Is it time for the club to take a look at itself?

Firstly, congratulations to Swansea today. I've seen a few one-sided derbies over the last decade or so, but that was Championship vs League 2. They're a tidy side at this level, but no better than several towards the top.

Secondly, that was one of the worst Cardiff performances I've seen for some years. I'm glad Swansea never really had a go at us or it would have been a QPR score. We lost it in the first half by going back to the gutless, slow, unmotivated effort we'd seen until the last 4 games. It nearly cost us on Tuesday, and perhaps Vokes missed penalty and our unlikely recovery papered over a few cracks.

I've always been an advocate of learning from others when what you're doing isn't good enough, looking at why things go wrong and putting them right. After a dismal game like that, it's natural to do so. When you see a side that are comfortable on the ball, pass it well, there's good movement, players interchange and pull the opposition out of position, show an amount of flair and natural talent, you have to ask what are we doing? We have a limited and ageing squad, Swansea have a young team. It showed. In every aspect on the pitch they were better than us. I'm also wondering if they're better than us in most aspects off the pitch as well.

What is our plan? Do we have one? Do we have a vision where we are aiming to be a modern football club? What foundations are we laying for the future? I haven't known the answers to those for some years. We've managed a promotion and relegation, we're still roughly a top half Championship side, but days like today show how far we need to go.

I have said time and again the problem is with the board and the decision making at this club.
I don't blame Harris. He has landed a job that many thought he didn't have a chance of getting especially coming off the back of the Warnock era.

I blame the board totally. Swansea are held up as the standard down here. They have a philosophy to play football a certain way but this is successful because they carefully plan the appointments they make and have a decent level of knowledge in the area. Would Swansea employ Harris? They wouldn't for the simple fact he would take their football backwards and they are knowledgable enough at board level to see this. Our board employ Harris and have a joke about how many shots they want. Until we are sorted at board level we will have nothing to look forward to other than stumbling on a decent manager every once in a while.

Any half decent manager would have changed the team and tactics today

Playing just 2 in midfield against the Jacks is just ridiculous, they always flood the midfield area

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Firstly, congratulations to Swansea today. I've seen a few one-sided derbies over the last decade or so, but that was Championship vs League 2. They're a tidy side at this level, but no better than several towards the top.

Secondly, that was one of the worst Cardiff performances I've seen for some years. I'm glad Swansea never really had a go at us or it would have been a QPR score. We lost it in the first half by going back to the gutless, slow, unmotivated effort we'd seen until the last 4 games. It nearly cost us on Tuesday, and perhaps Vokes missed penalty and our unlikely recovery papered over a few cracks.

I've always been an advocate of learning from others when what you're doing isn't good enough, looking at why things go wrong and putting them right. After a dismal game like that, it's natural to do so. When you see a side that are comfortable on the ball, pass it well, there's good movement, players interchange and pull the opposition out of position, show an amount of flair and natural talent, you have to ask what are we doing? We have a limited and ageing squad, Swansea have a young team. It showed. In every aspect on the pitch they were better than us. I'm also wondering if they're better than us in most aspects off the pitch as well.

What is our plan? Do we have one? Do we have a vision where we are aiming to be a modern football club? What foundations are we laying for the future? I haven't known the answers to those for some years. We've managed a promotion and relegation, we're still roughly a top half Championship side, but days like today show how far we need to go.

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What a ridiculous over reaction to a defeat. Throwing your toys out of the pram takes on a whole new meaning after reading that. Limited and ageing squad ? - there were only two players in our team over 30 and everybody else thinks we have one of the strongest squads in the division.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I have said time and again the problem is with the board and the decision making at this club.
I don't blame Harris. He has landed a job that many thought he didn't have a chance of getting especially coming off the back of the Warnock era.

I blame the board totally. Swansea are held up as the standard down here. They have a philosophy to play football a certain way but this is successful because they carefully plan the appointments they make and have a decent level of knowledge in the area. Would Swansea employ Harris? They wouldn't for the simple fact he would take their football backwards and they are knowledgable enough at board level to see this. Our board employ Harris and have a joke about how many shots they want. Until we are sorted at board level we will have nothing to look forward to other than stumbling on a decent manager every once in a while.

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Spot on for me.

Harris has given us pretty much what most expected of him and the style we expected. He can't be blamed for that.

Dalman promised us a change of style after Warnock, it was the perfect time for change. I'm not sure what the thinking was employing Harris as it didn't correlate to what Dalman was saying in the media.

