Football - is the bubble about to burst ?

We all know that clubs post their attendance figures based on ticket sales - City's 21,273 was more likely 15,000 actual attendees - but with that in mind consider how many people actually attended these Championship games this midweek

Hull 10272
QPR 11669
Reading 10088
Blackburn 12343
Millwall 11209
Luton 10008
Fulham 17626 [ inc. 2500 Swansea].

Fulham aside, probably less than 8000 in most of those games. True it was an awful night weatherwise, but folk are getting out of the habit of actually getting out of their chair and going to watch their teams. In the PL it was accepted that games would practically sell out each week but when fans in either division stop buying a ST and just 'cherry pick' the games, I think it will be the start of the decline in attendances for the 1st time in 20 yrs.

TV saturation is bound to be the main contributory factor, but also I believe the football being played is just not exciting enough. The PL especially, hyped up week in week out, but essentially ends up attack v defence for 90 mins. Next season will be interesting. I think a lot of PL ST holders who previously were reluctant to give up there ST in case they couldn't get to the games may well just do that, and pretty much the same with the majority of Championship clubs..

Take me back to ninian park

Would be interesting what average % play for and against for the four main divisions.

In a word, no. The football bubble is not about to burst.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

In a word, no. The football bubble is not about to burst.

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Of course it is you clown

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

We all know that clubs post their attendance figures based on ticket sales - City's 21,273 was more likely 15,000 actual attendees - but with that in mind consider how many people actually attended these Championship games this midweek

Hull 10272
QPR 11669
Reading 10088
Blackburn 12343
Millwall 11209
Luton 10008
Fulham 17626 [ inc. 2500 Swansea].

Fulham aside, probably less than 8000 in most of those games. True it was an awful night weatherwise, but folk are getting out of the habit of actually getting out of their chair and going to watch their teams. In the PL it was accepted that games would practically sell out each week but when fans in either division stop buying a ST and just 'cherry pick' the games, I think it will be the start of the decline in attendances for the 1st time in 20 yrs.

TV saturation is bound to be the main contributory factor, but also I believe the football being played is just not exciting enough. The PL especially, hyped up week in week out, but essentially ends up attack v defence for 90 mins. Next season will be interesting. I think a lot of PL ST holders who previously were reluctant to give up there ST in case they couldn't get to the games may well just do that, and pretty much the same with the majority of Championship clubs..

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Historically, some of the attendances you quoted are average, or indeed, slightly above their average for those clubs concerned .

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

In a word, no. The football bubble is not about to burst.

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Financially maybe not. Football as TV 'entertainment for the masses - possibly not, but as a sport watched by paying supporters of the club, I think yes. Sky et al will always get large audiences for Liverpool v Man City, but viewers will turn off form watch other games in half empty, echoing stadia..

We are going to return to the eighties

There will be a european super league for united , liverpool etc and good fecking riddance to them

And a reorganisation of football in this country below that

It may be two or three years , it may be ten years but it's going to happen

That's capitalism for you , always needs more money to feed its fire

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Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five

Historically, some of the attendances you quoted are average, or indeed, slightly above their average for those clubs concerned .

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They may well be, but I'm suggesting it's the beginning of a trend..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Financially maybe not. Football as TV 'entertainment for the masses - possibly not, but as a sport watched by paying supporters of the club, I think yes. Sky et al will always get large audiences for Liverpool v Man City, but viewers will turn off form watch other games in half empty, echoing stadia..

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Indeed

Look at the empty seats at man city , arsenal etc for top flight games

The premier league clubs were too greedy

Apart from liverpool and united , who have more hangers on than a cows arse , it's a busted flush

West ham , 60000 capacity stadium ? How many seasons do they think the cockney oiks will be filling that for ?

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

They may well be, but I'm suggesting it's the beginning of a trend..

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Then maybe it would have been better for you to identify those clubs with significant drops in attendance, to add weight to your theory of a trend..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Financially maybe not. Football as TV 'entertainment for the masses - possibly not, but as a sport watched by paying supporters of the club, I think yes. Sky et al will always get large audiences for Liverpool v Man City, but viewers will turn off form watch other games in half empty, echoing stadia..

