No confidence vote, against DRAKEFORD, from Welsh Tourist Body !!

What’s the point of opening up hotels and campsites, if there’s nothing for visitors to do !!!!

https://apple.news/Ah_8EYmjkRWu6xJfZRBII5w

Yes be careful, but people’s futures are on the line here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

What’s the point of opening up hotels and campsites, if there’s nothing for visitors to do !!!!

https://apple.news/Ah_8EYmjkRWu6xJfZRBII5w

Yes be careful, but people’s futures are on the line here

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Drakeford gets an easy ride. No criticism, no awkward questions, BBC and local media all seem happy to accept his every 'move'. As I said previously I don't think he's the slightest bit bothered about anything regarding economy, jobs, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Drakeford gets an easy ride. No criticism, no awkward questions, BBC and local media all seem happy to accept his every 'move'. As I said previously I don't think he's the slightest bit bothered about anything regarding economy, jobs, etc.

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All he is interested in is making a name for himself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Drakeford gets an easy ride. No criticism, no awkward questions, BBC and local media all seem happy to accept his every 'move'. As I said previously I don't think he's the slightest bit bothered about anything regarding economy, jobs, etc.

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He's definitely putting health before wealth.

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

He's definitely putting health before wealth.

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He cant make a decision. His main aim is just to make sure that any blame for anything that is done is deflected away from himself and his party. If he doesn't make a decision he cant be blamed for it if it goes wrong. Meanwhile the Welsh economy ‘burns’.

He is definitely putting politics before people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

He's definitely putting health before wealth.

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Maybe. You can have lockdown/restrictions til eternity with just 1 new case per month, but there comes a time when the risks have to be viewed in the light of every other aspect of our lives..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Drakeford gets an easy ride. No criticism, no awkward questions, BBC and local media all seem happy to accept his every 'move'. As I said previously I don't think he's the slightest bit bothered about anything regarding economy, jobs, etc.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

He's definitely putting health before wealth.

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I know what you’re saying with “health before wealth”, but he may be also not taking into account what he is doing to people mentally.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but these times COULD take people to the edge, even suicide !!!!

As I say, hopefully not, but these people down the bay, might not have the business acumen, to make these decisions. They’re pen pushers, nothing more

OEN UP WALES NOW !!!!!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

He is definitely putting politics before people.

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He difinitely is presiding over a period where the hospitals coped, and where his decisions have resulted in the lowest R rates in the country. He definitely doesn't seem to be going against scientific advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

He difinitely is presiding over a period where the hospitals coped, and where his decisions have resulted in the lowest R rates in the country. He definitely doesn't seem to be going against scientific advice.

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He’s playing with 11 men behind the ball, he’s got to attack some time.

There’s being careful and there’s being “Please god, don’t let me make a mistake”

Wales’s businesses are dying

He cant win

It wasnt that long ago people owning tourist attractions were telling people to stay away ! Dont bring the virus here !

Now everyone wants everything opened up

And this is obviously a political post as we have the same old crew having a dig

Hes got the charisma of a wet fish but hes doing the right thing

The effects of this virus on peoples mental health is going to be with us for a long time but it's either lots of people going to their doctors for anti depressants or people dying with a second wave of the virus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dml1954

All he is interested in is making a name for himself.

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Complete load of arse

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

He difinitely is presiding over a period where the hospitals coped, and where his decisions have resulted in the lowest R rates in the country. He definitely doesn't seem to be going against scientific advice.

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I don't know where you get the idea that we have the lowest R rate. The latest R value from the Technical Advice Cell, they supply the R data to the Senedd, was 0.9 average. That data is before the three food processing outbreaks, so I bet the next data will higher

As mentioned elsewhere as total deaths and infection rates come down come down the R rate becomes less and less useful as a measure, although never completely so. The figures just need to be closely monitored and action taken when a particular area seems to increase, such as the meat plants in Anglesey. But there, where action should have been taken to control spread he has sat on his hands and done nothing!
Hospitals coped because of the lockdown enforced nationwide not be any particular thing that Mr Drakeford did. But they nearly ran out of PPE and nearly failed to appreciate the spread because of things he and his Minister said they had done or were going to do, and didn't!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I don't know where you get the idea that we have the lowest R rate. The latest R value from the Technical Advice Cell, they supply the R data to the Senedd, was 0.9 average. That data is before the three food processing outbreaks, so I bet the next data will higher

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Hence the need to be cautious.

Wales has a poorer population than England, and it has an older population, with more health complications. Far less of the elderly population live in leafy suburbs in Wales than in england, which are practically social isolation anyway. An independant study stated that something like out o the 10 most vulnerable towns for an outbreak were in Wales.

