Vincent Tan - stick or twist?

WOL have done another of their 'short on facts, long on opinion' pieces on what Vincent Tan will do with the club now - against the backdrop of ongoing court cases (Sala fee, Hammam, Isaacs) and his personal wealth dropping due to Covid - with the options of sell, retrench, or spend for promotion all considered by Paul Abandonato.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...roads-18695485

He claims there have been 2 offers to buy the club in recent times - both rejected by Tan on the grounds that they were not right for the future of City (rather than on the size of the offer). He claims Tan has put £165m of his own money into the club over the past 10 years (I assume that is a net figure - although it isn't explicit) and is currently subsidising the club to the tune of £25m per year (again I assume that is the Covid rate of subsidy - although it isn't explicit).

He concludes that Tan is likely to push the boat out again, as he did with Warnock, and spend to give us the best chance of promotion next year. But that is not based on any interviews with Tan, Dalman, Choo or any first hand information. It is based on teeth sucking and tea leaf swirling. It could be right.

I can’t see there being much money available and we’ll be stuck with the likes of Flint and Pack on considerable wages ( and Vassells probably). It would be good if Danny Ward is kept but I can see him being released. I think it will be much the same again, maybe with Keifer Moore as the only money signing and then Sanderson on loan and maybe one other

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Originally Posted by jon1959

WOL have done another of their 'short on facts, long on opinion' pieces on what Vincent Tan will do with the club now - against the backdrop of ongoing court cases (Sala fee, Hammam, Isaacs) and his personal wealth dropping due to Covid - with the options of sell, retrench, or spend for promotion all considered by Paul Abandonato.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...roads-18695485

He claims there have been 2 offers to buy the club in recent times - both rejected by Tan on the grounds that they were not right for the future of City (rather than on the size of the offer). He claims Tan has put £165m of his own money into the club over the past 10 years (I assume that is a net figure - although it isn't explicit) and is currently subsidising the club to the tune of £25m per year (again I assume that is the Covid rate of subsidy - although it isn't explicit).

He concludes that Tan is likely to push the boat out again, as he did with Warnock, and spend to give us the best chance of promotion next year. But that is not based on any interviews with Tan, Dalman, Choo or any first hand information. It is based on teeth sucking and tea leaf swirling. It could be right.

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He's going to be right with at least one of the strategies isn't he. As you say, it is short on facts and long on opinions. Most likely is some cut backs to help pay for someone like Moore and a few others. I don't think Tan will step away completely as it doesn't make financial sense.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

He's going to be right with at least one of the strategies isn't he. As you say, it is short on facts and long on opinions. Most likely is some cut backs to help pay for someone like Moore and a few others. I don't think Tan will step away completely as it doesn't make financial sense.

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Owning and subsidising football clubs doesn't make much sense in many respects.

I think tan would spend some money if the circumstances were right to mount a serious challenge.
they aren't right currently, it would be a huge gamble to throw cash at it today.
our recruitment is hit and miss
there are no youngsters coming through
our squad is ageing and many contracts are running down
we might be hit with a transfer ban

if we get into a position where the above points are addressed, then we can think about investing significant money with a realistic chance of it getting us up.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

WOL have done another of their 'short on facts, long on opinion' pieces on what Vincent Tan will do with the club now - against the backdrop of ongoing court cases (Sala fee, Hammam, Isaacs) and his personal wealth dropping due to Covid - with the options of sell, retrench, or spend for promotion all considered by Paul Abandonato.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...roads-18695485

He claims there have been 2 offers to buy the club in recent times - both rejected by Tan on the grounds that they were not right for the future of City (rather than on the size of the offer). He claims Tan has put £165m of his own money into the club over the past 10 years (I assume that is a net figure - although it isn't explicit) and is currently subsidising the club to the tune of £25m per year (again I assume that is the Covid rate of subsidy - although it isn't explicit).

He concludes that Tan is likely to push the boat out again, as he did with Warnock, and spend to give us the best chance of promotion next year. But that is not based on any interviews with Tan, Dalman, Choo or any first hand information. It is based on teeth sucking and tea leaf swirling. It could be right.

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Based on we know how much he has put in including the initial sale price if there was one, I’d love to know how much income the club has generated in his time, basically, is he up or down? If we went up the price of the club jumps to a ridiculous level then back down to whatever is it now again.....

Are we debt free yet?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I think tan would spend some money if the circumstances were right to mount a serious challenge.
they aren't right currently, it would be a huge gamble to throw cash at it today.
our recruitment is hit and miss
there are no youngsters coming through
our squad is ageing and many contracts are running down
we might be hit with a transfer ban

if we get into a position where the above points are addressed, then we can think about investing significant money with a realistic chance of it getting us up.

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Tan isn't going to chuck money at it but also if he lets the situation rot, we aren't going to go up and then he's going to lose more money. It's an interesting position for him to be in.

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Originally Posted by goats

Based on we know how much he has put in including the initial sale price if there was one, I’d love to know how much income the club has generated in his time, basically, is he up or down? If we went up the price of the club jumps to a ridiculous level then back down to whatever is it now again.....

