Harris went for it by putting Glatzel and Moore up front together....

but handed the game to Wednesday as Bannan simply just took over :yikes:

For half and hour. It backfired, but I think at home we should have started with two up front.

We've not had two central midfielders who would enable us to play 4-4-2 for ages and our results when we play three at the back are crap - I think we're stuck with playing with just one striker.

I would be interested to see how many crosses we get into the box that aren't set pieces.

For a team that plays with wingers we should be seeing the merits of going with two out and out wingers bit I think our crosses into the box you could count on one hand, if that.

I think a change in approach is needed if we are playing with wingers who simply do not put in any decent crosses for our focal point in Moore.

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Originally Posted by Chris Pontprennau Blues

but handed the game to Wednesday as Bannan simply just took over :yikes:

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I cannot think of another time we’ve ever played with two target men up front. Nugent and Jon Williams - did that happen??

Or any other team really. Sutton and Shearer??

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Originally Posted by EastbourneBlue

I cannot think of another time we’ve ever played with two target men up front. Nugent and Jon Williams - did that happen??

Or any other team really. Sutton and Shearer??

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Toshack and Clarke.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

We've not had two central midfielders who would enable us to play 4-4-2 for ages and our results when we play three at the back are crap - I think we're stuck with playing with just one striker.

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Absolutely. Could you imagine Ralls and Bacuna at our central pairing, against players who possess movement and are drilled in moving the ball quickly? we'd be ****ed. The problem is that we haven't invested in a couple of players who can get on the ball and do things with pace, our midfield are so slow in thought that it's unbelievable, it's been a problem for years. They line up flat, take that extra touch and wont carry the ball into advanced positions, it's as much a culture at the club as it is with the players at our disposal.

Harris and his tactics have really pissed me off today, he is as much to blame as the players, got it massively wrong. Monk did a job on him by half time and there was no reply, no invention, no thought, just lobbed two up front in order to occupy that extra man that was easily pushing into that midfield area and stopping us from building anything. How long did it take for him to work that out?

Harris could easily have got the defenders a bit further up the pitch as well as the midfield, but no, he doesn't like deviating from the usual, unless we're in the shit. I've backed him so far, although if that kind of shit continues then i wont support him. People may say that it's one game, it's not that for me, it's the performance and the tactics that made it a piece of piss for Wednesday, that's not acceptable in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I would be interested to see how many crosses we get into the box that aren't set pieces.

For a team that plays with wingers we should be seeing the merits of going with two out and out wingers bit I think our crosses into the box you could count on one hand, if that.

I think a change in approach is needed if we are playing with wingers who simply do not put in any decent crosses for our focal point in Moore.

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There's a problem, if we play with wingers and the opposition sit off our midfield three then we've got a chance, as the only supply line for our wide men is from the midfield in advanced areas. If the opposition do what Monk did today, and decide to squeeze our middle three, then no supply, the wingers start to become frustrated, the come inside looking for the ball (it's only natural) and the pitch narrows, fantastic for the opposition back four as they only have one man to mark, sort of gives their defenders the green light to push into midfield.

"our midfield are so slow in thought that it's unbelievable, it's been a problem for years. They line up flat, take that extra touch and wont carry the ball into advanced positions, it's as much a culture at the club as it is with the players at our disposal."

That sums it up....Bannan totally controlled midfield...a nasty bugger but.....effective. Our midfield simply is not creative or destructive enough.

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Originally Posted by Maurice Swan

"our midfield are so slow in thought that it's unbelievable, it's been a problem for years. They line up flat, take that extra touch and wont carry the ball into advanced positions, it's as much a culture at the club as it is with the players at our disposal."

That sums it up....Bannan totally controlled midfield...a nasty bugger but.....effective. Our midfield simply is not creative or destructive enough.

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Slow in every respect.

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Originally Posted by NottinghamBlue

Toshack and Clarke.

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Dear God !!

That Barry Bannan is alright ain't he.

Too old for us though.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

We've not had two central midfielders who would enable us to play 4-4-2 for ages and our results when we play three at the back are crap - I think we're stuck with playing with just one striker.

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Agree

If our central midfield as a three can't at least match the opposing two or three midfielders then they're simply not up to it. We all have our opinion on that.

For me we have a lot of midfield players who are hovering around average midfield standard in this league but they are that and little more. The three we started with earlier aren't going to beat a man or create a great deal. We turn time and again to Tomlin to do this but what he does produce is very inconsistent and he is not fit enough to pick every week.
The way we usually set up the onus is on your wingers to create something and put balls into the box for Moore. If they are not at it, as they weren't today and the jury is still out on Ojo for me, then the system falls down.