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City's attendances have levelled out, mainly because the team is pretty boring to watch and the realities of what success at this level actually brings have become apparent. The same is true at many other clubs. It's no big deal. It's the same as it ever was.

Predictions that the football 'bubble' is about to burst are made numerous times every season and that's been the case for decades.

The amount of times this has been said over the last 15 or so years is eye roll worthy. There is no "bubble" to burst.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense, in fact you argued the lower attendances could be down to the weather. Even then our attendances aren't that shocking, we average that when we aren't in the PL or in a promotion race, I imagine it's the same up and down the league.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Take me back to ninian park

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Dear God no! It was well past it’s sell by date, I dread to think what it would look like now if we hadn’t have moved and indeed where we’d be in the football pyramid. Pissing against walls in an open air toilet in the pouring rain is something I shall never miss. I had nearly 50 years turning up there, loved the early 60s when it was all a new adventure to me, enjoyed the European nights and enjoyed (strange to say ‘enjoyed’) the promotion misses of the late 60s/early 70s. After that it was the odd game that enthralled in many years of shite in a crumbling ground. Thank goodness for the move into the 21st century.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

We all know that clubs post their attendance figures based on ticket sales - City's 21,273 was more likely 15,000 actual attendees - but with that in mind consider how many people actually attended these Championship games this midweek

Hull 10272
QPR 11669
Reading 10088
Blackburn 12343
Millwall 11209
Luton 10008
Fulham 17626 [ inc. 2500 Swansea].

Fulham aside, probably less than 8000 in most of those games. True it was an awful night weatherwise, but folk are getting out of the habit of actually getting out of their chair and going to watch their teams. In the PL it was accepted that games would practically sell out each week but when fans in either division stop buying a ST and just 'cherry pick' the games, I think it will be the start of the decline in attendances for the 1st time in 20 yrs.

TV saturation is bound to be the main contributory factor, but also I believe the football being played is just not exciting enough. The PL especially, hyped up week in week out, but essentially ends up attack v defence for 90 mins. Next season will be interesting. I think a lot of PL ST holders who previously were reluctant to give up there ST in case they couldn't get to the games may well just do that, and pretty much the same with the majority of Championship clubs..

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TV Saturation has been here for more than a generation. Why is it suddenly an issue? Because you have pre-supposed that some low crowds were even lower just because there is a huge discrepancy between bums on seats and attendance figures at Cardiff?

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

They may well be, but I'm suggesting it's the beginning of a trend..

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You highlighted Fulham's attendance in midweek (it was actually 1,500 Jacks, not 2,500).

Twenty years ago, in 2000/01, Fulham were promoted to the Premier League after finishing top of the Championship with 101 points.

Their average league attendance in 2000/01 was 14,803.

Their average league attendance this season is 18,181.

The highest average attendance in the Championship in 2000/01 was 21,283 (Birmingham City). This season, nine Championship clubs have a higher average than that.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Take me back to ninian park

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It was an absolute fecking shithole. We are well rid of it.

The Bundesliga has the best product from the fans perspective. High quality football played in a good atmosphere at a reasonable price.

Fulham, Chelsea and QPR are all in the same borough, with a population of 185,400, (That's just 40,000 more than Bridgend Borough) they all do pretty well with their crowds. Of course, like City, they all rely on fans from outside the borough to push the numbers up.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The Bundesliga has the best product from the fans perspective. High quality football played in a good atmosphere at a reasonable price.

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and there lies the answer.
Football has become overpriced for what's on offer.

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

Fulham, Chelsea and QPR are all in the same borough, with a population of 185,400, (That's just 40,000 more than Bridgend Borough) they all do pretty well with their crowds. Of course, like City, they all rely on fans from outside the borough to push the numbers up.

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Hardly anyone from the QPR Fulham, Brentford, Chelsea i.e. West London, supports Chelsea do they? I thought the vast majority of their fans were plastics from outside that West of London Borough. Wasn't it 4-4-2 magazine or maybe it was When Saturday Comes that did an article in the 90s about how Brentford have more season ticket holders than Chelsea that lived in west London?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The Bundesliga has the best product from the fans perspective. High quality football played in a good atmosphere at a reasonable price.

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And the same team winning the league for the last 7 seasons.