We should be being more cautious than England, if we were just following their lead then what would the point of having the assembly be?
England are putting money over lives, and given the above factors it would be even worse for us if we were to follow them.

Some people seem to be jumping on any opportunity to criticise Drakeford because of the party he represents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

As mentioned elsewhere as total deaths and infection rates come down come down the R rate becomes less and less useful as a measure, although never completely so. The figures just need to be closely monitored and action taken when a particular area seems to increase, such as the meat plants in Anglesey. But there, where action should have been taken to control spread he has sat on his hands and done nothing!
Hospitals coped because of the lockdown enforced nationwide not be any particular thing that Mr Drakeford did. But they nearly ran out of PPE and nearly failed to appreciate the spread because of things he and his Minister said they had done or were going to do, and didn't!

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That's the lockdown enforced by boris and his chummy mates that was way too late and led to us having the highest rate in europe ?

In england not only did they nearly run out of ppe , they actually did ! All down to decisions made by boris

Thank god we didnt have him in charge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Hence the need to be cautious.

Wales has a poorer population than England, and it has an older population, with more health complications. Far less of the elderly population live in leafy suburbs in Wales than in england, which are practically social isolation anyway. An independant study stated that something like out o the 10 most vulnerable towns for an outbreak were in Wales.

We should be being more cautious than England, if we were just following their lead then what would the point of having the assembly be?
England are putting money over lives, and given the above factors it would be even worse for us if we were to follow them.

Some people seem to be jumping on any opportunity to criticise Drakeford because of the party he represents

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My criticisms of him are nothing to do with his party, but basically the man. As sludge said he is a "wet fish" and I think that's putting it kindly. I commented on his lack of gravitas and charisma long ago in other threads. He is as far as appearing as a leader as he could possibly get, and the way he says things and his terminology demonstrates he his basic parochial tendencies. I think we'd have been far better off if Carwyn Jones were still first minister.

But with regard to his party he is not exactly mainstream in that either is he? He was one of the first to endorse JC when he stood for the leadership, and we know how well that went, he is a member of Unite and Unison, both hard left unions, and a member of momentum, which needs no introduction. He is also reputedly (allegedly) a very nasty person. I'm quite sure that if you spoke to a lot of Labour voting welshmen and women privately they would tell you they wish he wasn't there. I do ask my firneds and that is the overwhelming reponse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I don't know where you get the idea that we have the lowest R rate. The latest R value from the Technical Advice Cell, they supply the R data to the Senedd, was 0.9 average. That data is before the three food processing outbreaks, so I bet the next data will higher

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All the more reason for Drakeford to remain cautious unlike Free For All Johnson. A few more weeks staying like we are could turn out to be vital, after all this time I’d be devastated if I caught it now because a politician jumped the gun through pressure, it’d be akin to being shot at 5 to 11 on Armistice Day.

Only a couple of months ago lots of people were rounding on Organ Morgan, myself included, over his attitude that the economy mattered, lives didn't. Boris Johnso came under huge fire for his "loved ones are going to die" speech, before deciding on a lockdown.

It's as if we're all a bit bored of not being able to do what we used to do, so everything needs opening up.

We're back at the wealth or health question. England has chosen to go for wealth. The government has decided to ignore scientific advice in part because some people have decided they want to go to pubs, go to the beach etc. Johnson has gone for the popular opinion, which as we all know isn't always the right one.

Drakeford's more cautious approach is one I applaud in part, but there are contradictions in what we can and cannot do. It hasn't been well thought out.

My feeling is now that we should perhaps open up everything. Sod it. I won't be going anywhere. I'll be continuing to keep distancing and protecting me and my family. Those who think they won't be affected can all meet up and form the second wave, like some giant Darwin award.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Only a couple of months ago lots of people were rounding on Organ Morgan, myself included, over his attitude that the economy mattered, lives didn't. Boris Johnso came under huge fire for his "loved ones are going to die" speech, before deciding on a lockdown.

It's as if we're all a bit bored of not being able to do what we used to do, so everything needs opening up.

We're back at the wealth or health question. England has chosen to go for wealth. The government has decided to ignore scientific advice in part because some people have decided they want to go to pubs, go to the beach etc. Johnson has gone for the popular opinion, which as we all know isn't always the right one.

Drakeford's more cautious approach is one I applaud in part, but there are contradictions in what we can and cannot do. It hasn't been well thought out.

My feeling is now that we should perhaps open up everything. Sod it. I won't be going anywhere. I'll be continuing to keep distancing and protecting me and my family. Those who think they won't be affected can all meet up and form the second wave, like some giant Darwin award.