Throw in a bad midfield pass that led directly to the first goal and losing not one but three personal duals to concede the second goal then we're on a hiding to nothing. Worrying signs indeed.
For me we have needed somebody, other than Tomlin who has an eye for a pass and can produce that moment of quality for some time but have failed to address this. We also persist with wingers who for me don't produce enough crosses and this is another worry.

For me the problem is Ralls.

I like him but he just doesn’t have the pace needed

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

For me the problem is Ralls.

I like him but he just doesn’t have the pace needed

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The other two from that midfield trio aren't world beaters either though if we're being honest.
Bacuna was at fault for the first goal and can't blame anybody else. He managed to misplace a pass under little or no pressure. To think we bought him to do a job in the Premier League is mystifying.
If I was pressed on Vaulks I would say I thought he had more about him than he is showing for us. The three are all about the same standard and don't really have the pace or power to beat a man and put a team on the backfoot. Their usual choice is a simple pass or back to the keeper.

For me you can't have too many of these nuts and bolts type of players in the team. You need them but for me we've got way too many midfielders who play the ball simple and sit in the middle while doing little else.
We need more, even if it is to free up space for others around them. Let's just say I can't have imagined Wednesday were in too much of a panic having seen any of those mentioned above getting the ball in front of them.

I also think we've been found out at set pieces at both ends of the pitch.

We as fans know what is going to happen so it isn't a surprise that other teams have worked it out.

Long throw, crowd out Morrison. Job done.

Corner, man to man on Morrison and Nelson and that's pretty much sorted that out too. Moore should add some more in that respect but I think we've become overly reliant on set pieces.

If we do not evolve going forward then we will suffer. That today was beyond bad. We created nothing. Moore must think what the hell he's chosen to come into.
The most worrying thing for me was the second goal though. Players who you wouldn't expect to be beaten in personal duals and if it isn't just a bad day at the office then we've got big problems.

We miss Gunnarsson, someone who lead from midfield. Apart from the two seasons in the Championship with Malky, our centre midfield has generally been a problem. I suggested pre season that it needed changing and that was one of the priorities. Under Warnock, centre midfield didn't matter too much, but we've not had much creativity in the middle for many years, arguably since McPhail was at his prime.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

We miss Gunnarsson, someone who lead from midfield. Apart from the two seasons in the Championship with Malky, our centre midfield has generally been a problem. I suggested pre season that it needed changing and that was one of the priorities. Under Warnock, centre midfield didn't matter too much, but we've not had much creativity in the middle for many years, arguably since McPhail was at his prime.

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Definitely.
It has needed investment in that area for some time. Sadly most of what has been spent there has seen midfielders come in that are similar to what we already have.

Winning the ball and getting it out wide quickly worked to a certain extent but we have now sacked what I believe to be our best winger in Mendez-Laing although he loved to cut inside too(they all do). Maybe our wingers are shown the inside because it sends them into traffic in the hope they get crowded out. All I know is that the wingers we have left are not as effective as they once were for us. Can anybody name one of our wingers that consistently beats their man or cuts inside and gets a cross into the box?

If they've stopped being effective then we need to be asking more of or buying players who can offer more through the middle and play more conventional right and left midfielders.

For me our out and out wingers stopped producing what you expect from out and out wingers a long time ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

We miss Gunnarsson, someone who lead from midfield. Apart from the two seasons in the Championship with Malky, our centre midfield has generally been a problem. I suggested pre season that it needed changing and that was one of the priorities. Under Warnock, centre midfield didn't matter too much, but we've not had much creativity in the middle for many years, arguably since McPhail was at his prime.

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Spot on

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

Definitely.
It has needed investment in that area for some time. Sadly most of what has been spent there has seen midfielders come in that are similar to what we already have.

Winning the ball and getting it out wide quickly worked to a certain extent but we have now sacked what I believe to be our best winger in Mendez-Laing although he loved to cut inside too(they all do). Maybe our wingers are shown the inside because it sends them into traffic in the hope they get crowded out. All I know is that the wingers we have left are not as effective as they once were for us. Can anybody name one of our wingers that consistently beats their man or cuts inside and gets a cross into the box?

If they've stopped being effective then we need to be asking more of or buying players who can offer more through the middle and play more conventional right and left midfielders.

For me our out and out wingers stopped producing what you expect from out and out wingers a long time ago.

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A part of the problem is playing, say, a right footer on the left and vice versa. Sometimes it works well in terms of getting a winger into position to score goals - Mendez-Laing was someone who was far happier on the left, Hoilett scored lots of fantastic goals on his right foot from the left and I remember Paul Parry having a great run when out on the right, but they stop being productive in terms of crosses as a result.