Mine has!!!, keep thinking I'll do a few games as each season approaches, but with almost every game now available on the fire stick any enthusiasm to venture out into the rain and cold quickly dissipates, as just a TV spectator from the armchair, the football on offer is appalling. I was watching some personal videos I took when we were in the Wembley era last night, they did bring back some fabulous memories, I have lots of videos from dungeon grounds around this period and I look back at them very fondly, desperately want the club to do well and especially respect the fans who continue to go up and down the country following the team and whilst I've had a few breaks in actively following the club, I do think it's now over for me.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Mine has!!!, keep thinking I'll do a few games as each season approaches, but with almost every game now available on the fire stick any enthusiasm to venture out into the rain and cold quickly dissipates, as just a TV spectator from the armchair, the football on offer is appalling. I was watching some personal videos I took when we were in the Wembley era last night, they did bring back some fabulous memories, I have lots of videos from dungeon grounds around this period and I look back at them very fondly, desperately want the club to do well and especially respect the fans who continue to go up and down the country following the team and whilst I've had a few breaks in actively following the club, I do think it's now over for me.

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Leave it to us youngsters mate

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You highlighted Fulham's attendance in midweek (it was actually 1,500 Jacks, not 2,500).

Twenty years ago, in 2000/01, Fulham were promoted to the Premier League after finishing top of the Championship with 101 points.

Their average league attendance in 2000/01 was 14,803.

Their average league attendance this season is 18,181.

The highest average attendance in the Championship in 2000/01 was 21,283 (Birmingham City). This season, nine Championship clubs have a higher average than that.

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I

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You highlighted Fulham's attendance in midweek (it was actually 1,500 Jacks, not 2,500).

Twenty years ago, in 2000/01, Fulham were promoted to the Premier League after finishing top of the Championship with 101 points.

Their average league attendance in 2000/01 was 14,803.

Their average league attendance this season is 18,181.

The highest average attendance in the Championship in 2000/01 was 21,283 (Birmingham City). This season, nine Championship clubs have a higher average than that.

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What part of " I think it will be the start of the decline in attendances for the 1st time in 20 yrs." Didn't you understand ? Secondly the point I made - and did twice - was that people aren't turning up for games more and more, in both the Championship and also now in the PL. When you see large gaps in the stands in the PL games which you haven't seen before, it shows a lot of people are beginning to get 'football fatigue "

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

And the same team winning the league for the last 7 seasons.

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They've had some of the best coaches who have taken the game forward and raised the standard of those below them, and only 6 points separate the top 5 teams. Bayern and Leipzig were a different class compared to Chelsea and Spurs in the Champions League, and Klopp & Pep are also students of the high press German game.

I was looking at some mid 1980s attendances a few days ago. We were getting 3000-4000 in the second tier, mind you we were rubbish, had no money, and a crap ground. Other 'big' teams like Newcastle were getting sub 10000 crowds too. And that was in the days when there was SKy/BT live games. I think it could be true that the bubble is about to burst. Man City were at home the other day and there were loads of empty seats.

As much as I love “the city” the modern day family life and kids activities just make it very difficult at times to attend. Football back in the day was part of the local culture and the only thing on a Saturday the but nowadays it is fading due to everything else that’s out there.
The bubble will burst in the next five years or so and to be honest it should. Mediocre athletes should not be paid the ridiculous wealth that they earn.
More affordable games (certainly premiership wise) might make the game more attractive but we cannot blame people in having other interests.

At the top level far from it
With the likes of Amazon throwing billions on the table your armchair fan is here for years to come.
On a personal level I still love going to the pub and the game whatever the level and perversely the shitter we are and the more glory hunters that feck off the better the experience for me.
Up the city.

So this "bubble" is going to burst because a few older fans aren't going down to the City anymore, despite attendances across this league have remained similar (for years) and even grown when you compare it to 20 years ago.

You have it spot on fellas, best let Sky, BT and Amazon know they should stop pumping so much money in

I'm sure people who go on about how good football was 'back in their day' are the exact same people who moan their Dad's didn't like the music they were into. There is no 'bubble'. End of. This boring conversation will continue to raise its head every now and then, but if anything, more clubs are being competitive at the top than at any time in the last 20 years.