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with regard to your last para there is actually a kernel of sense in that. If things are opened up, those the feel the need can use the facilities, and those like yourself, who don't want to will still be free to make that choice.
So long as the things about the infection that matter are monitored and test and trace is rigorously applied then it should be controllable. It will never be 100% safe and no one can expect that, but if it's manageable then we need to live our lives.

The problem comes when people are told they can go back to work and risk infection and soon will have no choice because of the end of furlough, and at the same time are being told that having put themselves at risk in order to work, they cannot have the freedom of choice to put themselves at risk (or not) for their own personal pleasures in life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Only a couple of months ago lots of people were rounding on Organ Morgan, myself included, over his attitude that the economy mattered, lives didn't. Boris Johnso came under huge fire for his "loved ones are going to die" speech, before deciding on a lockdown.

It's as if we're all a bit bored of not being able to do what we used to do, so everything needs opening up.

We're back at the wealth or health question. England has chosen to go for wealth. The government has decided to ignore scientific advice in part because some people have decided they want to go to pubs, go to the beach etc. Johnson has gone for the popular opinion, which as we all know isn't always the right one.

Drakeford's more cautious approach is one I applaud in part, but there are contradictions in what we can and cannot do. It hasn't been well thought out.

My feeling is now that we should perhaps open up everything. Sod it. I won't be going anywhere. I'll be continuing to keep distancing and protecting me and my family. Those who think they won't be affected can all meet up and form the second wave, like some giant Darwin award.

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It is amazing and, indeed, worrying that some people think they’re bulletproof. I wonder how the ‘open everything up’ brigade would feel if they or one of their loved ones succumbed at this stage?

I am glad that Wales has largely been able to plough it's own furrow. Whether we like it or not, devolution has come of age during the pandemic.
I certainly trust Drakeford more than Johnson. I think recent surveys show I am in the majority.
Having said all that, Wales Gov has been placed in an invidious position now that England is effectively unlocked. Also Sturgeon announced yesterday something similar in Scotland.
Radical changes are going to have to he made in Wales, sooner than later.
I for one am going to be very cautious over the next few months. I hope everyone else is.

Leaving aside his charisma (or lack of it) Drakeford’s stance is quite clever. It is always easier to let someone else take the lead in any unusual situation so that if things turn out badly then you can say “well thankfully we were more cautious” and if things turn out well, then you can happily announce that you will now allow similar actions. Win, win surely?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Maybe. You can have lockdown/restrictions til eternity with just 1 new case per month, but there comes a time when the risks have to be viewed in the light of every other aspect of our lives..

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Have we recorded just one new case a month? We are currently recording 50 new cases (of those tested) a day - or 1,500 a month - without counting those not tested. So, we are a long way off your 1 case a month figure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

He’s playing with 11 men behind the ball, he’s got to attack some time.

There’s being careful and there’s being “Please god, don’t let me make a mistake”

Wales’s businesses are dying

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It's not a football game mate. It's a lot more serious than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

He cant win

It wasnt that long ago people owning tourist attractions were telling people to stay away ! Dont bring the virus here !

Now everyone wants everything opened up

And this is obviously a political post as we have the same old crew having a dig

Hes got the charisma of a wet fish but hes doing the right thing

The effects of this virus on peoples mental health is going to be with us for a long time but it's either lots of people going to their doctors for anti depressants or people dying with a second wave of the virus

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My sentiments exactly, it is a no-win situation but some are using it to simply have a go at the bloke who is, as you say, a wet-fish. But, he isn't cavalier, and his decisions are not being asterisked with a "These decisions are not risk free" by scientists - unlike Johnson's clearly political motives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I don't know where you get the idea that we have the lowest R rate. The latest R value from the Technical Advice Cell, they supply the R data to the Senedd, was 0.9 average. That data is before the three food processing outbreaks, so I bet the next data will higher

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I'd like to see a link on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

As mentioned elsewhere as total deaths and infection rates come down come down the R rate becomes less and less useful as a measure, although never completely so.

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If the R rate is such a poor marker, how come countries like Germany (where the infection and death rates are ACTUALLY low, and not "I'M PROUD OF OUR RECORD" low) - still continue to use it? The r rate is a bad measure when it shows the Government may be getting it wrong. They use the same tactic to avoid the figures on child poverty - quoting the figures that paint them in a favourable light, and not the ones that make them look bad. Similarly, the Opposition do the same in reverse. The R rate is a scientific measure that is useful at all times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

My criticisms of him are nothing to do with his party, but basically the man. As sludge said he is a "wet fish" and I think that's putting it kindly. I commented on his lack of gravitas and charisma long ago in other threads.