3 in centre midfield is now the norm, a decade ago it wasn't. Now I think managers fear not matching up numbers in there. Many say that the standard of the Championship isn't what it was 10 years ago. I just think we've got bogged down with too many centre midfielders on the pitch, not enough forwards and games become more of a battle than about playing football.

It predictably would have and Harris would have realised that but we weren't getting anywhere with just Moore up top either. In the end we had Tomlin, Moore and glatzel on the pitch and we created nothing.

By the end of the match I don't think any formation or combination would have worked, we just lacked the ability to do any of the basics. Could be one of those matches, we had a few last season, could be something deeper, we will find out soon enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

We've not had two central midfielders who would enable us to play 4-4-2 for ages and our results when we play three at the back are crap - I think we're stuck with playing with just one striker.

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I don't think many clubs have two central midfielders that would enable them to play 4-4-2 with two wingers.

We aren't built to play possession football, Wednesday stood off and we had no answer. The gaps between the players were too big so we were routinely playing 15 yard passes which were easy to read for the Wednesday defence. We always played straight into feet rather than in front of the man so there was no momentum.

Why on earth we had a target man on with wingers who cut inside each time is beyond me. Surely when you have a player like Moore who wants early crosses you play with at least one out and out winger who'll put the ball into the box? Ralls as an advanced midfielder it doesn't work and never has worked, I don't see why he persists. We'd be better off with an academy player in the role and putting Ralls back into the role he's most effective in. Vaulks didn't do much whilst Bacuna proved there's always a mistake in him, he did the same against Blackburn and West Brom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maurice Swan

"our midfield are so slow in thought that it's unbelievable, it's been a problem for years. They line up flat, take that extra touch and wont carry the ball into advanced positions, it's as much a culture at the club as it is with the players at our disposal."

That sums it up....Bannan totally controlled midfield...a nasty bugger but.....effective. Our midfield simply is not creative or destructive enough.

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In simplistic terms, we haven't had a 'real' footballer in midfield since Whitts, God rest his soul, left the club.

As has been already mentioned, our midfield comprises of bang average footballers. That said, given the right tactics, motivation and a large dollop of confidence, they are able to compete and over-perform in the same manner as they did in last season's run-in.

Had to read the WOL comment several times - in bewilderment....
"Teams now know Cardiff are a dangerous attacking prospect..."

huh???

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I also think we've been found out at set pieces at both ends of the pitch.

We as fans know what is going to happen so it isn't a surprise that other teams have worked it out.

Long throw, crowd out Morrison. Job done.

Corner, man to man on Morrison and Nelson and that's pretty much sorted that out too. Moore should add some more in that respect but I think we've become overly reliant on set pieces.

If we do not evolve going forward then we will suffer. That today was beyond bad. We created nothing. Moore must think what the hell he's chosen to come into.
The most worrying thing for me was the second goal though. Players who you wouldn't expect to be beaten in personal duals and if it isn't just a bad day at the office then we've got big problems.

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Have a look at Bennett for that second goal, marking thin air! I WOULD expect him to get beaten in personal duals, he has a habit of not marking his man tightly enough.

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Originally Posted by City123

We aren't built to play possession football, Wednesday stood off and we had no answer. The gaps between the players were too big so we were routinely playing 15 yard passes which were easy to read for the Wednesday defence. We always played straight into feet rather than in front of the man so there was no momentum.

Why on earth we had a target man on with wingers who cut inside each time is beyond me. Surely when you have a player like Moore who wants early crosses you play with at least one out and out winger who'll put the ball into the box? Ralls as an advanced midfielder it doesn't work and never has worked, I don't see why he persists. We'd be better off with an academy player in the role and putting Ralls back into the role he's most effective in. Vaulks didn't do much whilst Bacuna proved there's always a mistake in him, he did the same against Blackburn and West Brom

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He's got this worrying tendancy to hit long, crossfield passes, with his head seemingly down and also under-hitting them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maurice Swan

Had to read the WOL comment several times - in bewilderment....
"Teams now know Cardiff are a dangerous attacking prospect..."

huh???

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Not based on the last few weeks - but last season we were (I think) 4th highest scorers in the Championship and have since added Moore - so it should be a sound comment.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Not based on the last few weeks - but last season we were (I think) 4th highest scorers in the Championship and have since added Moore - so it should be a sound comment.

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Sure it’s not that Captain Tom Moore we’ve added:shrug:

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Sure it’s not that Captain Tom Moore we’ve added:shrug:

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I think he was on Stoke's target list. They plan to zimmer frame to promotion!