A continuation of our overall league history post

Including this season, we have spent 51% of our league history in the second tier of English football. To say this is where we arguably belong is probably an understatement. Only Barnsley, Hull, Leicester and Fulham have spent a greater ratio of their league campaigns in this division (Barnsley have spent 69% of their existence in the second tier).

43 sides have spent a greater percentage of their seasons in the top flight than us, 41 have spent more seasons in total.

69% of our league seasons have been in the top two divisions. That's a better record than all bar 38 clubs. It may be of some surprise to learn that we've spent more time in the top two flights than Crystal Palace, Bristol City, Watford and Brighton.

Only 8 sides have never played outside the top two divisions. They are
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea
Manchester United
Newcastle United
West Ham United

The sides who have spent more time than us in the top 2 divisions is as follows:

Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea
Manchester United
Manchester City
Newcastle United
Sunderland
West Bromwich Albion
West Ham United
Bolton Wanderers
Blackburn Rovers
Sheffield Wednesday
Middlesbrough
Stoke City
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Derby County
Sheffield United
Wimbledon
Leeds United
Birmingham City
Burnley
Nottingham Forest
Southampton
Leicester City
Preston North End
Coventry City
Portsmouth
Ipswich Town
Huddersfield Town
Charlton Athletic
Norwich City
Fulham
Notts County
Blackpool
Queens Park Rangers
Crystal Palace
Bury
Wigan Athletic

Wigan surprises me, but not Bury or Notts County, due to the early years of football.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Wigan surprises me, but not Bury or Notts County, due to the early years of football.

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Wigan didn’t enter the Football League until the 70s though. So the stats done percentage wise are a little bit misleading as up until then they were in the Northern League.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Wigan didn’t enter the Football League until the 70s though. So the stats done percentage wise are a little bit misleading as up until then they were in the Northern League.

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Wigan's first game in the league was against Reading..away...only know that because a few of us were at Reading 78..The Jam..Sham..Quo..and a bunch of West Ham skinheads invited us to jump the turnstiles and steam into the ' northern ***** '...but we couldn't find them!..ended 0.0

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Including this season, we have spent 51% of our league history in the second tier of English football. To say this is where we arguably belong is probably an understatement. Only Barnsley, Hull, Leicester and Fulham have spent a greater ratio of their league campaigns in this division (Barnsley have spent 69% of their existence in the second tier).

43 sides have spent a greater percentage of their seasons in the top flight than us, 41 have spent more seasons in total.

69% of our league seasons have been in the top two divisions. That's a better record than all bar 38 clubs. It may be of some surprise to learn that we've spent more time in the top two flights than Crystal Palace, Bristol City, Watford and Brighton.

Only 8 sides have never played outside the top two divisions. They are
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea
Manchester United
Newcastle United
West Ham United

The sides who have spent more time than us in the top 2 divisions is as follows:

Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea
Manchester United
Manchester City
Newcastle United
Sunderland
West Bromwich Albion
West Ham United
Bolton Wanderers
Blackburn Rovers
Sheffield Wednesday
Middlesbrough
Stoke City
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Derby County
Sheffield United
Wimbledon
Leeds United
Birmingham City
Burnley
Nottingham Forest
Southampton
Leicester City
Preston North End
Coventry City
Portsmouth
Ipswich Town
Huddersfield Town
Charlton Athletic
Norwich City
Fulham
Notts County
Blackpool
Queens Park Rangers
Crystal Palace
Bury
Wigan Athletic

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A hundred years ago, Cardiff was, arguably, at its most powerful and influential as it was still a thriving port on the back of all that exporting of coal and, from this distance, it's surprising that a place of such importance only made it into the Football League just as Cardiff's status was beginning to decline in the run up to the Depression and General Strike,

My guess is that Cardiff City's place in lists like Eric's would be a fair bit higher if we'd, say, joined the Football League at the time Riverside FC came about in 1899.

I would argue that the first fifty years of City's existence in the Football League is more successful in terms of major trophies contested and time spent in the top flight than the second one, despite the city and surrounding areas being in something of a decline between 1920 and 1970. Okay, the partial recovery of the city in particular since 1970 has not restored it to its former glories, but its football and rugby clubs have still under achieved in the past half a century when it comes to matching the prosperity and status of the city they represent.