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That's completely uncharacteristic of you, to play the man and not the ball - to use a football parlance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Only a couple of months ago lots of people were rounding on Organ Morgan, myself included, over his attitude that the economy mattered, lives didn't. Boris Johnso came under huge fire for his "loved ones are going to die" speech, before deciding on a lockdown.

It's as if we're all a bit bored of not being able to do what we used to do, so everything needs opening up.

We're back at the wealth or health question. England has chosen to go for wealth. The government has decided to ignore scientific advice in part because some people have decided they want to go to pubs, go to the beach etc. Johnson has gone for the popular opinion, which as we all know isn't always the right one.

Drakeford's more cautious approach is one I applaud in part, but there are contradictions in what we can and cannot do. It hasn't been well thought out.

My feeling is now that we should perhaps open up everything. Sod it. I won't be going anywhere. I'll be continuing to keep distancing and protecting me and my family. Those who think they won't be affected can all meet up and form the second wave, like some giant Darwin award.

---

I agree with you completely. The 5 mile rule, whilst I can see what it is trying to achieve, is a complete nonsense for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by splott parker

It is amazing and, indeed, worrying that some people think they’re bulletproof. I wonder how the ‘open everything up’ brigade would feel if they or one of their loved ones succumbed at this stage?

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Apparently, when you get bored of it, it just goes away. I wonder what the Government will tell us in the next briefing. Oh, that's right, they don't have them anymore. Result - illusion that this is all over. Result - warnings of second waves.

Instinctively I like the more cautious approach followed by Drakeford. However, Drakeford is not paying for the furlough support or the absence of VAT or income tax receipts so is under far less pressure to get things moving than Johnson. I wonder if the Welsh government were directly affected by the drain on the National Exchequer he would employ a more liberal approach. At the moment I agree with the earlier post; Drakeford is in a win win situation and will be proven right especially if there is a second spike.

“That's completely uncharacteristic of you, to play the man and not the ball - to use a football parlance.”

It’s not a game of football MATE, it’s more serious than that !!!

:hehe::hehe::hehe:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Instinctively I like the more cautious approach followed by Drakeford. However, Drakeford is not paying for the furlough support or the absence of VAT or income tax receipts so is under far less pressure to get things moving than Johnson. I wonder if the Welsh government were directly affected by the drain on the National Exchequer he would employ a more liberal approach. At the moment I agree with the earlier post; Drakeford is in a win win situation and will be proven right especially if there is a second spike.

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If there is a second spike, then people will say he was wrong because - look, second spike.

I see we are opening borders for tourism now too. If there is a spike in cases in, say, Spain - we won't know until it is too late and, wham bam, back to square 1 or 2 if we're lucky. But, as long as the tourist industry can overcharge parents and families during August, it's all ok. Those self-employed cottage owners, restaurant owners and ice-cream vans will obviously be declaring their true earnings from now on, and so the extra taxes that they pay due to a new-found honesty can pay for the next batch of furlough. Marvellous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

“That's completely uncharacteristic of you, to play the man and not the ball - to use a football parlance.”

It’s not a game of football MATE, it’s more serious than that !!!

:hehe::hehe::hehe:

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OK, so I understand now. Attacking a politician on a purely ad-hominem basis is equivalent to me voicing concerns on the impacts on people's health as a result of running out to "normality".

UK Government yesterday voted against testing NHS staff and Care workers on a weekly basis. Care workers are being tested weekly in Wales.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

OK, so I understand now. Attacking a politician on a purely ad-hominem basis is equivalent to me voicing concerns on the impacts on people's health as a result of running out to "normality".

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That’s a big bloody dictionary, you’ve swallowed there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

He’s playing with 11 men behind the ball, he’s got to attack some time.

There’s being careful and there’s being “Please god, don’t let me make a mistake”

Wales’s businesses are dying

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Yup and that could make a lot of people very un wealthy and no doubt un healthy. The health before wealth thing doesn’t really add up if you look at it more closely than that throw away comment....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

UK Government yesterday voted against testing NHS staff and Care workers on a weekly basis. Care workers are being tested weekly in Wales.

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It doesn’t really matter, does it !!!

That’s still 7 days to infect someone else. You could get tested on a Monday, catch it on a Tuesday, and go willy, nilly about your job, infecting patient’s, family and friends.

We’ve gotta start somewhere and being careful is the way forward, not relying on “week old tests”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

UK Government yesterday voted against testing NHS staff and Care workers on a weekly basis. Care workers are being tested weekly in Wales.

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Doesn't Wales have the worst rates for care home infections?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

It doesn’t really matter, does it !!!

