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Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...shadow-cabinet
You can have an argument whether retweeting that the Floyd choke hold being brought to the US by Israeli Secret Service was anti-semetic or anti-Israeli state or not.
What seem undeniable is the political blundering of Long-Bailey being a member of the shadow cabinet and retweeting something dubious that revives the image of Labour as an anti-semetic party. Her campaign for the leadership was abysmal and naive. Now she has allowed Starmer a free hit.
He sacks her to demonstrate to voters that this stuff won't be tolerated, he contrasts his actions with Johnson pathetically hanging onto Cummings and Jenrick even though their transgressions were greater and he chucks someone out of the Shadow Cabinet who he probably didn't want there in the first place.
Hopefully Long-Bailey will take some time out and come back a wiser politician. Thankfully not currently the Leader of the Labour Party.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...shadow-cabinet
You can have an argument whether retweeting that the Floyd choke hold being brought to the US by Israeli Secret Service was anti-semetic or anti-Israeli state or not.
What seem undeniable is the political blundering of Long-Bailey being a member of the shadow cabinet and retweeting something dubious that revives the image of Labour as an anti-semetic party. Her campaign for the leadership was abysmal and naive. Now she has allowed Starmer a free hit.
He sacks her to demonstrate to voters that this stuff won't be tolerated, he contrasts his actions with Johnson pathetically hanging onto Cummings and Jenrick even though their transgressions were greater and he chucks someone out of the Shadow Cabinet who he probably didn't want there in the first place.
Hopefully Long-Bailey will take some time out and come back a wiser politician. Thankfully not currently the Leader of the Labour Party.
Becky Wrong-Daily has form, rightly sacked but Starmer using it for optics
Andy McDonald, Lloyd Russell-Moyle both appointed to shadow cabinet by Starmer. Starmer happy enough to back Corbyn too.
Labour won't change until EHRC report drops, assuming they change.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ccfc_is_my_life
Becky Wrong-Daily has form, rightly sacked but Starmer using it for optics
Andy McDonald, Lloyd Russell-Moyle both appointed to shadow cabinet by Starmer. Starmer happy enough to back Corbyn too.
Labour won't change until EHRC report drops, assuming they change.
Tell_it_like_it_is
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Tell_it_like_it_is
Nope, but you carry on believing what you want to.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ccfc_is_my_life
Nope, but you carry on believing what you want to.
You misunderstand. That poster seemed to take his lines directly from Conservative Central Office as a self professed member of the party. Your line of attack was from the same furrow. Starmer's still got some commies with him. Are you a party member out of interest?
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...shadow-cabinet
You can have an argument whether retweeting that the Floyd choke hold being brought to the US by Israeli Secret Service was anti-semetic or anti-Israeli state or not.
What seem undeniable is the political blundering of Long-Bailey being a member of the shadow cabinet and retweeting something dubious that revives the image of Labour as an anti-semetic party. Her campaign for the leadership was abysmal and naive. Now she has allowed Starmer a free hit.
He sacks her to demonstrate to voters that this stuff won't be tolerated, he contrasts his actions with Johnson pathetically hanging onto Cummings and Jenrick even though their transgressions were greater and he chucks someone out of the Shadow Cabinet who he probably didn't want there in the first place.
Hopefully Long-Bailey will take some time out and come back a wiser politician. Thankfully not currently the Leader of the Labour Party.
No room for any argument about whether the choke-hold claim made by Maxine Peake (and thousands of others) is anti-semitic or anti-Israeli. The important question was whether her apology would be sufficient for Marie van der Zyl and the Board of Deputies of British Jews. It wasn't - so she had to be sacked!
Ironic in a way as Rebecca Long-Bailey had dutifully signed up to the '10 Pledges' demanded by the Board Of Deputies during the leadership election campaign, along with Lisa Nandy, Kier Starmer and 3 of the 5 deputy leadership candidates.
Long-Bailey's own twitter account of how this unfolded today doesn't reflect that well on her own judgement, but it is damning on Starmer and his office.
It is a matter of public record that tens of thousands of American and Israeli military and law enforcement officers have trained together since 2002 - some in Israel and many in the USA. I have seen the claims that the choke restraint method was adopted from the Israelis - and the denials of that. I have seen many of the archive photos of Palestinians restrained with a knee to their throats - but whether that is an 'approved' method of immobilising and occasionally killing someone, I don't know.
I doubt American police need to be taught how to kneel on a suspects throat by the Israelis - but if they were (directly or through cascade training) it will have come from representatives of the Israeli state - not from 'the Jews' or whatever the current designation is that justifies the allegations of 'anti-semitism'.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
You misunderstand. That poster seemed to take his lines directly from Conservative Central Office as a self professed member of the party. Your line of attack was from the same furrow. Starmer's still got some commies with him. Are you a party member out of interest?
What on earth are you rabbiting on about you loon?
Do some research into Starmers appointments before commenting.
Are you intimating only Tories give a shit about antisemitism?