I haven't come across any fan that thought Harris would being us the change in style and philosophy we crave.

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Originally Posted by Poolerblue

Any half decent manager would have changed the team and tactics today

Playing just 2 in midfield against the Jacks is just ridiculous, they always flood the midfield area

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How would you have changed our team and tactics?

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I have said time and again the problem is with the board and the decision making at this club.
I don't blame Harris. He has landed a job that many thought he didn't have a chance of getting especially coming off the back of the Warnock era.

I blame the board totally. Swansea are held up as the standard down here. They have a philosophy to play football a certain way but this is successful because they carefully plan the appointments they make and have a decent level of knowledge in the area. Would Swansea employ Harris? They wouldn't for the simple fact he would take their football backwards and they are knowledgable enough at board level to see this. Our board employ Harris and have a joke about how many shots they want. Until we are sorted at board level we will have nothing to look forward to other than stumbling on a decent manager every once in a while.

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Can't argue with that. They don't possess enough football knowledge to make the right appointment, or are happy to continue down the same one way street.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I have said time and again the problem is with the board and the decision making at this club.
I don't blame Harris. He has landed a job that many thought he didn't have a chance of getting especially coming off the back of the Warnock era.

I blame the board totally. Swansea are held up as the standard down here. They have a philosophy to play football a certain way but this is successful because they carefully plan the appointments they make and have a decent level of knowledge in the area. Would Swansea employ Harris? They wouldn't for the simple fact he would take their football backwards and they are knowledgable enough at board level to see this. Our board employ Harris and have a joke about how many shots they want. Until we are sorted at board level we will have nothing to look forward to other than stumbling on a decent manager every once in a while.

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Holding the Swansea board up as an example of how to run a football club takes the biscuit and illustrates how little you know about football. They have basically bled the club dry in recent years and are only signing young players on loan now because they don't have any money, after seven consecutive years in the Premier League.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

What a ridiculous over reaction to a defeat. Throwing your toys out of the pram takes on a whole new meaning after reading that. Limited and ageing squad ? - there were only two players in our team over 30 and everybody else thinks we have one of the strongest squads in the division.

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We have one of the oldest squads in the Championship.

Ok. What is the club's long term plan? Does it envisage moving away from a long ball game with technically better footballers or is this the style it aims to continue playing? How in depth does the club look at transfer targets and what criteria is used when bringing them in? These aren't questions that have just risen from one game. They've been asked for months, if not years. I can continue with the questions if you wish. A few wins don't mean the questions disappear.

I appreciate your knowledge of football isn't great, but if you have any answers I'd like to hear them. It's not as if I'm the only one asking them, either.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Holding the Swansea board up as an example of how to run a football club takes the biscuit and illustrates how little you know about football. They have basically bled the club dry in recent years and are only signing young players on loan now because they don't have any money, after seven consecutive years in the Premier League.

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Hang on, are you claiming our recruitment process is better than theirs? Really?

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Originally Posted by Poolerblue

Any half decent manager would have changed the team and tactics today

Playing just 2 in midfield against the Jacks is just ridiculous, they always flood the midfield area

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You do realise that we won the previous four games in a row don't you ? Nobody in their right mind would change a winning team like that if they didn't have to. The players didn't perform today - simple as that.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Holding the Swansea board up as an example of how to run a football club takes the biscuit and illustrates how little you know about football. They have basically bled the club dry in recent years and are only signing young players on loan now because they don't have any money, after seven consecutive years in the Premier League.

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I'm glad you've mentioned this.

They have bled the club dry and still put a team on the pitch that embarrassed us today.
They have less than us yet still pick a better manager, put players into the team who look more comfortable than ours and comprehensively beat us.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

You do realise that we won the previous four games in a row don't you ? Nobody in their right mind would change a winning team like that if they didn't have to. The players didn't perform today - simple as that.

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I am with you on that. If Harris had made changes and we had lost, he'd have been crucified. However, both the players and the management didn't perform today. We were far too slow making our changes in the second half.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I'm glad you've mentioned this.

They have bled the club dry and still put a team on the pitch that embarrassed us today.
They have less than us yet still pick a better manager, put players into the team who look more comfortable than ours and comprehensively beat us.

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I think much of that is down to Cooper, who knows youth football like the back of his hand. Much of Swansea's original rise was Huw Jenkins' contacts in the game.

We simply do not have contacts or information about the game like that.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I think much of that is down to Cooper, who knows youth football like the back of his hand. Much of Swansea's original rise was Huw Jenkins' contacts in the game.

We simply do not have contacts or information about the game like that.

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I agree. They brought in Cooper.

We brought in Harris.

You reep what you sow. Swansea have a vision and bring people in that help make that a reality. We stick a pin in the great big book of uninspiring managers, tell them we've got to get top six, spend a little cash and then seem bewildered when it doesn't work out.

Is Swansea's style;e succesful? They play a certain way and are used to it, it worked for them today helped by a poor performance by us, bad defending and a sending off. Ralls was stupid.

We play a certain way and played it badly today aided by a manager who picked the same 11 and played 4-4-2. Outgunned by Cooper.

If their player had been sent off we would have had a better chance, but never underestimate the ability of City to mess it up.

Another open question by Eric which will no doubt produce some hyper-negative responses. My take is that the squad is top ten only, the players Harris has brought in and got rid of were mostly the right players, he's bringing through some players who i) have better (not perfect) technical skill and ii) might be with us for a long time, and he's doing so with a shrinking budget. At the same time, he got us to the play-offs last year and we might, just might, do it again this year giving us a chance of promotion.

Does anyone disagree with that? If they agree with that doesn't it suggest some longer-term planning from the club? Especially when you add David Hughes being given a role and planning permission for youth training base.

Today was disappointing and it's brought back some memories of disappointing results/performances from earlier in the year, but we really should avoid the overreaction Stoke fans produced on the Oatcake earlier in the week.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I agree. They brought in Cooper.

We brought in Harris.

You reep what you sow. Swansea have a vision and bring people in that help make that a reality. We stick a pin in the great big book of uninspiring managers, tell them we've got to get top six, spend a little cash and then seem bewildered when it doesn't work out.

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Swansea went from Potter to Cooper - both very much in the mold of Martinez, Rogers and the classic Swansea manager. You simply cannot go from Warnock to Cooper when you don't have money to spend, and yet some of our fans are critical of us trying to pass out from teh back which does suggest an evolution in style has happened.

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Originally Posted by surge

Swansea went from Potter to Cooper - both very much in the mold of Martinez, Rogers and the classic Swansea manager. You cannot go from Warnock to Cooper when you don't have money to spend.

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Why not? That is exactly what is needed in my opinion.

This squad would not go down but we would get rid of the dead wood that can't adapt and would have a vision rather than putting some stop gap in charge who has their own twisted view on the way we should be playing.

We tried the Cardiff way and brought in Trollope. Awful start called for his head and sacked.

Cooper wouldnt have lasted 2 months with us.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Firstly, congratulations to Swansea today. I've seen a few one-sided derbies over the last decade or so, but that was Championship vs League 2. They're a tidy side at this level, but no better than several towards the top.

Secondly, that was one of the worst Cardiff performances I've seen for some years. I'm glad Swansea never really had a go at us or it would have been a QPR score. We lost it in the first half by going back to the gutless, slow, unmotivated effort we'd seen until the last 4 games. It nearly cost us on Tuesday, and perhaps Vokes missed penalty and our unlikely recovery papered over a few cracks.

I've always been an advocate of learning from others when what you're doing isn't good enough, looking at why things go wrong and putting them right. After a dismal game like that, it's natural to do so. When you see a side that are comfortable on the ball, pass it well, there's good movement, players interchange and pull the opposition out of position, show an amount of flair and natural talent, you have to ask what are we doing? We have a limited and ageing squad, Swansea have a young team. It showed. In every aspect on the pitch they were better than us. I'm also wondering if they're better than us in most aspects off the pitch as well.

What is our plan? Do we have one? Do we have a vision where we are aiming to be a modern football club? What foundations are we laying for the future? I haven't known the answers to those for some years. We've managed a promotion and relegation, we're still roughly a top half Championship side, but days like today show how far we need to go.

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Stolen my thunder there Eric because my blog piece is going to be along the same lines - I'm the most annoyed I've been after a game in years and am sick and tired of having a style of football I can't stand shoved down my throat because, apparently, the people in charge at the club believe it's what I want to see. Do other City fans really enjoy the sort of football we've been producing for the last ten years?

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Originally Posted by cardiff55

Is Swansea's style;e succesful? They play a certain way and are used to it, it worked for them today helped by a poor performance by us, bad defending and a sending off. Ralls was stupid.

We play a certain way and played it badly today aided by a manager who picked the same 11 and played 4-4-2. Outgunned by Cooper.

If their player had been sent off we would have had a better chance, but never underestimate the ability of City to mess it up.

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Swansea were 2nd after beating us and are 3rd in the live table.

City are 10th and seven points behind them despite the recent run.

Yes, I would say they play a better style of football and it is more successful than ours in terms of results.
All this despite their owners bleeding the club dry might I add.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

Why not? That is exactly what is needed in my opinion.

This squad would not go down but we would get rid of the dead wood that can't adapt and would have a vision rather than putting some stop gap in charge who has their own twisted view on the way we should be playing.

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Open challenge: name me a club that has successfully jumped to play a more expansive game (when not starting in league one or two) without money to spend or having invested a lot in their academy.

Swansea - their journey started in league one.
Brighton - they had invested a lot in their academy and had money to spend
Manchester City - Pep only goes where he has money to spend to bring in his sort of player.

Harris is a stepping stone in the right direction and might get us promotion. This thread is about longer term planning and people want to take a massive jump without any resources, partly because of philosophy of previous manager, to back it up with.

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Originally Posted by surge

Another open question by Eric which will no doubt produce some hyper-negative responses. My take is that the squad is top ten only, the players Harris has brought in and got rid of were mostly the right players, he's bringing through some players who i) have better (not perfect) technical skill and ii) might be with us for a long time, and he's doing so with a shrinking budget. At the same time, he got us to the play-offs last year and we might, just might, do it again this year giving us a chance of promotion.

Does anyone disagree with that? If they agree with that doesn't it suggest some longer-term planning from the club? Especially when you add David Hughes being given a role and planning permission for youth training base.

Today was disappointing and it's brought back some memories of disappointing results/performances from earlier in the year, but we really should avoid the overreaction Stoke fans produced on the Oatcake earlier in the week.

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Moore has been a very good signing and has done more than I thought he would. He'll be missed while he's injured. Apart from Moore and a keeper, our signings have all been loanees. That has been refreshing as I've felt we've not done enough in the loan market and we have brought in some very good players, but they'll need replacing in a year, so my worries about the club and short termism are still there. Wilson has not nearly been as involved as he should be. Ojo is looking like a very good player. The rest seems to be struggling. For all these players that are technically and skillfully better, we're scoring less from open play than we did last season, relying more heavily on set pieces. I still feel we're a better side when we play a longer ball game, but we get shown up for such tactics when we play someone decent.

I have no doubt that we're hamstrung in a way by some of the long contracts our players are on. We haven't got many of our own that would command much in terms of transfer fees, this has been the case for many years now.

I am glad the club are looking to expand youth facilities.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Stolen my thunder there Eric because my blog piece is going to be along the same lines - I'm the most annoyed I've been after a game in years and am sick and tired of having a style of football I can't stand shoved down my throat because, apparently, the people in charge at the club believe it's what I want to see. Do other City fans really enjoy the sort of football we've been producing for the last ten years?

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I enjoyed the 2 promotion seasons.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

We tried the Cardiff way and brought in Trollope. Awful start called for his head and sacked.

Cooper wouldnt have lasted 2 months with us.

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We never had the players for it. Trollope would be a like a pig in shit if he was Swansea manager.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

Why not? That is exactly what is needed in my opinion.

This squad would not go down but we would get rid of the dead wood that can't adapt and would have a vision rather than putting some stop gap in charge who has their own twisted view on the way we should be playing.

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That wasn't what people were writing on here after the Coventry game.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

I enjoyed the 2 promotion seasons.

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We enjoyed the winning. It's when it stops becoming winning football that questions get raised.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Stolen my thunder there Eric because my blog piece is going to be along the same lines - I'm the most annoyed I've been after a game in years and am sick and tired of having a style of football I can't stand shoved down my throat because, apparently, the people in charge at the club believe it's what I want to see. Do other City fans really enjoy the sort of football we've been producing for the last ten years?

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Did you come up with the analogy of City being a drunk swaying from one direction to the next uncontrollably a few years ago? Or did I come up with that but doing so to agree with your complaints about short-termism?

I agree that short-termism over the past 10 plus years means we're far further behind where we should be, but I can see some medium to longer-term planning in what club has done since Harris has arrived and think there should be some patience while it plays out. I don't think Harris-ball should be the final picture though.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Stolen my thunder there Eric because my blog piece is going to be along the same lines - I'm the most annoyed I've been after a game in years and am sick and tired of having a style of football I can't stand shoved down my throat because, apparently, the people in charge at the club believe it's what I want to see. Do other City fans really enjoy the sort of football we've been producing for the last ten years?

