Super League - is it really a bad thing?

I may be out on my own here, but I think the reaction to the super league may be a bit of an over-reaction.

I can understand Eufa’s point – but this is their own fault – they should have seen this coming and altered the competitions to accommodate the “super” clubs – football has changed so much of the last 20-30 years but Eufa haven’t kept up – and now they stand to lose a hell of a lot of revenue.

The premier league itself has got a bit stale – apart from the top 4 clubs the most excitement is whether you’ll get relegated or not – only Leicester outside of the super clubs have won the PL since it’s inception 30 years ago. Now it could be a more exiting league like it used to be in the 60’s and 70’s when an array of clubs won it.
Kick the top six out – let the bottom 3 stay in and the top 3 from the Championship go up – the championship then will also be exciting next year as well – hell we might stand a chance of going up!

The winners of the Super League could play the winners of the CL, or the CL changes it’s format to allow some sort of invitation to the SL.

The premier league broke away from the Football League 30 odd years ago – everyone said it was the end of football – but it wasn’t it actually took the game to another level – now it’s time to move on again.

Blackburn?

I genuinely agree that the league would be better without super clubs - it skews everything. 2 ways to do that: boot them out, or put in place a salary cap so there is more of a level playing field.

They dont want to leave the PL though.

They want to play midweek and pocket all the additional revenue.

The League wont be better off without them. It will have a serious knock on affect.

However I dont see any other choice. They should be kicked out.

I've noticed that some people write Eufa. Why is that? Were they called this at some point in the past?

No I couldn't disagree more.
The biggest clubs want to create a situation whereby they have such a financial advantage over everyone else that they can never be caught.

I also think you're completely wrong about the premier league being a bit stale, it is probably stronger and more competitive top to bottom than it has ever been. There was a period when for like 5 or 6 seasons, the same 4 teams got into the champions league places - Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man U - and it didn't really seem possible that anyone else would be able to break into that group.
That was stale.

Since then we have had the emergence of Man City, Leicester, Spurs, and perhaps even this year west ham or Everton.
Nobody is guaranteed a permanent place in the champions league any more, there are only 4 places and there are at least 6 sides who's finances and ambitions dictate they need to be there.
Terrified of the prospect of not qualifying for a few years and missing out on that income they want to change the game so that cannot happen, and all that money will always come to them

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Originally Posted by Hilts

They dont want to leave the PL though.

They want to play midweek and pocket all the additional revenue.

The League wont be better off without them. It will have a serious knock on affect.

However I dont see any other choice. They should be kicked out.

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Yes they want to stay in the premier league, only have like 300million more to spend each season than anyone else - that doesn't seem much fun for any of the also rans.

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Originally Posted by Optimistic Nick

Blackburn?

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Oh, yeah forgot about them - 35 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

No I couldn't disagree more.
The biggest clubs want to create a situation whereby they have such a financial advantage over everyone else that they can never be caught.

I also think you're completely wrong about the premier league being a bit stale, it is probably stronger and more competitive top to bottom than it has ever been. There was a period when for like 5 or 6 seasons, the same 4 teams got into the champions league places - Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man U - and it didn't really seem possible that anyone else would be able to break into that group.
That was stale.

Since then we have had the emergence of Man City, Leicester, Spurs, and perhaps even this year west ham or Everton.
Nobody is guaranteed a permanent place in the champions league any more, there are only 4 places and there are at least 6 sides who's finances and ambitions dictate they need to be there.
Terrified of the prospect of not qualifying for a few years and missing out on that income they want to change the game so that cannot happen, and all that money will always come to them

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I remember back around 2000 when Man Utd and Arsenal were so far ahead of everyone else - players, managers, finances, the whole set up - that it seemed like it would be impossible for any club to challenge them in the foreseeable.

Then came Chelsea with the oligarch money and clubs realised that was the secret, and there was a race for the billionaires.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

No I couldn't disagree more.
The biggest clubs want to create a situation whereby they have such a financial advantage over everyone else that they can never be caught.

I also think you're completely wrong about the premier league being a bit stale, it is probably stronger and more competitive top to bottom than it has ever been. There was a period when for like 5 or 6 seasons, the same 4 teams got into the champions league places - Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man U - and it didn't really seem possible that anyone else would be able to break into that group.
That was stale.

Since then we have had the emergence of Man City, Leicester, Spurs, and perhaps even this year west ham or Everton.
Nobody is guaranteed a permanent place in the champions league any more, there are only 4 places and there are at least 6 sides who's finances and ambitions dictate they need to be there.
Terrified of the prospect of not qualifying for a few years and missing out on that income they want to change the game so that cannot happen, and all that money will always come to them

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Yes they do want to stay in the PL - but if they get removed it's not the end of the world - if they stay then, yes I agree your scenario is valid - however you can sort of see it from the clubs point of view - a team like Liverpool won't get into the PL next year, whereas TNS will....

Kick em out

They want their cake and they want all of it

They don't give a toss about the rest of football

Tell me to **** off

It was heartening to see Liverpool fans put banners up outside anfield yesterday condemning their clubs actions

Good on em and the United and Spurs fans interviewed outside their grounds

The Premier league hasn't transformed football , its just created an elite

I hope the fans of the big clubs rise up and tell them to do one

But I think after a while everyone will fall in line

The formation of the Premier league was a portent for the shit show that is on its way

Stick it up your arse , greedy self serving bastards

The biggest 6 clubs in England have enjoyed lax financial rules to beat out competition in England (also in Spain and Italy) and therefore should be rewarded by creating/controlling a competition which will create even greater inequality?

Barcelona want it because they're worried about debt; Juve want it because they're worried about Atalanta over-taking them; Spurs want it because they're good with money but bad with football; Arsenal want it because they're at risk of becoming a mid-table side....

Owners of these clubs want to:

i) restrict competition to reduce the risk of a Leicester City like season
ii) prevent financial risk of sustained bad decisions
iii) create even greater wealth for themselves
iv) break from current fanbase and responsibility to local area

It's an extreme version of what they currently have and what is being suggested by UEFA - neither of these are great and have several issues.

United and Liverpool are huge clubs on the European stage

But spurs lol

Them , Chelsea, Arsenal , Man City etc are feck all nobodies

It is the first step on the way to an NFL style franchise "super club" system, worldwide TV audiences supporting "brand" football clubs playing in stadium not connected to their historical roots.
Just imagine, Chelsea not playing in Chelsea, Manchester United not playing in Manchester, Arsenal not playing at an Arsenal, Anfield being rented out to a new side - whatever next! :-)

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Originally Posted by JumpersforGoalposts

It is the first step on the way to an NFL style franchise "super club" system, worldwide TV audiences supporting "brand" football clubs playing in stadium not connected to their historical roots.
Just imagine, Chelsea not playing in Chelsea, Manchester United not playing in Manchester, Arsenal not playing at an Arsenal, Anfield being rented out to a new side - whatever next! :-)

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perfect for the armchair fans from Surrey

but genuine working class supporters of the big clubs , living locally to them may as well not exist ......and this will nail it

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I remember back around 2000 when Man Utd and Arsenal were so far ahead of everyone else - players, managers, finances, the whole set up - that it seemed like it would be impossible for any club to challenge them in the foreseeable.

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Arsenal are an example of where premier league status and London status has ensured they're never too far away from massive wealth and success, however if they have another five years of bad decision making they risk becoming seen as a midtable side. Sustained bad decision making currently has consequences (and Leicester making sustained good decisions has potential for reward) in current system. This proposal damages that possibility.

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however you can sort of see it from the clubs point of view - a team like Liverpool won't get into the PL next year, whereas TNS will....

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That's fixed by revamped Champions League where sustained success creates a safety net - not the best solution - but this goes even further. And why shouldn't Connahs Quay Nomads/TNS get into Champions League qualifiers if they win their league and Liverpool fail to get in if they don't finish in top 4/win the Europa league/win the champions league?

i) Do you see how many more (realistic) chances Liverpool have already?
ii) Much of Liverpool's success up to this point has been based on taking best players from north Wales and other smaller European countries.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

Yes they do want to stay in the PL - but if they get removed it's not the end of the world - if they stay then, yes I agree your scenario is valid - however you can sort of see it from the clubs point of view - a team like Liverpool won't get into the PL next year, whereas TNS will....

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why should they? because theyve got a lot of money?

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Originally Posted by JumpersforGoalposts

It is the first step on the way to an NFL style franchise "super club" system, worldwide TV audiences supporting "brand" football clubs playing in stadium not connected to their historical roots.
Just imagine, Chelsea not playing in Chelsea, Manchester United not playing in Manchester, Arsenal not playing at an Arsenal, Anfield being rented out to a new side - whatever next! :-)

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I think you are right - for those clubs it will end up NFL style - Oakland moved to Las Vegas - about 600 miles away - you could see the Manchester Clubs perhaps buying or building Wembley and setting up shop there.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

I think you are right - for those clubs it will end up NFL style - Oakland moved to Las Vegas - about 600 miles away - you could see the Manchester Clubs perhaps buying or building Wembley and setting up shop there.