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
No room for any argument about whether the choke-hold claim made by Maxine Peake (and thousands of others) is anti-semitic or anti-Israeli. The important question was whether her apology would be sufficient for Marie van der Zyl and the Board of Deputies of British Jews. It wasn't - so she had to be sacked!
Ironic in a way as Rebecca Long-Bailey had dutifully signed up to the '10 Pledges' demanded by the Board Of Deputies during the leadership election campaign, along with Lisa Nandy, Kier Starmer and 3 of the 5 deputy leadership candidates.
Long-Bailey's own twitter account of how this unfolded today doesn't reflect that well on her own judgement, but it is damning on Starmer and his office.
It is a matter of public record that tens of thousands of American and Israeli military and law enforcement officers have trained together since 2002 - some in Israel and many in the USA. I have seen the claims that the choke restraint method was adopted from the Israelis - and the denials of that. I have seen many of the archive photos of Palestinians restrained with a knee to their throats - but whether that is an 'approved' method of immobilising and occasionally killing someone, I don't know.
I doubt American police need to be taught how to kneel on a suspects throat by the Israelis - but if they were (directly or through cascade training) it will have come from representatives of the Israeli state - not from 'the Jews' or whatever the current designation is that justifies the allegations of 'anti-semitism'.
Thanks Jon. The bit I am missing is how it is damning on Starmer and his office. She put him in a position that he would be badged as "same old same old" if he had taken any other action than sacking her or he had the option of showing that he is his own man with a new broom. Tricky political choice.
The party recognised that the Prince across the water and the rest of the clan are not coming back soon after the election debacle and RBL reinforcing some of the points in the lessons learned report just makes her look too immature for the offices she aspires to. Why there are elements of the party that keep picking an open wound I don't know.
Is the Israel/Palestine conflict so important to parts of the Labour Party that they are willing to accept domestic political decline as a necessary price to pay to show their internationalist credentials?
What else could he have done that would not have been exploited by the ccfc_is_my_life or tell it like it is types if he still posted on here?
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Yes, fighting antisemitism is "exploiting" it.
Tiresome yet utterly predictable given antisemitism is acceptable to some.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ccfc_is_my_life
What on earth are you rabbiting on about you loon?
Do some research into Starmers appointments before commenting.
Are you intimating only Tories give a shit about antisemitism?
Loon? Nice call
I remember Tell it like it is asking me if I was "on the spectrum" when I challenged him about something even though he had previously said his son had special needs. Don't be like Tell it like it is
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Loon? Nice call
I remember Tell it like it is asking me if I was "on the spectrum" when I challenged him about something even though he had previously said his son had special needs. Don't be like Tell it like it is
You're coming out with utter garbage and desperately seeking connections where there are none, loon.
Getting back vaguely to the point, I well remember Splott Dai posting antisemitism and conveniently not being called out by too many. It was pretty easy to details his antisemitism which is why he's been focused on. Shameful time for this forum that mods let him post freely. Still, I've little doubt many shared his views just lacked the intellectual honesty to admit them.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Thanks Jon. The bit I am missing is how it is damning on Starmer and his office. She put him in a position that he would be badged as "same old same old" if he had taken any other action than sacking her or he had the option of showing that he is his own man with a new broom. Tricky political choice.
The party recognised that the Prince across the water and the rest of the clan are not coming back soon after the election debacle and RBL reinforcing some of the points in the lessons learned report just makes her look too immature for the offices she aspires to. Why there are elements of the party that keep picking an open wound I don't know.
Is the Israel/Palestine conflict so important to parts of the Labour Party that they are willing to accept domestic political decline as a necessary price to pay to show their internationalist credentials?
What else could he have done that would not have been exploited by the ccfc_is_my_life or tell it like it is types if he still posted on here?
I am just going on the Guardian blog (the Guardian are certainly no friends of RLB or the Corbynites in Labour) which qouted then summarised her tweets like this:
Long-Bailey claims Sir Keir Starmer’s office originally approved the tweet she issued clarifying her original endorsement of the Maxine Peak interview. This is significant because it was in response to that clarification tweet that the Board of Deputies of British Jews suggested she should be sacked.
She suggests that Starmer’s office subsequently changed its mind, and demanded the withdrawal of the original tweet. She said she was not willing to do that without being allowed to issue a press statement explaining the clarification.
She says Starmer refused to discuss the matter with her in person before she was dismissed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ichard-desmond
On your other point, it is sad but for Starmer I think garnering domestic brownie points is certainly more important than international solidarity and defence of Palestinians. Anti-Israel policies (or apartheid constitution and state ideology) is now anti-semitism. Anti-Zionism is now anti-semitism (although Zionism used to be a minority view in the world Jewish population and is still opposed by many orthodox, reform and secular Jews, and there is even an Jewish anti-Zionist party represented in the Knesset). There are way more Christian Zionists in the world (mainly in the USA but some in Africa) than Jewish Zionists. Now anything that mildly irritates the Board of Deputies (now they have finished welcoming the appointment of Israel's new ultra-right wing, racist ambassador to the UK) is anti-semitism. All other Jewish voices are silenced or marginalised (or in the case of the Labour Party, often suspended or expelled).
That said I think RLB was naive - even if she was commenting on the earlier version of the Maxine Peake interview that had a quote from Amnesty - subsequently amended - that seemed to confirm the main allegation. I don't think she has covered herself in glory since she stood for the leadership. I went to her Sheffield election rally (and to Starmer's) and was unimpressed - by both!
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Interesting white guy telling Jews what is and isn't antisemitic. Funny that.
No wonder Splott Dai posted here for so long with such a target audience.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ccfc_is_my_life
Interesting white guy telling Jews what is and isn't antisemitic. Funny that.
No wonder Splott Dai posted here for so long with such a target audience.
Until I read this I thought that there were white Jews as well as those of other races. What colour are you and what was the last post you considered to be anti-semetic on this Board and why?
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ccfc_is_my_life
Interesting white guy telling Jews what is and isn't antisemitic. Funny that.
No wonder Splott Dai posted here for so long with such a target audience.
Are you replying to me? Are you assuming I am white? Are you assuming I am not Jewish? Are you claiming I am telling 'Jews what is and isn't antisemitic' when I am replying to Cyril's post? Wow - you're full of it aren't you?
Just to clarify where you're coming from, will you give me an answer to this: Is opposition to the actions of the State Of Israel or to the ideology of Zionism anti-semitism?
I have known hundreds of Jewish people over the years who have campaigned against Israeli war crimes and illegal settlements, and who regard themselves as anti-Zionists. In recent years they have been labelled as 'the wrong type' of Jews, or 'self hating' Jews and other such labels and faced endless abuse.
I regard anti-semitism as abhorrent. I regard racist apologists for an apartheid regime as abhorrent too.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Wonderful news, well done Keir theres a few more hidden in the bowels of the party and supporters.
You will win back your voters showing this kind of strength.
Crazy to see the BLM fully supported and rightly so, but not with this racist cancer still within ones party and minds .
However one positions or defends there's enough evidence to know antisemitism exists ,even Sir Kier has admitted as much ,and to have the Human Rights Commission and police investigating it , speaks volumes.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Wonderful news, well done Keir theres a few more hidden in the bowels of the party and supporters.
You will win back your voters showing this kind of strength.
Crazy to see the BLM fully supported and rightly so, but not with this racist cancer still within ones party and minds .
However one positions or defends there's enough evidence to know antisemitism exists ,even Sir Kier has admitted as much ,and to have the Human Rights Commission and police investigating it , speaks volumes.
Go on...I'm in!
Talk us through the thought processes that ended up with the phrase "Crazy to see the BLM fully supported and rightly so,"
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I am just going on the Guardian blog (the Guardian are certainly no friends of RLB or the Corbynites in Labour) which qouted then summarised her tweets like this:
Long-Bailey claims Sir Keir Starmer’s office originally approved the tweet she issued clarifying her original endorsement of the Maxine Peak interview. This is significant because it was in response to that clarification tweet that the Board of Deputies of British Jews suggested she should be sacked.
She suggests that Starmer’s office subsequently changed its mind, and demanded the withdrawal of the original tweet. She said she was not willing to do that without being allowed to issue a press statement explaining the clarification.
She says Starmer refused to discuss the matter with her in person before she was dismissed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ichard-desmond
On your other point, it is sad but for Starmer I think garnering domestic brownie points is certainly more important than international solidarity and defence of Palestinians. Anti-Israel policies (or apartheid constitution and state ideology) is now anti-semitism. Anti-Zionism is now anti-semitism (although Zionism used to be a minority view in the world Jewish population and is still opposed by many orthodox, reform and secular Jews, and there is even an Jewish anti-Zionist party represented in the Knesset). There are way more Christian Zionists in the world (mainly in the USA but some in Africa) than Jewish Zionists. Now anything that mildly irritates the Board of Deputies (now they have finished welcoming the appointment of Israel's new ultra-right wing, racist ambassador to the UK) is anti-semitism. All other Jewish voices are silenced or marginalised (or in the case of the Labour Party, often suspended or expelled).
That said I think RLB was naive - even if she was commenting on the earlier version of the Maxine Peake interview that had a quote from Amnesty - subsequently amended - that seemed to confirm the main allegation. I don't think she has covered herself in glory since she stood for the leadership. I went to her Sheffield election rally (and to Starmer's) and was unimpressed - by both!
Interesting stuff and top posting as usual from you Jon.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
This is pitiful from Starmer. I have serious doubts RLB was approving of an anti Semitic comment here. Besides why is Rachel Reeves still in a job when she was praising the well known anti Semite Nancy Astor a few weeks ago? In the meantime the silence from Starmer over the appalling behaviour of party staffers towards Black MP’s is deafening.
Having rejoined the party I may well rip up my membership if Starmer carries on like this.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
This is pitiful from Starmer. I have serious doubts RLB was approving of an anti Semitic comment here. Besides why is Rachel Reeves still in a job when she was praising the well known anti Semite Nancy Astor a few weeks ago? In the meantime the silence from Starmer over the appalling behaviour of party staffers towards Black MP’s is deafening.
