Crystal Palace - I suppose our youth development system must be envied by some club, somewhere, but I'll be surprised if there are two of them.
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Crystal Palace - I suppose our youth development system must be envied by some club, somewhere, but I'll be surprised if there are two of them.
He very nearly joined Swansea, and was keen to do so as it was felt the pathway into the first team was a good one.A contract was offered, but was withdrawn due to a new chairman coming in(I wasn’t aware of this) and putting a block on any new contracts being handed out, hopefully this applies to the first team as well!
He had a late call up to Wales u21’s, although didn’t get any game time, and when he came back to the Swansea news, decided to accept an offer from Palace. This offer came about after him catching the eye for the City in a few games over the last few years against them.I would have loved him to make it at the City, but really hope it works out for him with Palace.
There is a bit of an issue with our fan here though in that many of them bemoan the number of youngsters we've let go only for them to go on and do well. Unfortunately some of the same fans are unwilling to put up with some inconsistent performances from youngsters while they get acclimatised to first team duties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyllisStant
how many would get in our team we have let go by mistake.
Maybe Ajayi
It's partly a problem of circumstance, there haven't been too many seasons where we weren't important things to play for that they probably didn't want to risk some inconsistent performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyllisStant
Having said that there were definitely occasions under russell slade when we didn't look like going up or down in a million years that we could have brought a few youngsters on. I'm specifically thinking about the last couple of meaningless games of the 14/15 season where we brought a 58 year old Danny Gabbidon on while we had young prospect Semi Ajayi on the bench.
It's slightly analogous to running R&D projects (or perhaps preventative maintenance) in that there is always something else to do that is more important at the time, but unless you make the time to do it you'll suddenly find you've got nothing coming in the pipeline (or all your equipment is broken).
Ajayi is the obvious one, but who knows which other players could have developed into better players if they were given some game timeQuote:
Originally Posted by 2b2bdoo
Jarrod Bowen was talking in the Daily Mail I think it was about how he cried when City turned him down after a trial. You look at someone like Tom Lockyer who has been signed by another Championship team and has never let Wales down when selected - are we supposed to believe that he is nowhere near good enough for us today? Would he have developed quicker if he stayed and been given a chance at an early age?
Josh Magennis is a ex Academy player who now plays for Northern Ireland!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Bowen had trials all over, there will be lots of stories like this. It must be tough to judge someone over a week or so, especially when they'll probably have to let someone else go to make room permanently. Bowen really only made an impact at Hull when was 21+, quite a late bloomer! Tom Lockyer has done terrifically well to come from the conference to the Wales side but it's been a long road back for him, 328 games! He needed that and he wouldn't have got that time here, we've been promoted twice since then, it's our fault for not kicking on. Sheffield Wednesday shouldn't beat themselves up for Vardy going at 16 and we should be looking to give our long lads chances but there will always be players that make you look stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
That's one we got right :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianto13
Fair play to Ardley for turning him into a striker though! Made a good career for himself.
This list is not a complete one, but I'd say Andy Hughes of Preston is another player who would be good enough for our squad;-
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/card...0/art/0/plus/1
Judging from that list, we should be more concerned about Swansea getting players like Cabango who are from Cardiff! Not too many players we regret letting go!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
It's a very worrying sign when our better academy players leave because they feel there is no pathway to the first team (or haven't been for many years until hopefully this season)/
Good luck to him, I hope he does well there and gets a chance in the first team.
This seems more than a player just being released by the club and then finding his way back up the divisions. Questions need to be asked if promising players are being freed "upwards".
It's a good point you make about important games and things at stake. It would have even been nice to see one or two on the bench and if we're in control of a game - give them a little exposure. Ultimately they will never be good enough for the first team if they never play in it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Good post, balanced. I think that it's obvious that our youth programme has been failing for years and i'd say that one of the biggest problems associated with that is the last three managers. I'll give Malky a pass on this subject as he was getting us promoted to the Premier league and we don't know what his intentions may have been if we'd been relegated under him, although he did give Declan john a pop at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa
The other problem is the way we play. Young developing players are never going to be coached in a way that complimented our style of play under Slade or Warnock, that's the clubs fault, not the respective managers, so how can those managers be expected to trust young players who have been drilled to play the 'right' way?