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I'm not sure the club believe it's what I want to see, but they've seen Warnock get a side with limitations promoted very successfully and probably not at great cost. We're still forced into it if we want success because we have players whose natural game isn't about passing and movement.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

I'm glad you've mentioned this.

They have bled the club dry and still put a team on the pitch that embarrassed us today.
They have less than us yet still pick a better manager, put players into the team who look more comfortable than ours and comprehensively beat us.

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They comprehensively beat us because we played poorly. They didn't play that well. If we had played well we would have won. We still have 12 points out of the last 15, they have 10 out of 15. How is Cooper a better manager ? What has he achieved ? Nothing. We finished above them last season and will again this.

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Originally Posted by surge

Open challenge: name me a club that has successfully jumped to play a more expansive game (when not starting in league one or two) without money to spend or having invested a lot in their academy.

Swansea - their journey started in league one.
Brighton - they had invested a lot in their academy and had money to spend
Manchester City - Pep only goes where he has money to spend to bring in his sort of player.

Harris is a stepping stone in the right direction and might get us promotion. This thread is about longer term planning and people want to take a massive jump without any resources, partly because of philosophy of previous manager, to back it up with.

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Their journey started in League 1 but would have been a decision and they would have employed a manager that started changing that style.

I'd say we have spent as much as Brighton over their period prior to being promoted to have more than bedded in a new style.

I would also say that the incremental change of manager would cost more and take longer than getting a manager in with an attractive style and letting him change it as and when the finances allow. If the fans could see this is what he was trying to do I'm sure there would be more patience too.

You mention the academy and I agree ours isn't fit for purpose given what it has produced. I would not expect our board to know what was going wrong with it or put people in place to remedy it. They certainly wouldn't look at examples of a good, successful academy and replicate it that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

They comprehensively beat us because we played poorly. They didn't play that well. If we had played well we would have won. We still have 12 points out of the last 15, they have 10 out of 15. How is Cooper a better manager ? What has he achieved ? Nothing. We finished above them last season and will again this.

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Because he has them higher in the table and playing a much better, attractive style of football and just played us off the park.

He also has less to spend but many say that you need money to achieve it.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

They comprehensively beat us because we played poorly. They didn't play that well. If we had played well we would have won. We still have 12 points out of the last 15, they have 10 out of 15. How is Cooper a better manager ? What has he achieved ? Nothing. We finished above them last season and will again this.

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So we're a better side because we've taken more points from the last 5 than they have, despite them taking more points over the course of the season, or even the last game......

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

We enjoyed the winning. It's when it stops becoming winning football that questions get raised.

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Trouble is, it is always the same 7 or 8 people raising the question on here, usually immediately after a loss. They also don't raise the question when we are winning games, as in the last four matches.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

Because he has them higher in the table and playing a much better, attractive style of football and just played us off the park.

He also has less to spend but many say that you need money to achieve it.

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Fees paid, wages id say theyd have the higher out of both those 11s.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So we're a better side because we've taken more points from the last 5 than they have, despite them taking more points over the course of the season, or even the last game......

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After 18 games they have more points than us. The season isn't decided after 18 games.

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Originally Posted by blue lewj

Their journey started in League 1 but would have been a decision and they would have employed a manager that started changing that style.

I'd say we have spent as much as Brighton over their period prior to being promoted to have more than bedded in a new style.

I would also say that the incremental change of manager would cost more and take longer than getting a manager in with an attractive style and letting him change it as and when the finances allow. If the fans could see this is what he was trying to do I'm sure there would be more patience too.

You mention the academy and I agree ours isn't fit for purpose given what it has produced. I would not expect our board to know what was going wrong with it or put people in place to remedy it. They certainly wouldn't look at examples of a good, successful academy and replicate it that's for sure.

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Brighton's academy was one of the best in the UK and had players to bring through which is probably why, maybe the transfer budget too, Potter agreed to go there. They didn't play better football than us when under Hughton.

Can you/anyone name a side which has successfully jumped to a more expansive style without resources (money or money invested in their academy) to back it up with? The only one I can think of is Swansea but they started in league One.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Fees paid, wages id say theyd have the higher out of both those 11s.

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So are the owners bleeding them dry or spending more on their team than us?

We can't have it both ways.

Do you think the board even considered the brand of football we would play when employing Harris?

If put on the spot do you think Tan, Choo and Dalman could dissect the performance today and tell us why we lost?

These are the people picking who takes charge of the team here.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

After 18 games they have more points than us. The season isn't decided after 18 games.

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Absolutely, so you must reckon we'll finish above them after 46 games then?