Having rejoined the party I may well rip up my membership if Starmer carries on like this.
You are not alone with that view. A lot of people have resigned in the past few months. A steady trickle have been suspended or expelled - and in every case I have seen details published it has been for online criticism of Zionism, support for BDS or for attacking the actions of Israel as a state - such things as the annexation plans, home demolitions, detentions without trial (including children) and murder by the IDF. When Labour adopted (unlike most parties or states) the IHRA 'new' definition of antisemitism its supporters went out of their way to say it would not be used against critics of Israel and that 'nothing had changed' there. They lied. Although I imagine Starmer will be very happy to see more anti-racist supporters of Palestinians walk away or be pushed out. He talked in the election hustings of having 'an ethical foreign policy' - but not much sign of that.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
This is pitiful from Starmer. I have serious doubts RLB was approving of an anti Semitic comment here. Besides why is Rachel Reeves still in a job when she was praising the well known anti Semite Nancy Astor a few weeks ago? In the meantime the silence from Starmer over the appalling behaviour of party staffers towards Black MP’s is deafening.
Having rejoined the party I may well rip up my membership if Starmer carries on like this.
I feel your pain Pearcey.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
You are not alone with that view. A lot of people have resigned in the past few months. A steady trickle have been suspended or expelled - and in every case I have seen details published it has been for online criticism of Zionism, support for BDS or for attacking the actions of Israel as a state - such things as the annexation plans, home demolitions, detentions without trial (including children) and murder by the IDF. When Labour adopted (unlike most parties or states) the IHRA 'new' definition of antisemitism its supporters went out of their way to say it would not be used against critics of Israel and that 'nothing had changed' there. They lied. Although I imagine Starmer will be very happy to see more anti-racist supporters of Palestinians walk away or be pushed out. He talked in the election hustings of having 'an ethical foreign policy' - but not much sign of that.
Disappointed in Starmer and the continuing direction of travel.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
I cannot believe there are still people here doing the anti semitism thing !!!
Same old stuff and same people saying it.
I mentioned that I'd only logged into this site again because I'd seen it referred to on another forum in connection with this horrible thing. I defended Cardiff fans on that board only to now see more anti Semitic bile here again.
It's actually no more than about six prolific posters here defending anti semitism but fans of other clubs look in as we might to theirs for different reasons and they see this !
No wonder we're getting a bad name but I honestly believe that the bigots here don't represent the massive majority of Cardiff fans.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Labour party leadership seems compromised, if they get back into power I fear at this stage what their foreign policy would look like.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
I cannot believe there are still people here doing the anti semitism thing !!!
Same old stuff and same people saying it.
I mentioned that I'd only logged into this site again because I'd seen it referred to on another forum in connection with this horrible thing. I defended Cardiff fans on that board only to now see more anti Semitic bile here again.
It's actually no more than about six prolific posters here defending anti semitism but fans of other clubs look in as we might to theirs for different reasons and they see this !
No wonder we're getting a bad name but I honestly believe that the bigots here don't represent the massive majority of Cardiff fans.
You on with this crap again?
What was the antisemitism (from Maxine Peake or from Rebecca Long-Bailey) and who has defended antisemitism on this board around this latest story - with or without bile?
Try answering without use of antisemitic tropes, crass islamophobia, or referencing your own strange hierarchy of racism - that would be a pleasant change from last time you waded in slinging accusations.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
You on with this crap again?
What was the antisemitism (from Maxine Peake or from Rebecca Long-Bailey) and who has defended antisemitism on this board around this latest story - with or without bile?
Try answering without use of antisemitic tropes, crass islamophobia, or referencing your own strange hierarchy of racism - that would be a pleasant change from last time you waded in slinging accusations.
Sir Kier needs removing then, drop him a note via your membership surely it provides that access or right of voice , put a copy up for us to read as I get the feeling you think its not a party issue, I might be wrong ,apologies I am intrigued to see your view on this one plus the other incidents relating to the Labour Party and its membership and group links , I simply just don't understand how this exists ??
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Sir Kier needs removing then, drop him a note via your membership surely it provides that access or right of voice , put a copy up for us to read as I get the feeling you think its not a party issue, I might be wrong ,apologies I am intrigued to see your view on this one plus the other incidents relating to the Labour Party and its membership and group links , I simply just don't understand how this exists ??
My view on all this is straightforward.
There are antisemites in the Labour Party (as there are in all UK parties - many with a bigger problem than Labour but much less scrutiny) and I fully support the suspension and/or expulsion of anyone who has displayed antisemitic views in person or on social media. I have seen some examples of genuine antisemitic activity - mainly in the form of tweets.
There are many anti-racist campaigners for Palestinian rights in the Labour Party who have been falsely accused and sometimes expelled for their opposition to Israeli policies, state ideology, or in favour of non-violent resistance campaigns like BDS. The recent adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism by Labour formalised a position that equated anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel with antisemitism - despite its proponents claims to the contrary. A lot of those accused in Labour are Jewish themselves.