A severe lack of continuity, short termism by our owner and his stooges have inadvertently cost us players who may have developed, although i do get your point that it isn't completely one way, it is difficult to make a judgement on players, even more so with modern coaching as there doesn't seem to be that many flaws in these young players game. On the flip side, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of assertiveness or of the cuff ability either.
Harris seems to be acknowledging youth andi think that he may be brave enough to give them a chance.
Surely if Malky gets a pass due to promotion so does NW, he picked up a club very low down and dragged it into the Premiership within a relatively quick period of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
There's not a lot in that list that would give sleepless nights to the person who released them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa
To be fair to City, they did offer Spence a contract, but, like one or two others, for example Harry Pinchard who is, seemingly, on trial at Man City, decided to try his luck elsewhere. To be honest, I don't blame Spence in the slightest. At the end of the 16/17 season he was supposed to be a substitute for the first team at Huddersfield as a 16 year old, but there was, reportedly, an insurance problem. Since then, he, first, broke into the Under 23s and was doing well, then, apparently at Craig Bellamy's insistence, spent a season in the Under 18s in which he scored thirty times. He was injured for much of the next season, but continued to score regularly for the Under 18s when he came back. Loan moves to play for a senior side are supposed to be a big step forward in a youngster's development, yet when he came back from Barry last season, he barely played again for the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
Spence went from being close to making a first team debut at just sixteen to a bit of a non entity at Cardiff at nineteen and a half, granted, he wasn't at his best when he came back from his injury, but the club seemed to rate him less as he moved toward the end of his contract - it seems they wanted him to stay, but they had a funny way of showing it during his last two seasons with us.
I would say that the policy under Malky for early round Cup ties was to pack the side with youngsters. This led to some embarrassing losses, but I would say that Declan John's performance in the loss at Macclesfield in 2012 was a big factor in the manager having enough faith in him to pick him at West Ham in our first ever Premier League game - Joe Ralls was scoring in his league debut weeks after playing in an early round League Cup tie and started in the Semi Final first leg a few months later.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Warnock did give a league debut to Mark Harris in a meaningless wnd of season encounter and there were some youngsters given a chance in cup games, but there was never the pathway into the first team in league games that there was with Mackay.
Ole and Trollope weren't really here long enough to get an idea of what they would have been like with youngsters, but my guess is that they would have been quite sympathetic, as for Russell Slade, he was a disaster when it came to youth development.
Well, when you look at the money we spent on, say, Flint and Cunningham (whose resale value must be a small fraction of the £10 million or so we paid for them), keeping Hughes and Lockyer, or even Demi Oshilaja, seems a pretty good option to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
We released Hughes in 2008 and Lockyer in 2011. We can't hang on to every player who comes through the academy just in case they turn out to be good enough to be a squad player for us 10 years later.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Hrughes has been a Championship player for quite a bit of that time and I see you ignore my point about the money we would have saved. The line of argument from those defending the club's abysmal record in this part of the game seems to have developed into almost congratulating them for not taking a punt on youth because our Academy players are not good enough, yet all of these players were considered worth taking a punt on at one time. If it is correct that we've not had good enough youngsters, what does that say about City's recruitment? Were either hopeless at spottingyoung talent, hopeless at developing young talent or, most likely, a mixture of the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy
Certain fans seem obsessed with having an abundance of senior players at the club, for instance you see people saying we need another winger despite us already having 4 in the first team squad, that's not how a sustainable or well run club operates. We should be using the youth team as the backups, not signing journeymen as coverQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Hughes has played two seasons in the Championship and Lockyer has played one for a club that got relegated. They were both playing in League Two when we were in the Premier League in 2013/14, but you think that we should have kept them here on the off chance that they would be good enough for us one day?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Nobody is claiming that we have done a good job of developing young players over the last decade, but I think that you significantly underestimate how good a young player has to be to succeed at Championship level or above. You talked up Cameron Coxe for a long time based on his performances in age-group football and now he's playing for Solihull Moors.
I'm saying that there are players we let go for nothing who have proved themselves at Championship level and, in Lockyer's case, at international level who could have done a job for us and may have performed that bit better because they were at their home town club.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy
To hear some on here talk you'd think the jump from youth football into the Championship is an enormous chasm, it's not if we are talking about dipping a youngster into the side for a game or two when there's an injury or suspension because they will get through on energy and Adrenalin, then, hopefully, they can come in again for a short spell with more confidence and gradually the occasional games turn into more extended runs and you eventually get a first team regular.