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Originally Posted by Llandaff Blue

So this "bubble" is going to burst because a few older fans aren't going down to the City anymore, despite attendances across this league have remained similar (for years) and even grown when you compare it to 20 years ago.

You have it spot on fellas, best let Sky, BT and Amazon know they should stop pumping so much money in

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Completely mis-read or mis-understood my post. Attendances are recorded by the no. of tickets sold. Based on those figures most of the clubs who were in the Championship this season and last have seen a slight fall. Nothing significant but what is significant is the numbers actually going to games. When the attraction of a ST becomes less, people will cherry pick - def. not on a rainy midweek when they're on the TV, and probably not on many other occasions. Same will happen in PL - you can see the gaps for the 1st time. Sky and the rest earn their income via viewing revenues - they'll get the same whether the ground is full or empty. Next season will be a good indication, both in the PL and the Championship especially..

Amazon , sky and the other tossers dont care about the fans

The clubs could charge next to nothing in the premier league and still do it


Football has become an americanised bloody product , together with hot dogs and offensive formations etc

Modern football is complete bollocks and in twenty years crowds will be very different

The demographic is rapidly changing , football teams are losing their traditional supporter base and becoming middle class playthings

That's not a problem for liverpool or man united as there are loads of lemmings lining up

But for everyone else outside the top four or five clubs it's very worrying indeed

David Conn wrote the book searching for the soul of football many years and predicted one day it would all come crashing down

In effect it has already , with the internet and sky etc many people now follow their club , whom previously they would home and away , from their armchair

And who can bloody blame them with the cost of modern football being gobbled up in players wages

I note that this week EFL clubs met to discuss a) a salary cap (£24 -£30 million proposed) and b) a reduced first team squad size

It’s all talk at the moment nothing definitive but for me the fact that this was even being discussed its an indication the clubs are getting worried about the cost of chasing the premiership dream

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

I note that this week EFL clubs met to discuss a) a salary cap (£24 -£30 million proposed) and b) a reduced first team squad size

It’s all talk at the moment nothing definitive but for me the fact that this was even being discussed its an indication the clubs are getting worried about the cost of chasing the premiership dream

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Look how much debt we got ourselves into trying to get into the premier league under jones

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Look how much debt we got ourselves into trying to get into the premier league under jones

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I think the bubble won’t burst because there’s too much will for it not to but I definitely think it will change. It has to because the associated costs are unsustainable as things stand

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

I think the bubble won’t burst because there’s too much will for it not to but I definitely think it will change. It has to because the associated costs are unsustainable as things stand

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Go down the city now and you just dont see big groups of teenage lads like you used to at ninian park

It was a rites of passage , for me anyway , to go into the family enclosure as a kid , then move onto the bob bank with my mates

Now it's all changed and for the worst

It's expensive for a young lad to decide on match day I fancy a trip down the city

For our fans from the valleys it's even more of a pain in the arse

Go up within the next few years and that will be another generation of kids frozen out

No wonder they watch it on the internet

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Amazon , sky and the other tossers dont care about the fans

The clubs could charge next to nothing in the premier league and still do it


Football has become an americanised bloody product , together with hot dogs and offensive formations etc

Modern football is complete bollocks and in twenty years crowds will be very different

The demographic is rapidly changing , football teams are losing their traditional supporter base and becoming middle class playthings

That's not a problem for liverpool or man united as there are loads of lemmings lining up

But for everyone else outside the top four or five clubs it's very worrying indeed

David Conn wrote the book searching for the soul of football many years and predicted one day it would all come crashing down

In effect it has already , with the internet and sky etc many people now follow their club , whom previously they would home and away , from their armchair

And who can bloody blame them with the cost of modern football being gobbled up in players wages

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I'd generally agree with most of that. The other factor to consider is the game itself is becoming sanitized - VAR, little or no body contact, and with players getting fitter, or at least increasing work rate, it's frequently a boring, non-exciting stalemate between attack and defence..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I'd generally agree with most of that. The other factor to consider is the game itself is becoming sanitized - VAR, little or no body contact, and with players getting fitter, or at least increasing work rate, it's frequently a boring, non-exciting stalemate between attack and defence..

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The diving in the game is worse than ever , VAR wont be doing anything about that