The claim made in the Maxine Peake interview with the Independent that Israeli police/military 'taught' US police and military the choke hold that killed George Floyd has been made many many times since his death. I have seen no proof that the american police were taught this technique by the Israelis - although there are numerous pictures out there of Palestinians restrained in the same way.
The Israeli and US police and military have been joint training since 2002 - involving tens of thousands of people over that time.
The original Maxine Peake claim was based on an Amnesty report that covered the joint training - but never alleged that choke holds were passed on to the Americans. Amnesty clarified what was in its report and the Independent amended the interview text. The Israeli government has denied this and I guess American law enforcement and state representatives have backed them up. Whether that is true or not is not the issue. Rebecca long-Bailey was probably (given the timing of the tweet) responding to the original interview text. Whatever, once Amnesty had clarified their findings it was right for Maxine Peake and RLB to withdraw the allegation and apologise for an unsubstantiated allegation.
Maxine Peake did. RLB issued a retraction agreed with Starmer's office - but the Board Of Deputies wasn't satisfied and wanted her sacked. RLB wanted to issue a clarification statement alongside deleting her original tweet - but Starmer refused. Starmer also refused to speak to her about the issue. Before anything else could happen she was sacked.
Starmer repeated the allegation that claiming the Israeli government had trained American police in the choke hold technique was an antisemitic conspiracy theory. It is only antisemitic if any and every objection to Israeli actions is antisemitism. That now seems to be the case. The context is simply the similarity of practice by the forces of two countries who train together. Last night on Channel 4 News Julia Neuberger was claiming that the allegation of shared restraint techniques reinforced the medieval Blood Libel against European Jews! Wow.
In my opinion Starmer has made a calculated decision to use this incident to sack RLB for several reasons: To purge Corbyn support in the Shadow Cabinet; to shut down discussion of Israel's international relationships (especially with the USA that provides funding, strategic support and diplomatic cover) in the context of an impending annexation of 30% of the West Bank; to out the Labour spokesperson on education who he thinks has sided more 'with the producers than the consumers' (Guardian) and left him floundering in PMQs last week, but mostly for 'the optics'.
He knows the public don't care about the detail or the rights and wrongs of the issue - but he can clear out some domestic opposition whilst getting the full support of the print and broadcast media, the Labour right and defectors, the 'official' Jewish community press and (self appointed) representatives, and even a good few Tory MPs. Most of all he looks strong and decisive and set against Boris Johnson supporting Cummings and Jenrick he looks convincing. He may have got his calculations right on this - even if he has done it by over-reaction and reinforcing messages that betray the Palestinians.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
You on with this crap again?
What was the antisemitism (from Maxine Peake or from Rebecca Long-Bailey) and who has defended antisemitism on this board around this latest story - with or without bile?
Try answering without use of antisemitic tropes, crass islamophobia, or referencing your own strange hierarchy of racism - that would be a pleasant change from last time you waded in slinging accusations.
As we discussed before the election, ( and was borne out by Labour's crushing defeat), most people don't any longer accept this stuff about Israel and Zionism as an excuse to go after Jews.
It's the same kind of diversion tactic which people used to use to justify racism against black people in the 1970s and it won't wash.
There are far far worse governments and regimes than Israel. You know that, or you certainly should know it, yet you choose to constantly vilify Israel rather than any of them.
You're out of touch both with current attitudes to this sort of thing , and the history of anti semitism which has always and without exception started with similar excuses and diversions - moneylending, profiteering from poverty, keeping the good jobs amongst themselves, infiltrating the royal court or plotting against the church. It's often ended in horrible abuses and even genocide, and therefore people have learned to challenge such bigotry and reject the bigots excuses at an early stage.
We know what's behind it and where it will lead if we stand by and accept excuses.
That's the real and substantive issue here, but it also irritates me that the tiny number of anti Semites within our number have given our whole club a bad name on this subject. I'm tired of reading stuff about Cardiff City hating Jews because that's just not true and I know that 99.999% of our supporters reject all kinds of racism.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
My view on all this is straightforward.
There are antisemites in the Labour Party (as there are in all UK parties - many with a bigger problem than Labour but much less scrutiny) and I fully support the suspension and/or expulsion of anyone who has displayed antisemitic views in person or on social media. I have seen some examples of genuine antisemitic activity - mainly in the form of tweets.
There are many anti-racist campaigners for Palestinian rights in the Labour Party who have been falsely accused and sometimes expelled for their opposition to Israeli policies, state ideology, or in favour of non-violent resistance campaigns like BDS. The recent adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism by Labour formalised a position that equated anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel with antisemitism - despite its proponents claims to the contrary. A lot of those accused in Labour are Jewish themselves.
The claim made in the Maxine Peake interview with the Independent that Israeli police/military 'taught' US police and military the choke hold that killed George Floyd has been made many many times since his death. I have seen no proof that the american police were taught this technique by the Israelis - although there are numerous pictures out there of Palestinians restrained in the same way.