There are people saying we should keep Etheridge and Cunningham as back ups, well players of their age and experience do not come cheap and, especially in the current climate, it's unrealistic to have a squad containing a rump of experienced and expensive players who are second choices. Having Smithies and Day as senior keepers with Ratcliffe as a back up seems fine to me, while Bennett backed up by Bagan would do as well.
As for Cameron Coxe, he did okay when he was first given his chance, but didn't do himself any favours last season in the two matches with Carlisle. That said, right back is a position where we are short of options and the decision to let him go looks an odd one now - I'll not make any daft predictions about him coming back to play against us as a Premier League player, but, if his head is right, he'll prove himself to be better than National League level,
See Dion SandersonQuote:
Originally Posted by PhyllisStant
Ten years after we released them, during which time we've been promoted to the Premier League twice and they have had to work their way up from non-League football. What about all the other players that we've released over that period? Should we have kept them on as well just in case they came good?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
The jump from youth football to the Championship is an enormous chasm. That's way so few young players make it successfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Is Bagan ready to make the step up? He's just turned 19 and was playing in the National League last season. I think he needs a loan to a club in League One or League Two to further his development.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I don't think it was an odd decision to release Coxe. He's going to be 22 in December and he's clearly not good enough to play first-team football for us at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
We get the majority of these decisions right. Even the ones who could get into our team today, which isn't many, have had to go away and play a fair bit of football lower down the pyramid first.
Palace have recently got academy 1 status, it may be that affords you more funds and space to keep on players or bring in players other clubs wouldn't.
Maybe he will go on and become fantastic and we will regret it but in terms of looking at those we have previously let go it seems that's not common.
Best of luck to him, must be over the moon, let's hope he is one of the ones we regret.
We signed a young lad who Blackburn academy let go last week so this sort of thing isn't uncommon. Funnily enough a few comments at the time asked why we were signing Blackburn rejects.
I don't think anyone's saying that we should have kids in the first team every single week - but I'd be pleased if we at least see a pathway to the first team for our talented youngsters - at the moment it isn't really much wonder some are deciding to leave.
Take our wingers for example - last season we had 4 senior wingers - hoilett, NML, Murphy and Whyte - 3 of whom were with us in the premier league, if we had kept it to 2 or 3 senior wingers and 1 or 2 youngsters getting game time then that would be more sustainable IMO. You're saving on wages and transfer fees - so the senior pros you retain can be better, and if you develop a kid into a championship or higher level player you save even more or potentially get a windfall by selling to a bigger club.
last season if we had a young left winger then he'd have had to get past hoilett and murphy to get any game time - if one of them picked up a knock then the other one would be very pissed off if a kid gets game time ahead of them, so realistically there isn't a pathway.
We have the same situation at left back, with bennett and cunningham - both very good at this level, probably paid accordingly and an insurmountable barrier to development. All we are doing there is guaranteeing that there is significant chunks of the wage budget that will be spent on players to warm the bench each season.
Same situation in between the sticks - Etheridge and Smithies are top keepers at this level, Day is an adequate understudy, how do we bring through kid with those 3 here?
Same situation in central midfield - Ralls, Vaulks, Bacuna, Pack - all very similar senior pros on senior pro wages, if we only had 3 of them and a promising youngster wouldn't that be better?
Same situation in central defence - Morrisson, Bamba, Flint, Nelson - we are basically guaranteeing that half of our age budget for centrebacks isn't used each game.
Yes we've been promoted twice in the last decade, but each time it hasn't left us any stronger than we were before. A sustainable approach to bringing talent through should mean we are able to build each year rather than go back to square one every couple of seasons.
I honestly don't get why people are defending the club here.
Let's start with what is the point of having an Academy? I won't go on for ages giving my answer to that question, I'll just say that it certainly isn't to bring about the situation which has existed at Cardiff City for the best part of ten years. In fact, based on the number of first team players the Academy has brought through and how much money it has raised through transfer sales lately, we may as well not have one - there's a strong case for arguing that we may as well just have had a first team squad for the last few years given the amount of use the reserve/development and youth teams have been for the club - how can people say the club are getting decisions right when the decision to have development teams is arguable, we don't produce our own players and we seldom make a profit in the transfer market?
