Another 3 stabbings in London yesterday

2 fatal.
Surely time for a 10 yr stretch if found carrying a knife, and life with no chance of parole if murdering someone with a knife?
Jails too full, build more!

Anyone willing to kill or wound someone should be put away imo.

But the route cause of all this needs addressing too, sticking people in prison won't stop it happening.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Anyone willing to kill or wound someone should be put away imo.

But the route cause of all this needs addressing too, sticking people in prison won't stop it happening.

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Most of this is turf war drug supply related , legalise drugs and a large chunk of this violence would be stopped as these criminal gangs wouldn't be able to make money out of supplying drugs

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Most of this is turf war drug supply related , legalise drugs and a large chunk of this violence would be stopped as these criminal gangs wouldn't be able to make money out of supplying drugs

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I agree legalise drugs, better education and schemes for young at risk kids so they don't fall in to gangs and more police on the streets would drastically reduce this.

I've worked on local news in London for the past 5 years. In that time the main constant has been services shutting down, youth clubs closing, charities losing funding. A decade of austerity has consequences - the generation growing up now are the ones who were of the age to no longer have access to good youth clubs, charities, etc.
There's also the factor that every thing kids do goes on social media - meaning that what would have been a minor dispute in the past becomes a hyper-important moment where you have to act tough and save face to avoid being humiliated. That escalates into more violence. And starts rivalries between groups of youngsters.
While some is drug related, the vast majority isn't. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken - kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Kids carrying knives get in fights, as kids do but because they have knives a kid gets stabbed. Other kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Ad infinitum.
Sentences don't deter. It's an education issue and a diversion issue - youngsters need help to be funnelled into more positive activities they'll enjoy and that's where you can reach them - boxing clubs, youth centres, etc where role models can help them. But that takes cash.

Austerity kills

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Originally Posted by tomm

I've worked on local news in London for the past 5 years. In that time the main constant has been services shutting down, youth clubs closing, charities losing funding. A decade of austerity has consequences - the generation growing up now are the ones who were of the age to no longer have access to good youth clubs, charities, etc.
There's also the factor that every thing kids do goes on social media - meaning that what would have been a minor dispute in the past becomes a hyper-important moment where you have to act tough and save face to avoid being humiliated. That escalates into more violence. And starts rivalries between groups of youngsters.
While some is drug related, the vast majority isn't. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken - kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Kids carrying knives get in fights, as kids do but because they have knives a kid gets stabbed. Other kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Ad infinitum.
Sentences don't deter. It's an education issue and a diversion issue - youngsters need help to be funnelled into more positive activities they'll enjoy and that's where you can reach them - boxing clubs, youth centres, etc where role models can help them. But that takes cash.

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Operation trident specifically targets black on black gun violence , if it wasn't for the Tories cutting funding to the police then maybe a similar unit could be set up to combat black on black knife crime alongside education and activity as you suggest

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Austerity kills

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Got it in one.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Got it in one.

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Austerity is a factor, but but only a small factor.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Most of this is turf war drug supply related , legalise drugs and a large chunk of this violence would be stopped as these criminal gangs wouldn't be able to make money out of supplying drugs

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Tobacco is a legal drug and criminals make money from that.

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Originally Posted by tomm

I've worked on local news in London for the past 5 years. In that time the main constant has been services shutting down, youth clubs closing, charities losing funding. A decade of austerity has consequences - the generation growing up now are the ones who were of the age to no longer have access to good youth clubs, charities, etc.
There's also the factor that every thing kids do goes on social media - meaning that what would have been a minor dispute in the past becomes a hyper-important moment where you have to act tough and save face to avoid being humiliated. That escalates into more violence. And starts rivalries between groups of youngsters.
While some is drug related, the vast majority isn't. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken - kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Kids carrying knives get in fights, as kids do but because they have knives a kid gets stabbed. Other kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Ad infinitum.
Sentences don't deter. It's an education issue and a diversion issue - youngsters need help to be funnelled into more positive activities they'll enjoy and that's where you can reach them - boxing clubs, youth centres, etc where role models can help them. But that takes cash.