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Surely he's way down isn't he?

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Surely he's way down isn't he?

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Sure he would be, how much revenue do we get each season? Obv more in the PL and with subsequent payments after but it must be a fair wack....we hardly broke the bank on new signings did we? Maybe 80/100 mill? He’d get that if he sold us in the PL....

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Originally Posted by goats

Based on we know how much he has put in including the initial sale price if there was one, I’d love to know how much income the club has generated in his time, basically, is he up or down? If we went up the price of the club jumps to a ridiculous level then back down to whatever is it now again.....

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This is one for Since62.

I can't remember if anyone has ever tried to put the figures together from the point Tan first invested in the club. The figure of £165m quoted by Paul Abandonato appears (it isn't as clear as it should be) to be the cumulative amount he has put into the club since he first became involved, including loans written off and loans converted to equity.

I thought I had seen an interview with Mehmet Dalman in the last year or so where he said Tan had never taken any money out of the club - ever. He does have an asset for all his investment, alongside a number of liabilities or risks. His investment is obviously worth a lot more in the Premier League.

He may get fed up with Cardiff, his other clubs, and football in general. He may be forced to scale back or get out because of the impact of Covid on his other businesses and income streams. But so far there has been no real evidence that he wants to sell. Tan has been very quiet for a long time but I for one would like to see him do another live fans forum (on the club TV) where he can explain his situation and vision for the club.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I can’t see there being much money available and we’ll be stuck with the likes of Flint and Pack on considerable wages ( and Vassells probably). It would be good if Danny Ward is kept but I can see him being released. I think it will be much the same again, maybe with Keifer Moore as the only money signing and then Sanderson on loan and maybe one other

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How can we arrange any new signings with a transfer ban still in place ?

Stick best owner ever

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I can’t see there being much money available and we’ll be stuck with the likes of Flint and Pack on considerable wages ( and Vassells probably). It would be good if Danny Ward is kept but I can see him being released. I think it will be much the same again, maybe with Keifer Moore as the only money signing and then Sanderson on loan and maybe one other

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I'm hoping Warnock comes in for Flint, if only to get him off our wage bill.

I'm also hoping for a couple of better loan signings than Sanderson quality.

Have a feeling harris may go back to his old club for a signing or two, if the price is right

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Originally Posted by DubaiDai

How can we arrange any new signings with a transfer ban still in place ?

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Is a transfer ban in place?

There has been no clarity on this from the EFL, the club or the media - but when we had a thread on this many months ago most posters assumed that the FIFA ban was deferred until the appeal had been heard. The fact that so many press reports (including local press) link us with players but don't mention a transfer ban suggests either that the reporters are clueless (ah....OK) or that there is a general understanding we are not currently operating under a ban.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

I'm hoping Warnock comes in for Flint, if only to get him off our wage bill.

I'm also hoping for a couple of better loan signings than Sanderson quality.

Have a feeling harris may go back to his old club for a signing or two, if the price is right

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Middlesbrough won't have Flint back. They were glad to get rid of him to us

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Is a transfer ban in place?

There has been no clarity on this from the EFL, the club or the media - but when we had a thread on this many months ago most posters assumed that the FIFA ban was deferred until the appeal had been heard. The fact that so many press reports (including local press) link us with players but don't mention a transfer ban suggests either that the reporters are clueless (ah....OK) or that there is a general understanding we are not currently operating under a ban.

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Just to add to this. The transfer ban was attached to the FIFA ruling in December 2019. The club signed three players on loan in January 2020. We didn't make any permanent signings in the January window, but I would have thought any transfer ban would also have stopped loans in?

We need to cut out cloth as much as possible. I'm not saying break even but Tan shouldn't be putting in millions every month. We have to many players in big wages who aren't up to it. Sadly moving them on is a problem.

Slow news day. Business has a sale document should anyone show an interest and club need to decide summer transfer budget. Probably got the article set up to republish each summer a bit like the Coxe to Man City article.

To be fair, he has turned into the best owner you could dream of the last few seasons, club seems as stable as it has ever been in my lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I can’t see there being much money available and we’ll be stuck with the likes of Flint and Pack on considerable wages ( and Vassells probably). It would be good if Danny Ward is kept but I can see him being released. I think it will be much the same again, maybe with Keifer Moore as the only money signing and then Sanderson on loan and maybe one other

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I think that actually reaching the play-offs will have impressed upon Tan that it's worth throwing a few quid at it next season..

You would think we would know if there was a transfer ban actually in place? That would stop all speculation for the next 4-6 weeks but press seem quite happy linking us to various players without mention of any impending ban.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I think that actually reaching the play-offs will have impressed upon Tan that it's worth throwing a few quid at it next season..

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I mean more so than if we had been mid table also rans, but if I was Tan I wouldn't be gambling a load of cash on promotion next year.
We could easily spend 20 or 30 million and not go up. I tihnk he'll wait until we are a much safer bet and then push the boat out when theres a better chance of getting the money back

The world is screwed, who knows when fans will be back.

Can’t see anyone spending much

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I mean more so than if we had been mid table also rans, but if I was Tan I wouldn't be gambling a load of cash on promotion next year.
We could easily spend 20 or 30 million and not go up. I tihnk he'll wait until we are a much safer bet and then push the boat out when theres a better chance of getting the money back

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Even standing still in this environment may put us ahead of some clubs who will be cutting costs because of covid.

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Originally Posted by EastbourneBlue

The world is screwed, who knows when fans will be back.

Can’t see anyone spending much

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I wonder if there are actually any benefits for clubs below the Championship to play to no fans, and generating no revenue, only costs from wages. It's fairly obvious that there won't be paying fans this side of Christmas and it will only take spikes like the ones at Aberdeen and in Lancashire to pull the rugs from under feet. The PL can survive on TV money, possibly the Championship can get by, but below that I can't see much point in actually kicking things off again.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

WOL have done another of their 'short on facts, long on opinion' pieces on what Vincent Tan will do with the club now - against the backdrop of ongoing court cases (Sala fee, Hammam, Isaacs) and his personal wealth dropping due to Covid - with the options of sell, retrench, or spend for promotion all considered by Paul Abandonato.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...roads-18695485

He claims there have been 2 offers to buy the club in recent times - both rejected by Tan on the grounds that they were not right for the future of City (rather than on the size of the offer). He claims Tan has put £165m of his own money into the club over the past 10 years (I assume that is a net figure - although it isn't explicit) and is currently subsidising the club to the tune of £25m per year (again I assume that is the Covid rate of subsidy - although it isn't explicit).

He concludes that Tan is likely to push the boat out again, as he did with Warnock, and spend to give us the best chance of promotion next year. But that is not based on any interviews with Tan, Dalman, Choo or any first hand information. It is based on teeth sucking and tea leaf swirling. It could be right.

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WIGAN

Not withstanding COVID related financial pressures, this season might actually be a good one for Tan to “give it a right go”, with Sheffield Wednesday and Derby County having points deducted, Brentford likely to lose key players and Watford and Bournemouth managerless and also likely to lose players.

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Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw

Not withstanding COVID related financial pressures, this season might actually be a good one for Tan to “give it a right go”, with Sheffield Wednesday and Derby County having points deducted, Brentford likely to lose key players and Watford and Bournemouth managerless and also likely to lose players.

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Fair point and I think Harris' success with no money will probably give Tan a feeling of confidence for the immediate future in playing terms. However I believe he well understands now that to make any success of the Premier we need to spend far far more than he is prepared to do when we get there. I'm not sure whether he is too keen on us maintaining our record of instant relegation either. Maybe he thinks he has taken the club as far as he can and it now needs new owners of the right calibre to take it to the next level and build upon it.

Well in the absence of anyone else and the fact he's appointed who I think is a very good manager in Harris I say stick

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well in the absence of anyone else and the fact he's appointed who I think is a very good manager in Harris I say stick

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It's a 'stick' for me too. Even if we just manage to tread water, that will be seen as a positive. I think a fair few Championship clubs will be offloading players in an effort to stay afloat.
We may not have to spend money on transfer fees, I have a feeling there'll be more decent players who are free agents than normal this year.

With quite a few championship clubs in trouble, could be an ideal time for a well run club to prosper? Is that us these days? We probably have the wealthiest owner in the league do we?

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Originally Posted by goats

With quite a few championship clubs in trouble, could be an ideal time for a well run club to prosper? Is that us these days? We probably have the wealthiest owner in the league do we?

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Nope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...football_clubs

Surely Charlton's owner has a net worth of more than 400K?

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Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five

Surely Charlton's owner has a net worth of more than 400K?

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That is odd, basically someone with a 2 bed house and has paid off their mortgage in the Charlton area has a net worth of that?

Also if you follow the reference in the wikipedia page it doesn't mention that guy at all, but talks about some Emerati investors.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Nope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...football_clubs

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Tan owns more than 51% surely.

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Originally Posted by chris lee

To be fair, he has turned into the best owner you could dream of the last few seasons, club seems as stable as it has ever been in my lifetime.

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agreed

He is the best owner i have every known, sure he made a mistake, but he went along way to repair that and must have felt like he lost a bit of face over it all

I think Keiffer Moore would be a good signing at the sort of price that has been quoted recently, but I'm not sure what there is in his career record so far to suggest that he is someone who will score twenty plus goals for a side challenging for promotion to the Premier League?

Apart from that, there doesn't seem much point commenting on an article which can only be speculative in nature.

The next few weeks are going to be very interesting in terms of how much spending there will be in the transfer window. I'm guessing that there will be bargains to be had as better players than normal become available in the cheap/free transfer market -apart from a few gems brought in by Neil Warnock and Joe Bennett by Paul Trollope, this isn't a market we've done well in lately and it's hard to draw many conclusions about Neil Harris yet based on what he did in the market in January.