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Originally Posted by kendoddsdadsdogsdead

Wigan's first game in the league was against Reading..away...only know that because a few of us were at Reading 78..The Jam..Sham..Quo..and a bunch of West Ham skinheads invited us to jump the turnstiles and steam into the ' northern ***** '...but we couldn't find them!..ended 0.0

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Cuddling up with West ‘Am.

Shame on you, shame on you!:biggrin:

Please tell me you didn’t make the effort to see the Quo?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Including this season, we have spent 51% of our league history in the second tier of English football. To say this is where we arguably belong is probably an understatement. Only Barnsley, Hull, Leicester and Fulham have spent a greater ratio of their league campaigns in this division (Barnsley have spent 69% of their existence in the second tier).

43 sides have spent a greater percentage of their seasons in the top flight than us, 41 have spent more seasons in total.

69% of our league seasons have been in the top two divisions. That's a better record than all bar 38 clubs. It may be of some surprise to learn that we've spent more time in the top two flights than Crystal Palace, Bristol City, Watford and Brighton.

Only 8 sides have never played outside the top two divisions. They are
Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea
Manchester United
Newcastle United
West Ham United

The sides who have spent more time than us in the top 2 divisions is as follows:

Everton
Liverpool
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea
Manchester United
Manchester City
Newcastle United
Sunderland
West Bromwich Albion
West Ham United
Bolton Wanderers
Blackburn Rovers
Sheffield Wednesday
Middlesbrough
Stoke City
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Derby County
Sheffield United
Wimbledon
Leeds United
Birmingham City
Burnley
Nottingham Forest
Southampton
Leicester City
Preston North End
Coventry City
Portsmouth
Ipswich Town
Huddersfield Town
Charlton Athletic
Norwich City
Fulham
Notts County
Blackpool
Queens Park Rangers
Crystal Palace
Bury
Wigan Athletic

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I’ve just noticed Wimbledon on the list. Also didn’t join the league until the 70s. Now called Milton Keynes.

I’m calling a stewards enquiry into them too.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Cuddling up with West ‘Am.

Shame on you, shame on you!:biggrin:

Please tell me you didn’t make the effort to see the Quo?

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...Jordi!..didn't have you as a Quo snob..did you join the Phil Collins snob group as well?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Wigan didn’t enter the Football League until the 70s though. So the stats done percentage wise are a little bit misleading as up until then they were in the Northern League.

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yes of course, maths isn't my strong point :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Wigan didn’t enter the Football League until the 70s though. So the stats done percentage wise are a little bit misleading as up until then they were in the Northern League.

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I was looking at each team's performance for the duration of their league existance. It gives a stronger idea of how well they've done. No doubts that Wigan and Wimbledon were pretty successful for the shorter time they've been in the league, which wouldn't be represented at all if you just did a cumulative list.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

A hundred years ago, Cardiff was, arguably, at its most powerful and influential as it was still a thriving port on the back of all that exporting of coal and, from this distance, it's surprising that a place of such importance only made it into the Football League just as Cardiff's status was beginning to decline in the run up to the Depression and General Strike,

My guess is that Cardiff City's place in lists like Eric's would be a fair bit higher if we'd, say, joined the Football League at the time Riverside FC came about in 1899.

I would argue that the first fifty years of City's existence in the Football League is more successful in terms of major trophies contested and time spent in the top flight than the second one, despite the city and surrounding areas being in something of a decline between 1920 and 1970. Okay, the partial recovery of the city in particular since 1970 has not restored it to its former glories, but its football and rugby clubs have still under achieved in the past half a century when it comes to matching the prosperity and status of the city they represent.

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I couldn't agree more.

Thinking of top flight football, certainly our successes in the 1920s have never been matched since. My understanding is that, back then, players were generally local to the clubs themselves, when money had less of an effect on the game. I was surprised, then, to find out that, prior to 1970, 52 different teams had competed in the top flight. Since 1970, that number has risen to 56. However, prior to 1970 there were 21 different English Champions and only 12 since. Villa, Blackburn, Leicester and Forest have won one, Everton, Leeds and Derby two, so 40 of the last 50 champions has come from a pool of 5 clubs.

It also appears that, in recent times, the footballing top table has increasingly come from the south east, with some traditionally stronger teams from the North and Midlands spending longer in the Championship. As that part of the country has grown economically, that's probably not a surprise.

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Originally Posted by kendoddsdadsdogsdead

...Jordi!..didn't have you as a Quo snob..did you join the Phil Collins snob group as well?

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My dislike of Quo is the direct consequence of my brother once running a pub where one of his regulars continuously played Quo and Meat Loaf on the jukebox. Each to their own mind:music::thumbup:

Regarding Phil Collins he’s a Tory and I’d rather listen to tinnitus. He was crap in Buster too. The best thing I got to say about him is he looks like Edward Woodward (to me anyway). My wife used to listen to one of his album’s regularly. We lost it during a house move.:biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I was looking at each team's performance for the duration of their league existance. It gives a stronger idea of how well they've done. No doubts that Wigan and Wimbledon were pretty successful for the shorter time they've been in the league, which wouldn't be represented at all if you just did a cumulative list.

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It’s an interesting list and well done on doing the statistics :thumbup:

Notts County is an interesting one (for me). Never had them down as a regular in the top two divisions although I can remember them being in Division 1 for a few seasons and City played them during the 70s. Just shows how your personal memories don’t reflect the reality.

Keep them coming butt.:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

yes of course, maths isn't my strong point :biggrin:

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Don’t put that on your CV butt:biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

My dislike of Quo is the direct consequence of my brother once running a pub where one of his regulars continuously played Quo and Meat Loaf on the jukebox. Each to their own mind:music::thumbup:

Regarding Phil Collins he’s a Tory and I’d rather listen to tinnitus. He was crap in Buster too. The best thing I got to say about him is he looks like Edward Woodward (to me anyway). My wife used to listen to one of his album’s regularly. We lost it during a house move.:biggrin:

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...as you say J. each to their own...
back in the day I played Electric Warrior to death , but still love it..

Great research Eric the Half a Bee. Stats is my thing with City too. I must remind our 'friends' down West! And the attendances too.

i think in the 100 years we have been in the FL, we have been above Swansea roughly two thirds of the time, but they only count the Premier League and forget they are essentially a second/third tier team. Not thatI have grudge against them of course, but they do need reminding. The last 10 years have been the greatest in their history, it's been pretty good for us too. But City in the 1920s were something, promoted in the first season, Winning the FA Cup, Welsh Cup and Charity Shield in the same year and another FA Cup Final and another FA Cup Semi Final too. We had to field a reserve team once as we had so many International call ups.

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Originally Posted by cardiff55

Great research Eric the Half a Bee. Stats is my thing with City too. I must remind our 'friends' down West! And the attendances too.

i think in the 100 years we have been in the FL, we have been above Swansea roughly two thirds of the time, but they only count the Premier League and forget they are essentially a second/third tier team. Not thatI have grudge against them of course, but they do need reminding. The last 10 years have been the greatest in their history, it's been pretty good for us too. But City in the 1920s were something, promoted in the first season, Winning the FA Cup, Welsh Cup and Charity Shield in the same year and another FA Cup Final and another FA Cup Semi Final too. We had to field a reserve team once as we had so many International call ups.

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We've been above Swansea 59 times. They've been above us 34 times.

We've played in the same division 30 times. We've been one division above them 29 times and two divisions above them 13 times. They've been one division above us 21 times and two divisions above us once. When we've been in the same division, we've finished above them 17 times out of 29.

Throughout the 1920s we finished above Swansea every season. This reversed throughout the 1930s as we plunged into Division 3.

From 1950, we finished ahead of them for 29 consecutive seasons. Since 1979, they've been above us 23 times while we've been above them 18 times. We were on top for 12 out of 13 seasons from 1997-2010. The 2010s saw 8 consecutive seasons when Swansea have been above us. The longest stint Swansea have enjoyed above us is 10 seasons in the 1930s-1946/47.

I think if I had to broadly categorise both clubs I’d say the city are underachievers and the jacks overachievers. Historically, we’re probably about where we should be and they’re punching above their weight.

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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue

I think if I had to broadly categorise both clubs I’d say the city are underachievers and the jacks overachievers. Historically, we’re probably about where we should be and they’re punching above their weight.

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Yes, I'd agree with that. If you're interested, as things currently stand in the league tables, we're 5 places above our average, Swansea are 23 places above their average.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Yes, I'd agree with that. If you're interested, as things currently stand in the league tables, we're 5 places above our average, Swansea are 23 places above their average.

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Thanks Eric! Love these tidbits.

Broadening it out rivalry-wise, I’d probably categorise the wurzels as closer to us than the jacks on that spectrum of achievement. Although being a two club town disrupts that a little bit when I think of them compared to us.

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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue

Thanks Eric! Love these tidbits.

Broadening it out rivalry-wise, I’d probably categorise the wurzels as closer to us than the jacks on that spectrum of achievement. Although being a two club town disrupts that a little bit when I think of them compared to us.

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Beat me to it.

Eric what's the score statistics wise between City and those carrot crunching, scrumpy sodden, straw chewing halfwits in Bristol?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Beat me to it.

Eric what's the score statistics wise between City and those carrot crunching, scrumpy sodden, straw chewing halfwits in Bristol?

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Their average position is 42nd, ours is 40th, the Jacks is 48th (revised from last week's post due to an inputting error).

At this present moment in time, the cyder drynkers are 19 places higher than their overall average.

We've been above them in the league 55 times, they've been above us 38 times. We've been in the same division 41 times.

They've been 2 divisions above us 4 times, we've been 2 divisions above them 11 times.

From 1971, they finished above us 26 times in 32 seasons up until that wonderous moment when we beat them in the playoffs. In 17 years since then, we've finished above them 16 times. The only time they finished above us during this period was in 2007/08 where they managed to blow an automatic promotion and playoff attempt within a few weeks.

Here's one for you (and anyone else):

Swansea are currently 23.5 places higher than their football league average. Which 5 sides have even higher positions than their league averages?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Their average position is 42nd, ours is 40th, the Jacks is 48th (revised from last week's post due to an inputting error).

At this present moment in time, the cyder drynkers are 19 places higher than their overall average.

We've been above them in the league 55 times, they've been above us 38 times. We've been in the same division 41 times.

They've been 2 divisions above us 4 times, we've been 2 divisions above them 11 times.

From 1971, they finished above us 26 times in 32 seasons up until that wonderous moment when we beat them in the playoffs. In 17 years since then, we've finished above them 16 times. The only time they finished above us during this period was in 2007/08 where they managed to blow an automatic promotion and playoff attempt within a few weeks.

Here's one for you (and anyone else):

Swansea are currently 23.5 places higher than their football league average. Which 5 sides have even higher positions than their league averages?

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Eric, without checking I assume Accrington Stanley must be one and possibly Brighton too.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Swansea are currently 23.5 places higher than their football league average. Which 5 sides have even higher positions than their league averages?

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Couldn’t hazard a guess with some of the more recent FL newbies and as someone has plumped for Brighton I’ll go for:

Wycombe, Bournemouth, Reading, Watford, Peterborough?

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Originally Posted by kendoddsdadsdogsdead

Wigan's first game in the league was against Reading..away...only know that because a few of us were at Reading 78..The Jam..Sham..Quo..and a bunch of West Ham skinheads invited us to jump the turnstiles and steam into the ' northern ***** '...but we couldn't find them!..ended 0.0

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top invite

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Originally Posted by Moodybluebird

Eric, without checking I assume Accrington Stanley must be one and possibly Brighton too.

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Brighton are second on the list. Accrington are 18th.

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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue

Couldn’t hazard a guess with some of the more recent FL newbies and as someone has plumped for Brighton I’ll go for:

Wycombe, Bournemouth, Reading, Watford, Peterborough?

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Bournemouth are top. Wycombe 4th. Reading 5th. Watford 9th. Peterborough 14th.