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All that is mainly nonsense. Most crims are born bad.

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

All that is mainly nonsense. Most crims are born bad.

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

All that is mainly nonsense. Most crims are born bad.

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Nobody is born bad. It’s a combination of what happens to you as a child, how well your parent/parents raise you, and the role models in your life.

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

All that is mainly nonsense. Most crims are born bad.

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What source of educated knowledge have you read to come up with that load of bollocks?

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Austerity is a factor, but but only a small factor.

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What other factors are there then?

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Originally Posted by tomm

I've worked on local news in London for the past 5 years. In that time the main constant has been services shutting down, youth clubs closing, charities losing funding. A decade of austerity has consequences - the generation growing up now are the ones who were of the age to no longer have access to good youth clubs, charities, etc.
There's also the factor that every thing kids do goes on social media - meaning that what would have been a minor dispute in the past becomes a hyper-important moment where you have to act tough and save face to avoid being humiliated. That escalates into more violence. And starts rivalries between groups of youngsters.
While some is drug related, the vast majority isn't. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken - kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Kids carrying knives get in fights, as kids do but because they have knives a kid gets stabbed. Other kids don't feel safe, so they carry knives. Ad infinitum.
Sentences don't deter. It's an education issue and a diversion issue - youngsters need help to be funnelled into more positive activities they'll enjoy and that's where you can reach them - boxing clubs, youth centres, etc where role models can help them. But that takes cash.

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That's a typical and very wrong analysis of the problems.
Just because a kid, or anyone else, thinks it's necessary to carry a knife or other weapon doesn't mean that we have to convince them differently. What we need to convince them of is that doing so will result in severe consequences.
We really can't get involved in their insane and stupid motivations just because they have decided on a course of conduct which is intolerable .
Sentences do deter, but they know there'll be no serious sentences. In a recent case a South London juvenile , ( you'll probably know the case if you're a local reporter in Croydon), went out to Stevenage to do a robbery ,in the course of which he stabbed a police officer and Police Dog Finn, who nearly died. It led to a change in the Law about stabbing police dogs, but the little shit got a supervision order or something for his crimes.

These stupid schemes involving youth clubs , mentors and airy fairy persuasions are exoensive and they've been going on for a long time, but they DO NOT work. How long before every other variety of criminal, such as bank robbers and serial killers are getting a sympathetic ear from the media about their problems and what led them to their crimes ? Shall we also let the Yorkshire Ripper out and send him on a course run by otherwise unemployable violent offenders who are now too old to attack people ?
What about Jihadists who've murdered people in shopping centres and tourist centres ? Shall we send them to an Islamist stamp collecting club or something ?

We hear this bollocks endlessly from the liberal media and chattering classes but in the mean time normal people have to go about their lawful business in areas like South London in fear of being randomly stabbed or caught up in some mindless post code attack.
.....and what happens ? More talk of insufficient youth clubs ..........!

Ronnie you've got it in one:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Nobody is born bad. It’s a combination of what happens to you as a child, how well your parent/parents raise you, and the role models in your life.

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How well your parents raise you......:thumbup:
A lot of these kids are from broken homes, no discipline and their not scared of teachers or police, no fathers around to guide.
No hope

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

That's a typical and very wrong analysis of the problems.
Just because a kid, or anyone else, thinks it's necessary to carry a knife or other weapon doesn't mean that we have to convince them differently. What we need to convince them of is that doing so will result in severe consequences.
We really can't get involved in their insane and stupid motivations just because they have decided on a course of conduct which is intolerable .
Sentences do deter, but they know there'll be no serious sentences. In a recent case a South London juvenile , ( you'll probably know the case if you're a local reporter in Croydon), went out to Stevenage to do a robbery ,in the course of which he stabbed a police officer and Police Dog Finn, who nearly died. It led to a change in the Law about stabbing police dogs, but the little shit got a supervision order or something for his crimes.