Can I ask how on earth does a young player ever make it into their club's first these days? To read this thread, you'd think they may as well forget it until they are about 24 because they could never cope with the huge step up into the Championship. Are modern day standards so much higher than they were back in the days when it was an oddity not to have at least one locally produced player in the City team, because I've not noticed that much difference.
Managers have been indulged at City in that they have always been given the option of going out and getting a ready made first teamer when a gap appears in it, it's a short term policy which is counter productive in the end. This has led to a position whereby former City youngsters are dismissed as being not good enough by supporters, many of whom have never seen them play in their lives. The Sion Spence's, Cameron Coxes etc who signed their first pro deals were different to the ones they are now and were unlucky to have been around in a time when they could forget about playing in a meaningful league game for the club for a good few years, whereas many of them would have done so if they had been around a decade or two earlier and it seems that there are many supporters who are happy afor this farce to continue.
I think this short termism can probably be directly attributed to the lack of a director of football at the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
the average tenure of a manager in the football league is about 18 months, so unless you have some dramatic success by bringing through kids straight away then in doing so you're basically only helping your successor.
i must say you are passionate about developing young players like me bob and agree with most of your points but disagree about the standards argument . the standards to make it as a pro at the top level are far greater than any other time in the history of the game
I keep asking myself where is the game going at top level in say 10 years time ?
There's a few things I'd say to try and justify myself with standards. First, you mention the "top level", I would say City have never been at what I would call the top level of the game (I accept others would say that would equate to the Premier League and I'm certainly not going to say they're wrong). However, we're second tier and I can remember a lot of people saying, rightly in my view, that the standard in last season's Championship was not that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
I'm not saying standards are not higher these days, my argument is that it's not by as much as many would argue. Players are getting ever fitter and advances in science and technology have made them better prepared in terms of diet and conditioning. Also, the game is more technical these days, but that doesn't mean that players from previous eras would necessarily compare poorly in that department with their modern day counterparts, more that they were less encouraged to use their skills in their day.
It's hard to quantify, but maybe it would be fair to say that things have moved by a division, in that your average youngster breaking into a Premier League club ten years ago would now have to settle for doing that in the Championship and one in the second tier would now find themselves in the third and so on, but does that justify the complete change of approach at Cardiff compared to what we saw in the early years of the Academy when we had, off the top of my head, five Welsh internationals come through the ranks at the club - four of whom have played in the Premier League I believe? How many of Aaron Ramsey (16), Joe Ledley (17), Chris Gunter, (17), Darcy Blake (17) and Adam Matthews (17) would have made their debuts for us at the age shown in brackets now and I'd say that all of them with the possible exception of Blake have proved that they would be able to get by at Championship level, in the modern game.
Fair points. The one time we did anything like what you talk about was with the appointment of Paul Trollope and the whole way "Cardiff way" thing was ditched after two months of poor results for the first team. It would have needed some bravery to have stuck with the Cardiff way concept because the emphasis is so much on the senior team and you could be top of the Development and Academy Leagues but, understandably, the club would be seen as being in crisis if the first team were at the bottom of their table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
I seem to remember an article written by Craig Bellamy stating this to be a problem within the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
The players we sign and the style we play (extremely direct) was always at odds with the way the youngsters were coached (possession). Given that obvious disparity you have to lay the blame at the owners door (or Choo).
Maybe that is a big reason why we struggle to bring players through
Short termism is due to the fact that managers know their team must do well to keep their jobs so it is easier for them to get a ready made player rather than blood people from the Academy. This is a sad fact of life in modern day football but I agree that our Academy is nothing much more than a breeding ground for other clubs and that it represents poor value for money in the present climate.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Yes I was really disappointed when it didn't work out with Trollope, the club seemed to be making a lot of the right kind of noises.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
To bring Warnock in was a dramatic improvement in the short term, but on the longer term? Our squad is a mess. And for all of the premier league money we've had in between you could argue that it's weaker than seasons gone by.
I think trollope was a little unlucky in that we had injuries in key positions (wingbacks) for the system he wanted to play, but it isn't a surprise he got the sack. I don't think we would have ultimately gone down though.
We would almost certainly not have gone up either, but if we had been more progressive at other things then we might actually have ended up in a better position than we find ourselves today.
I'd agree with all of that :thumbup:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk