we know best even after a referendum.

What a mess.

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At least if it happens this time people will be more well informed rather than being sucked in by some bullshit on the side of a red bus

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Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2

At least if it happens this time people will be more well informed rather than being sucked in by some bullshit on the side of a red bus

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Do you get that impression because I don't? People have had the opportunity to be better informed but I don't think many have taken it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Do you get that impression because I don't? People have had the opportunity to be better informed but I don't think many have taken it.

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I’ve managed to convince a few of my mates so hope springs eternal 😂

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I appreciate the message behind the article and he is spot on with a lot he says about the political landscape. However it is a little bit like the claim that 'both sides lied' during the referendum, clearly one side was playing with the truth (and people's lives) more.

Which is more damaging? A party whose policies have helped lead to the deaths of many of the vulnerable people it is trusted to look after or a party whose leadership stands by and allows a small percentage of its members to say vile things on twitter.

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I agree that in terms of culpability the Conservative party are the bigger offenders here (essentially, the in or out of Europe debate of the past forty years and more has been Conservative party driven).

However, the line about "if you don’t like Jeremy Corbyn, you’re a Tory." chimed with me in particular. The only time I've been impressed by Corbyn was during the 2017 election campaign. During the more "mundane" stuff which constitutes about 95% of political life, he comes over as mediocre to me and I reckon this is because, at heart is a campaigner more than a politician - he is temperamentally unsuited for leadership of a major political party and so I believe strongly that he is a poor leader of the Labour party.

Increasingly, it seems to me that views like this are not tolerated in the modern day Labour party and in the simplistic, political world of 2019, that is enough to make me a tory in some people's eyes. Believe me, that has never been the case and never will be, but I can definitely see why there are many who do not feel they have a political home these days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I agree that in terms of culpability the Conservative party are the bigger offenders here (essentially, the in or out of Europe debate of the past forty years and more has been Conservative party driven).

However, the line about "if you don’t like Jeremy Corbyn, you’re a Tory." chimed with me in particular. The only time I've been impressed by Corbyn was during the 2017 election campaign. During the more "mundane" stuff which constitutes about 95% of political life, he comes over as mediocre to me and I reckon this is because, at heart is a campaigner more than a politician - he is temperamentally unsuited for leadership of a major political party and so I believe strongly that he is a poor leader of the Labour party.

Increasingly, it seems to me that views like this are not tolerated in the modern day Labour party and in the simplistic, political world of 2019, that is enough to make me a tory in some people's eyes. Believe me, that has never been the case and never will be, but I can definitely see why there are many who do not feel they have a political home these days.

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Nice summary Paul , yes if you do speak out against the Corbyn / Williamson type project and wrongly badged politically . Its typical of todays bully keyboard tactics, nice isnt always associated to the new Labour project ,which is very sad indeed .

So much for inclusiveness.

Voter abstaining amongst moderate Labour voters is a big worry for me .

If only they gave the job to David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Do you get that impression because I don't? People have had the opportunity to be better informed but I don't think many have taken it.

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Think your right , you can only gauge whats around you ,of the folk I know nothing really has changed in their intentions.I think the leavers are very in trenched .

Can you blame them for being entrenched? The Brexit referendum ballot paper questions were unambiguous; no ifs, buts, maybes or any other caveats were included. The majority of participants placed their X next to: Leave the European Union.

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

Can you blame them for being entrenched? The Brexit referendum ballot paper questions were unambiguous; no ifs, buts, maybes or any other caveats were included. The majority of participants placed their X next to: Leave the European Union.

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But even now you could argue the unambiguous nature would see mass demonstrations, bigger outcry and effort to force our political elite to stay in I just dont see or hear it in any great volume, you'd have to accept that folk are now better informed after all this debate .

The big mystery for me, why wasn't the back stop a bigger campaign issue for remain 2 years ago it would have upped the project fear agenda .

Labour and remainers now chirp on and on about the Irish issues now , and JC appears all of a sudden very concerned ,didn't seem so then?

I believe if JC had strongly campaigned to remain , they would have won , and he may have been in a better place now ,and better organised than the OP's title .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by life on mars

But even now you could argue the unambiguous nature would see mass demonstrations, bigger outcry and effort to force our political elite to stay in I just dont see or hear it in any great volume, you'd have to accept that folk are now better informed after all this debate .

The big mystery for me, why wasn't the back stop a bigger campaign issue for remain 2 years ago it would have upped the project fear agenda .

Labour and remainers now chirp on and on about the Irish issues now , and JC appears all of a sudden very concerned ,didn't seem so then?

I believe if JC had strongly campaigned to remain , they would have won , and he may have been in a better place now ,and better organised than the OP's title .

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It was all odd at the time for me remainers seemed to want to have petty arguments than campaign to make people want to vote remain, we the people have been badly let down by the government

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Originally Posted by jamieccfc

It was all odd at the time for me remainers seemed to want to have petty arguments than campaign to make people want to vote remain, we the people have been badly let down by the government

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They probably thought that they would win the remain easily , therefore didn't apply the bigger risk issues.

I still dont get the silence at the time on the Irish back stop as it now seems to be the key issue to an agreement, I cant find any stance on coming out, but staying in the customs union ,all of which are now key components of labour's objections to the deal.

Its really weird the whole argument seems to have moved from free movement and what we pay into the EU, to the Customs Union ,and Irish Back stop.