These stupid schemes involving youth clubs , mentors and airy fairy persuasions are exoensive and they've been going on for a long time, but they DO NOT work. How long before every other variety of criminal, such as bank robbers and serial killers are getting a sympathetic ear from the media about their problems and what led them to their crimes ? Shall we also let the Yorkshire Ripper out and send him on a course run by otherwise unemployable violent offenders who are now too old to attack people ?
What about Jihadists who've murdered people in shopping centres and tourist centres ? Shall we send them to an Islamist stamp collecting club or something ?

We hear this bollocks endlessly from the liberal media and chattering classes but in the mean time normal people have to go about their lawful business in areas like South London in fear of being randomly stabbed or caught up in some mindless post code attack.
.....and what happens ? More talk of insufficient youth clubs ..........!

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I dont get the youth clubs shutting down stuff, they were always terrible when I was young. When working as a youth worker in Cardiff they were also sh*t and depressing most kids rather stay at home and play x box and the new one in butetown was practically empty.
Things might have changed in the last 10/15 yrs but I doubt it....

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Nobody is born bad. It’s a combination of what happens to you as a child, how well your parent/parents raise you, and the role models in your life.

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If you believe that no child is born bad then I suppose you would quite happily adopt from birth the offspring of two cannibalistic child killers. To make this simple just imagine that the child would never know his background. Would you bring up this child with your other children without worries?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

What source of educated knowledge have you read to come up with that load of bollocks?

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Lots of life experience and careful observation of my fellow citizens.

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

If you believe that no child is born bad then I suppose you would quite happily adopt from birth the offspring of two cannibalistic child killers. To make this simple just imagine that the child would never know his background. Would you bring up this child with your other children without worries?

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Yes

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

If you believe that no child is born bad then I suppose you would quite happily adopt from birth the offspring of two cannibalistic child killers. To make this simple just imagine that the child would never know his background. Would you bring up this child with your other children without worries?

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I assume that each of the cannibalistic child killers had two cannibalistic child killers as parents, who each had two cannibalistic child killers, and they....so on?

Otherwise you don't really have much of a point.

If it was as simple as criminals are criminals because their parents were criminals, then back in the middle ages those families would probably have been drowned and crime would have died out with them.

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Originally Posted by lardy

I assume that each of the cannibalistic child killers had two cannibalistic child killers as parents, who each had two cannibalistic child killers, and they....so on?

Otherwise you don't really have much of a point.

If it was as simple as criminals are criminals because their parents were criminals, then back in the middle ages those families would probably have been drowned and crime would have died out with them.

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Lardy you've got it my old son.The Middle ages is where some of these posters come from.I remember Willie Whitelaw back in the early 80's and his short, sharp, shock treatment.That failed big time and so did everything else tried since or before that involved longer gaol sentences.

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

If you believe that no child is born bad then I suppose you would quite happily adopt from birth the offspring of two cannibalistic child killers. To make this simple just imagine that the child would never know his background. Would you bring up this child with your other children without worries?

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If there was any remote sense to this ignorant statement then Australia would never have existed.:biggrin:

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Originally Posted by David Vincent

Tobacco is a legal drug and criminals make money from that.

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Not compared to the cocaine trade where youngsters can make big money , fast

With the use of violence

Maybe if the police were allowed to police rather than policing those champagne socialist nutters then these may be deterred

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Originally Posted by sneggyblubird

Lardy you've got it my old son.The Middle ages is where some of these posters come from.I remember Willie Whitelaw back in the early 80's and his short, sharp, shock treatment.That failed big time and so did everything else tried since or before that involved longer gaol sentences.

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Bingo

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Anyone willing to kill or wound someone should be put away imo.

But the route cause of all this needs addressing too, sticking people in prison won't stop it happening.

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I don’t think we’ll ever get to the root cause of it. If anything I think it will just keep getting worse.

How many more aren’t reported?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Most of this is turf war drug supply related , legalise drugs and a large chunk of this violence would be stopped as these criminal gangs wouldn't be able to make money out of supplying drugs

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They’d find something else to make money from and need to kill people.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

They’d find something else to make money from and need to kill people.

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Well then we go after that trade

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well then we go after that trade

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Oh. Simple then!!