Moodybluebird has given us Brighton in 2nd. The team in 3rd is probably a big surprise as most would consider them an established top two divisions side. Their average position is virtually identical to ours. They were almost exclusively a 3rd division team until the mid 60s, but have only had 3 seasons there since, and they have also overtaken our tally of seasons in the top flight.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Bournemouth are top. Wycombe 4th. Reading 5th. Watford 9th. Peterborough 14th.

Moodybluebird has given us Brighton in 2nd. The team in 3rd is probably a big surprise as most would consider them an established top two divisions side. Their average position is virtually identical to ours. They were almost exclusively a 3rd division team until the mid 60s, but have only had 3 seasons there since, and they have also overtaken our tally of seasons in the top flight.

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Southampton?

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Southampton?

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Close. They are 10th. They've only spent 11 seasons outside the top 2 divisions and their average position is 25th.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Bournemouth are top. Wycombe 4th. Reading 5th. Watford 9th. Peterborough 14th.

Moodybluebird has given us Brighton in 2nd. The team in 3rd is probably a big surprise as most would consider them an established top two divisions side. Their average position is virtually identical to ours. They were almost exclusively a 3rd division team until the mid 60s, but have only had 3 seasons there since, and they have also overtaken our tally of seasons in the top flight.

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Palace?

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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue

Palace?

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Yes. I recall an old football annual from around 1980 claiming Palace would be the team of the 80s! I was quite surprised to discover that the Palace side that lost to Man Utd in the 1990 FA cup final replay, the team with Bright and Wright, had only just completed its 7th season in the top flight!

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Yes. I recall an old football annual from around 1980 claiming Palace would be the team of the 80s! I was quite surprised to discover that the Palace side that lost to Man Utd in the 1990 FA cup final replay, the team with Bright and Wright, had only just completed its 7th season in the top flight!

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Damn, Kind of Blue beat me to it !

When I started supporting the City, Palace had just been promoted to Div 2. They used to be a perennial lower league team. They were promoted to Div 1 with Derby in 68/69 but what was most painful was the 4-0 home defeat we suffered at their hands in our first home game of the season followed up with 1-0 loss at home to Charlton a few days later. We recovered remarkably well after those setbacks and went on to have a decent season (and we later signed Bobby Woodruff from them).

Who would be the top (or bottom) five in terms of being lower than their historic average? This feels a little tougher for me to guess off the top of my head, although imagine Bolton must be a decent shout for topping that list? Sunderland? Notts County maybe?

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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue

Who would be the top (or bottom) five in terms of being lower than their historic average? This feels a little tougher for me to guess off the top of my head, although imagine Bolton must be a decent shout for topping that list? Sunderland? Notts County maybe?

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This is where there's a shortcoming in my stats. I haven't gone beyond the football league, so my stats for each team are purely from league seasons only.

Bolton are certainly the worst, 62 places currently lower than their average. Notts County would come next, 60 places lower than their average, but that doesn't take into account the few seasons in the National League (though that won't make much difference to the overall).

In terms of currrent league teams only, Grimsby, Oldham, Bradford City and Sunderland come next.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Their average position is 42nd, ours is 40th, the Jacks is 48th (revised from last week's post due to an inputting error).

At this present moment in time, the cyder drynkers are 19 places higher than their overall average.

We've been above them in the league 55 times, they've been above us 38 times. We've been in the same division 41 times.

They've been 2 divisions above us 4 times, we've been 2 divisions above them 11 times.

From 1971, they finished above us 26 times in 32 seasons up until that wonderous moment when we beat them in the playoffs. In 17 years since then, we've finished above them 16 times. The only time they finished above us during this period was in 2007/08 where they managed to blow an automatic promotion and playoff attempt within a few weeks.

Here's one for you (and anyone else):

Swansea are currently 23.5 places higher than their football league average. Which 5 sides have even higher positions than their league averages?

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Fantastic stuff.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Yes. I recall an old football annual from around 1980 claiming Palace would be the team of the 80s! I was quite surprised to discover that the Palace side that lost to Man Utd in the 1990 FA cup final replay, the team with Bright and Wright, had only just completed its 7th season in the top flight!

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There was a decent documentary on BT Sport regarding the 'team of the 80s' which is worth a watch. Thought big, dreamed big, then fell on their arses but their fans loved it.