The Israeli and US police and military have been joint training since 2002 - involving tens of thousands of people over that time.
The original Maxine Peake claim was based on an Amnesty report that covered the joint training - but never alleged that choke holds were passed on to the Americans. Amnesty clarified what was in its report and the Independent amended the interview text. The Israeli government has denied this and I guess American law enforcement and state representatives have backed them up. Whether that is true or not is not the issue. Rebecca long-Bailey was probably (given the timing of the tweet) responding to the original interview text. Whatever, once Amnesty had clarified their findings it was right for Maxine Peake and RLB to withdraw the allegation and apologise for an unsubstantiated allegation.
Maxine Peake did. RLB issued a retraction agreed with Starmer's office - but the Board Of Deputies wasn't satisfied and wanted her sacked. RLB wanted to issue a clarification statement alongside deleting her original tweet - but Starmer refused. Starmer also refused to speak to her about the issue. Before anything else could happen she was sacked.
Starmer repeated the allegation that claiming the Israeli government had trained American police in the choke hold technique was an antisemitic conspiracy theory. It is only antisemitic if any and every objection to Israeli actions is antisemitism. That now seems to be the case. The context is simply the similarity of practice by the forces of two countries who train together. Last night on Channel 4 News Julia Neuberger was claiming that the allegation of shared restraint techniques reinforced the medieval Blood Libel against European Jews! Wow.
In my opinion Starmer has made a calculated decision to use this incident to sack RLB for several reasons: To purge Corbyn support in the Shadow Cabinet; to shut down discussion of Israel's international relationships (especially with the USA that provides funding, strategic support and diplomatic cover) in the context of an impending annexation of 30% of the West Bank; to out the Labour spokesperson on education who he thinks has sided more 'with the producers than the consumers' (Guardian) and left him floundering in PMQs last week, but mostly for 'the optics'.
He knows the public don't care about the detail or the rights and wrongs of the issue - but he can clear out some domestic opposition whilst getting the full support of the print and broadcast media, the Labour right and defectors, the 'official' Jewish community press and (self appointed) representatives, and even a good few Tory MPs. Most of all he looks strong and decisive and set against Boris Johnson supporting Cummings and Jenrick he looks convincing. He may have got his calculations right on this - even if he has done it by over-reaction and reinforcing messages that betray the Palestinians.
Jon, the bit that I don't get is your last sentence that this is somehow a betrayal of the Palestinians. The stuff that got Long-Bailey into trouble was about the Israeli state's relationship or otherwise with US forces of law and order, which don't seem to have factual substance.
If the Labour Party was able to legitimately differntiate between what the Israeli State does to deny the Palestinians their legitimate rights and support them in that cause it might have more resonance than re-tweeting anything that shows the Israeli state in a bad light whether it has anything to do with their appalling treatment of the Palestinians or not.
You could equally betray the Palestinians because in your aim to support their cause you allow your legitimate concerns to be drowned out by highlighting everything anti-Israeli whether it impacts the Palestinians or not and allows lobbying groups to cry foul. This has been easy territory for the latter and the kind of trolling idiots that periodically pop up on this Board in their various guises.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
Jon, the bit that I don't get is your last sentence that this is somehow a betrayal of the Palestinians. The stuff that got Long-Bailey into trouble was about the Israeli state's relationship or otherwise with US forces of law and order, which don't seem to have factual substance.
If the Labour Party was able to legitimately differentiate between what the Israeli State does to deny the Palestinians their legitimate rights and support them in that cause it might have more resonance than re-tweeting anything that shows the Israeli state in a bad light whether it has anything to do with their appalling treatment of the Palestinians or not.
You could equally betray the Palestinians because in your aim to support their cause you allow your legitimate concerns to be drowned out by highlighting everything anti-Israeli whether it impacts the Palestinians or not and allows lobbying groups to cry foul. This has been easy territory for the latter and the kind of trolling idiots that periodically pop up on this Board in their various guises.
In my opinion the way any legitimate resistance to oppression, expropriation and persecution of Palestinian Arabs by Israel (either in Israel proper or the occupied territories or West Bank/Gaza) is hamstrung by the way all those criticisms and solidarity actions are labelled 'antisemitic' - the false conflation of Israel with Zionism with Jewish people. That is the intention and it works. Kier Starmer reinforced that when he described the Maxine Peake comment about shared 'restraint' techniques as an antisemitic conspiracy theory - and I believe that idea (which has gained more and more currency in recent years) is a betrayal of the Palestinian resistance. Choke holds are used in both countries (loads of photographic evidence) and both countries share training programmes for police and military. That is not disputed.
I agree with your second point. It was naive to retweet that article and even more naive not to expect the reaction RLB got. It hasn't helped the Palestinian cause at all. The Israeli government and other agencies in Israel and the USA have been denying for weeks that choke holds were part of the training programmes. In the absence of hard evidence the claim should not have been made, and if made and refuted (the Amnesty clarification) should have been withdrawn and an apology made. Maxine Peake did that but RLB seems not to have been given the opportunity.