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Originally Posted by lardy

I assume that each of the cannibalistic child killers had two cannibalistic child killers as parents, who each had two cannibalistic child killers, and they....so on?

Otherwise you don't really have much of a point.

If it was as simple as criminals are criminals because their parents were criminals, then back in the middle ages those families would probably have been drowned and crime would have died out with them.

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A bit like Sawney Bean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawney_Bean

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Originally Posted by rudy gestede

What other factors are there then?

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Do you really believe that austerity is the lone reason for this knife culture?
For a start, being poor in the Uk, is a million miles from being poor in places like Russia.
Poor upbringing, lack of respect for others, lack of respect for life itself, peer pressure, the knowledge that you won’t get a long stretch in clink, weak minded, following like sheep, etc etc, are all contributing factors.

Instead of spending millions on ‘security ‘ for Royal weddings and more millions on safari in South Africa or being patron of all these charities put some of this money back into the services that make a difference to people’s lives

Priorities are all wrong imo

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

That's a typical and very wrong analysis of the problems.
Just because a kid, or anyone else, thinks it's necessary to carry a knife or other weapon doesn't mean that we have to convince them differently. What we need to convince them of is that doing so will result in severe consequences.
We really can't get involved in their insane and stupid motivations just because they have decided on a course of conduct which is intolerable .
Sentences do deter, but they know there'll be no serious sentences. In a recent case a South London juvenile , ( you'll probably know the case if you're a local reporter in Croydon), went out to Stevenage to do a robbery ,in the course of which he stabbed a police officer and Police Dog Finn, who nearly died. It led to a change in the Law about stabbing police dogs, but the little shit got a supervision order or something for his crimes.

These stupid schemes involving youth clubs , mentors and airy fairy persuasions are exoensive and they've been going on for a long time, but they DO NOT work. How long before every other variety of criminal, such as bank robbers and serial killers are getting a sympathetic ear from the media about their problems and what led them to their crimes ? Shall we also let the Yorkshire Ripper out and send him on a course run by otherwise unemployable violent offenders who are now too old to attack people ?
What about Jihadists who've murdered people in shopping centres and tourist centres ? Shall we send them to an Islamist stamp collecting club or something ?

We hear this bollocks endlessly from the liberal media and chattering classes but in the mean time normal people have to go about their lawful business in areas like South London in fear of being randomly stabbed or caught up in some mindless post code attack.
.....and what happens ? More talk of insufficient youth clubs ..........!

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The 16 year old in question was given an 8 month custodial sentance, 4 months in custody and 4 months supervised in the community and a 2 year behaviour order in the community with conditions. Whether you agree with that or not is a matter for debate, but get your facts right, not just to suit your argument.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Austerity kills

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Labour, under Brown and Blair bankrupt the country, which created the need for austerity.

Blame them!!!

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Originally Posted by JDerrida

Labour, under Brown and Blair bankrupt the country, which created the need for austerity.

Blame them!!!

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Do you honestly believe that old pony,the blame ls across the spectrum of financial institutions.And not one country would have over come it.

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Originally Posted by JDerrida

Labour, under Brown and Blair bankrupt the country, which created the need for austerity.

Blame them!!!

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I thought it was a global problem, not just the UK? The Tories though have milked it and really turned the screw, unfortunately affecting the less fortunate in society.

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Originally Posted by splott parker

I thought it was a global problem, not just the UK? The Tories though have milked it and really turned the screw, unfortunately affecting the less fortunate in society.

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Any opportunity will do for the Tories to make the poor, poorer. It's not difficult, is it-Take away services from those who need them the most then we're going to see more problems socially. The Tories don't care about poor kids killing eachover, infact, i'd say that the problem with violent crime happening in the poorest boroughs of London and wider afield isn't really being dealt with. Could you imagine if it was white middle class kids stabbing eachover? Seems like some people matter more than others. I don't use social media, but i've seen enough of it and it seems that whenever there's a mass murder in a place like London or Paris then it's all 'Pray for Paris' etc, Never Baghdad or Allepo, Kabul etc