That’s still 7 days to infect someone else. You could get tested on a Monday, catch it on a Tuesday, and go willy, nilly about your job, infecting patient’s, family and friends.

We’ve gotta start somewhere and being careful is the way forward, not relying on “week old tests”

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If being careful is the way forward why doesn't Mark Drakeford get a rapid lockdown in action in North Wales. At least 51 cases in. Wrexham alone today. They are seeing as many cases in North Wales now as they did at the peak, yet the 'lets be caution approach' has given way to 'wait and see'.

He's doing a Boris when he should be acting

The Welsh Government approach to lockdown has become highly politicised with a focus on being seen to differentiate themselves from England (in advance of the inevitable public inquiry).

With infection rates now much lower than peak the 5 mile rule is causing far more harm than good. It should long since have been replaced with a proper test, track and trace system with local targeted lockdowns for disease outbreaks. Instead we have an unnecessary countrywide ban on travel which continues to cause psychological harm and economic ruin.

Covid-19 is a disease transmitted in cramped, indoor areas. Yet we live in a country where the government has made it illegal for you to set foot on Pen Y Fan but encourages you to spend the day inside St David’s shopping mall and queue in Debenhams for non-essential goods. The science tells us that healthy children under the age of 15 are more likely to die from a lightning strike than Covid-19 but our schools remain closed and our children suffer.

Drippy, Chippy et al are focussed on one thing which is saving their butts, fine but please stop telling us you are following the science when all you are interested in is following your instincts for political survival.

Drakeford is a complete tool, remember this is the clown who cancelled the M4 relief road after the WG spent £110M on three options - he clearly has no consideration of the Welsh economy

I don't think it's a case of "saving their butts", more Drakeford and Sturgeon playing games to aim for independence.

Eldest son has been given timetable for "return" to school. **** all work will take place, work remaining as being sent via internet. His vaunted "one day a week" is in fact one and a half hours in total. To get to school, it's a 20 minute walk to train station, 20 minutes on train and same for return journey - he'll be in school TEN MINUTES more than his travel time. The unions must be pissing themselves, knowing an independent Wales under Drakeford will enable them to massively take the piss.

Completely agree with your point about open spaces vs enclosed areas. It's just dumb and quite frankly, I doubt even the police take it that seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delbert

The Welsh Government approach to lockdown has become highly politicised with a focus on being seen to differentiate themselves from England (in advance of the inevitable public inquiry).

With infection rates now much lower than peak the 5 mile rule is causing far more harm than good. It should long since have been replaced with a proper test, track and trace system with local targeted lockdowns for disease outbreaks. Instead we have an unnecessary countrywide ban on travel which continues to cause psychological harm and economic ruin.

Covid-19 is a disease transmitted in cramped, indoor areas. Yet we live in a country where the government has made it illegal for you to set foot on Pen Y Fan but encourages you to spend the day inside St David’s shopping mall and queue in Debenhams for non-essential goods. The science tells us that healthy children under the age of 15 are more likely to die from a lightning strike than Covid-19 but our schools remain closed and our children suffer.

Drippy, Chippy et al are focussed on one thing which is saving their butts, fine but please stop telling us you are following the science when all you are interested in is following your instincts for political survival.

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Ok, where's your EVIDENCE for that polemic?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

I don't think it's a case of "saving their butts", more Drakeford and Sturgeon playing games to aim for independence.

Eldest son has been given timetable for "return" to school. **** all work will take place, work remaining as being sent via internet. His vaunted "one day a week" is in fact one and a half hours in total. To get to school, it's a 20 minute walk to train station, 20 minutes on train and same for return journey - he'll be in school TEN MINUTES more than his travel time. The unions must be pissing themselves, knowing an independent Wales under Drakeford will enable them to massively take the piss.

Completely agree with your point about open spaces vs enclosed areas. It's just dumb and quite frankly, I doubt even the police take it that seriously.

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Do you understand you've contradicted yourself in the space of one paragraph there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

As mentioned elsewhere as total deaths and infection rates come down come down the R rate becomes less and less useful as a measure, although never completely so. The figures just need to be closely monitored and action taken when a particular area seems to increase, such as the meat plants in Anglesey. But there, where action should have been taken to control spread he has sat on his hands and done nothing!
Hospitals coped because of the lockdown enforced nationwide not be any particular thing that Mr Drakeford did. But they nearly ran out of PPE and nearly failed to appreciate the spread because of things he and his Minister said they had done or were going to do, and didn't!

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What abilities/qualifications/experience do you have in epidemiology to allow you to make such broad generalizations? Is this just more guessing on your part?