I also agree with your last point. This sort of argument - even if only with Ronnie and his clones on a football message board - is not productive (is a side issue or distraction) and could drown out the more important things that impact on justice, peace and security in Israel/Palestine and the wider world. I don't think I have ever started a thread on this subject but I have been wound up enough to reply - and I don't want to go through a repeat of that dialogue of the deaf that we had last year before the election. It is like Groundhog Day.
I have spent all afternoon discussing this with family and friends - most of whom think Starmer has played a blinder - and none of whom are interested in whether the original claim made by Maxine Peake (and thousands of others) was right or wrong or a comment on current events or a sinister conspiracy theory. They all saw it as a PR move that was a stunning success. They are probably right.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
In my opinion the way any legitimate resistance to oppression, expropriation and persecution of Palestinian Arabs by Israel (either in Israel proper or the occupied territories or West Bank/Gaza) is hamstrung by the way all those criticisms and solidarity actions are labelled 'antisemitic' - the false conflation of Israel with Zionism with Jewish people. That is the intention and it works. Kier Starmer reinforced that when he described the Maxine Peake comment about shared 'restraint' techniques as an antisemitic conspiracy theory - and I believe that idea (which has gained more and more currency in recent years) is a betrayal of the Palestinian resistance. Choke holds are used in both countries (loads of photographic evidence) and both countries share training programmes for police and military. That is not disputed.
I agree with your second point. It was naive to retweet that article and even more naive not to expect the reaction RLB got. It hasn't helped the Palestinian cause at all. The Israeli government and other agencies in Israel and the USA have been denying for weeks that choke holds were part of the training programmes. In the absence of hard evidence the claim should not have been made, and if made and refuted (the Amnesty clarification) should have been withdrawn and an apology made. Maxine Peake did that but RLB seems not to have been given the opportunity.
I also agree with your last point. This sort of argument - even if only with Ronnie and his clones on a football message board - is not productive (is a side issue or distraction) and could drown out the more important things that impact on justice, peace and security in Israel/Palestine and the wider world. I don't think I have ever started a thread on this subject but I have been wound up enough to reply - and I don't want to go through a repeat of that dialogue of the deaf that we had last year before the election. It is like Groundhog Day.
I have spent all afternoon discussing this with family and friends - most of whom think Starmer has played a blinder - and none of whom are interested in whether the original claim made by Maxine Peake (and thousands of others) was right or wrong or a comment on current events or a sinister conspiracy theory. They all saw it as a PR move that was a stunning success. They are probably right.
So the two of you combine to concoct a word salad to divert from your repeated sub theme !
Won't work.
How very very typical that you accuse me of dishonesty ( because that's what multi IDs would be) because I complain about your bigotry. You've said that before and it's been disproven, so you know it's a plain lie, yet you follow the same course of your horrible predecessors through history and accuse the victims !
You posted this crap AGAIN and you posted that disgusting cartoon which represented a LIE and depicted a Jewish soldier with the same distorted degenerate looking face that the Nazi cartoonists used !
Every time you post such filth I shall confront you on it because that is the duty of all decent human beings.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
In my opinion the way any legitimate resistance to oppression, expropriation and persecution of Palestinian Arabs by Israel (either in Israel proper or the occupied territories or West Bank/Gaza) is hamstrung by the way all those criticisms and solidarity actions are labelled 'antisemitic' - the false conflation of Israel with Zionism with Jewish people. That is the intention and it works. Kier Starmer reinforced that when he described the Maxine Peake comment about shared 'restraint' techniques as an antisemitic conspiracy theory - and I believe that idea (which has gained more and more currency in recent years) is a betrayal of the Palestinian resistance. Choke holds are used in both countries (loads of photographic evidence) and both countries share training programmes for police and military. That is not disputed.
I agree with your second point. It was naive to retweet that article and even more naive not to expect the reaction RLB got. It hasn't helped the Palestinian cause at all. The Israeli government and other agencies in Israel and the USA have been denying for weeks that choke holds were part of the training programmes. In the absence of hard evidence the claim should not have been made, and if made and refuted (the Amnesty clarification) should have been withdrawn and an apology made. Maxine Peake did that but RLB seems not to have been given the opportunity.
I also agree with your last point. This sort of argument - even if only with Ronnie and his clones on a football message board - is not productive (is a side issue or distraction) and could drown out the more important things that impact on justice, peace and security in Israel/Palestine and the wider world. I don't think I have ever started a thread on this subject but I have been wound up enough to reply - and I don't want to go through a repeat of that dialogue of the deaf that we had last year before the election. It is like Groundhog Day.
I have spent all afternoon discussing this with family and friends - most of whom think Starmer has played a blinder - and none of whom are interested in whether the original claim made by Maxine Peake (and thousands of others) was right or wrong or a comment on current events or a sinister conspiracy theory. They all saw it as a PR move that was a stunning success. They are probably right.
One of those modern buzzwords that so annoy me is "optics", but I'm going to use it here because, for me, this issue is all about the optics whereby I believe the public at large (who, in a poll last year, were in favour of this country having a "strong" leader by a margin of almost two to one) will see Starmer's decision as being a "strong" one.
If people want to the contrast that with the actions of our "strong man" PM,who, laughably, told a Labour MP representing a Brighton constituency that the representatives of that city should "show some guts" and champion their constituencies at PMQs on the day before we saw those scenes at Bournemouth (there were also incidents at Brighton that day which have tended to be overshadowed by what happened further along the coast)
https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...n-to-visitors/
then I wouldn't have thought the Labour leader will be too unhappy.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
So the two of you combine to concoct a word salad to divert from your repeated sub theme !
Won't work.
How very very typical that you accuse me of dishonesty ( because that's what multi IDs would be) because I complain about your bigotry. You've said that before and it's been disproven, so you know it's a plain lie, yet you follow the same course of your horrible predecessors through history and accuse the victims !
You posted this crap AGAIN and you posted that disgusting cartoon which represented a LIE and depicted a Jewish soldier with the same distorted degenerate looking face that the Nazi cartoonists used !
Every time you post such filth I shall confront you on it because that is the duty of all decent human beings.
Pathetic! More invention, more insults, more distortions, and much more froth!
The victims are George Floyd and other young black men killed by American police, and the Palestinian men, women and children killed in similar circumstances by Israeli forces. You don't seem concerned for these real victims - you never have in all your trolling.
What has not been proven - and so should not be claimed - is that a knee to the neck was used in joint training programmes. The use of similar restraint techniques is a fact - not a lie - and parts of the Israeli press have illustrated that in recent weeks with archive photos.
The cartoon was commissioned and published by The Times Of Israel in Jerusalem.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
One of those modern buzzwords that so annoy me is "optics", but I'm going to use it here because, for me, this issue is all about the optics whereby I believe the public at large (who, in a poll last year, were in favour of this country having a "strong" leader by a margin of almost two to one) will see Starmer's decision as being a "strong" one.
If people want to the contrast that with the actions of our "strong man" PM,who, laughably, told a Labour MP representing a Brighton constituency that the representatives of that city should "show some guts" and champion their constituencies at PMQs on the day before we saw those scenes at Bournemouth (there were also incidents at Brighton that day which have tended to be overshadowed by what happened further along the coast)
https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...n-to-visitors/
then I wouldn't have thought the Labour leader will be too unhappy.
I think you are right. I don't agree with Starmer, but I would not be surprised to see another poll bounce in the coming weeks.
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
So the two of you combine to concoct a word salad to divert from your repeated sub theme !
Won't work.
How very very typical that you accuse me of dishonesty ( because that's what multi IDs would be) because I complain about your bigotry. You've said that before and it's been disproven, so you know it's a plain lie, yet you follow the same course of your horrible predecessors through history and accuse the victims !
You posted this crap AGAIN and you posted that disgusting cartoon which represented a LIE and depicted a Jewish soldier with the same distorted degenerate looking face that the Nazi cartoonists used !
Every time you post such filth I shall confront you on it because that is the duty of all decent human beings.
On this subject matter denial always going to exist .
The link is the hatred of the Israeli state and the fact its cleverly tagged to the jewish people , there are crimes all over the world, look at Assad but you won't see old Maxine and her like banging on about that .
Kier made mistake adding RLB to his team its was just to appease the left , silly thing to do as she us part of this cancer in the party .
You watch if the Human Rights Commission comes out badly for Labour it will be called a right wing media vendetta.
Instead of being big enough to accept there is an issue its supporters cow tail away from the obvious issue that exists, they even don't accept the mutterings of many iof its brave MP's who bravely accept it's an issue, and many capable MP's have been lost to the party as a result sadly , who could take on the Tories .
Disgusting behaviour of the party who shine a beacon on being inclusive, even if its one or many delivering this mantra of hatred , its one too many .
If Keir carries on with the gutting of the nasties , bringing the party back to a place where it not driven by narrow minded politics.. he could ndeed be a PM in waiting , and a good leader on the world stage , that embodies progressive politics , is able to influence and discuss issues in the world like the Palestinian cause , rather than resort to the nasty social media jibes that helps no one.
Crack on Kier , get rid of the lot .
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Rebecca long-Bailey replaced as Shadow Education spokesperson by Kate Green - the former chair of Owen Smith's failed leadership challenge against Jeremy Corbyn.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tion-secretary
Another triumph for the 'unity' leader!
All the best Kate - despite the sub-text I hope you do a great job!
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Re: Rebecca Long-Bailey Sacked
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Rebecca long-Bailey replaced as Shadow Education spokesperson by Kate Green - the former chair of Owen Smith's failed leadership challenge against Jeremy Corbyn.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tion-secretary
Another triumph for the 'unity' leader!
All the best Kate - despite the sub-text I hope you do a great job!
I understand she's is a very good choice , been championing child poverty, one parent families for many years , nice to see a 60 year old getting a chance as well , experience counts