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Is Manchester big enough for two clubs? Can London accommodate a fourth? Oh look, New York isn't that far a distance away on a plane...

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Originally Posted by surge

Is Manchester big enough for two clubs? Can London accommodate a fourth? Oh look, New York isn't that far a distance away on a plane...

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New York would be a lot nearer if Concorde was still flying!

As to to OP question it is a bad thing, promoting more greed to the so-called Big Clubs, they have no interest in anyone but themselves. Perez of Greedy Madrid proved that with his statement.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

United and Liverpool are huge clubs on the European stage

But spurs lol

Them , Chelsea, Arsenal , Man City etc are feck all nobodies

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I disagree with this. All clubs need wealth for success. Man City are certainly no longer nobodies and the so called bigger clubs like Liverpool and United dont like it one bit.

The SL though is a disgrace. No thought to the rest of the clubs throughout the leagues.

The League wont be better off without them but I think booting them out is the only option if they pursue it.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

I may be out on my own here, but I think the reaction to the super league may be a bit of an over-reaction.

I can understand Eufa’s point – but this is their own fault – they should have seen this coming and altered the competitions to accommodate the “super” clubs – football has changed so much of the last 20-30 years but Eufa haven’t kept up – and now they stand to lose a hell of a lot of revenue.

The premier league itself has got a bit stale – apart from the top 4 clubs the most excitement is whether you’ll get relegated or not – only Leicester outside of the super clubs have won the PL since it’s inception 30 years ago. Now it could be a more exiting league like it used to be in the 60’s and 70’s when an array of clubs won it.
Kick the top six out – let the bottom 3 stay in and the top 3 from the Championship go up – the championship then will also be exciting next year as well – hell we might stand a chance of going up!

The winners of the Super League could play the winners of the CL, or the CL changes it’s format to allow some sort of invitation to the SL.

The premier league broke away from the Football League 30 odd years ago – everyone said it was the end of football – but it wasn’t it actually took the game to another level – now it’s time to move on again.

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The very big difference here is that the creation of the Premier League did not adversely affect the pyramid system and promotion/relegation based on performance. They were clever enough to realise that was the over riding issue that needed to be retained to maintain the integrity of the competition. The creation of the super league drives a horse and cart through that principle. The inaugural fifteen clubs will be in it no matter how they perform and THEY will decide who the other five ‘invitees’ will be on an annual basis, most likely only based on their ability to generate income and size of stadium i.e nothing to do with how they perform on the pitch. It is nothing more than a cabal based on monetary greed. Also don't forget that this doesn't just affect the UK - the Premier League model doesn't exist in Spain, Italy etc.

Along with many, I suspect, there's a part of me that hopes this goes through. Football is already becoming 'soccerball', and to see it self-destruct in an orgy of greed would be quite satisfying.

The argument is that they aren't making enough money. They are in control of how much they offer in fees and wages though! I would say fine, if you can't stay within your means we will force salary caps across the board. It will make it much fairer for everyone.

The proposed system would mean the 'Super 6' pocket a load of extra money and if they stay in the PL as planned then it will just become even more predictable than it already is.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

I disagree with this. All clubs need wealth for success. Man City are certainly no longer nobodies and the so called bigger clubs like Liverpool and United dont like it one bit.

The SL though is a disgrace. No thought to the rest of the clubs throughout the leagues.

The League wont be better off without them but I think booting them out is the only option if they pursue it.

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Liverpool and United have a long history of European glory

Spurs , Chelsea , Man City , Arsenal don't

Yes, it would indeed be a very bad thing.

A European Super League in the format that has been suggested would greatly devalue the Premier League, which would in turn greatly devalue the Championship and the rest of the English pyramid. It would kill off the League Cup (maybe not such a bad thing) and the FA Cup (a very bad thing). It would greatly devalue the Spanish and Italian domestic leagues and it would pretty much kill off European club football as we know it.

It would also be very, very boring.

It is an idea that has no upsides whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Along with many, I suspect, there's a part of me that hopes this goes through. Football is already becoming 'soccerball', and to see it self-destruct in an orgy of greed would be quite satisfying.

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I know where you are coming from

Its a cesspit

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Along with many, I suspect, there's a part of me that hopes this goes through. Football is already becoming 'soccerball', and to see it self-destruct in an orgy of greed would be quite satisfying.

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If it happens, it'll be a "success" insomuch as it'll make massive money, seemingly much bigger than other clubs left behind can get, and it'll attract plenty of players who need to choose between one code or the other.

It would ruin football on both sides of the fence. So no, for me I don't hope it'll go ahead. But I'm quite happy to see a punishment given to the 6.

If this does go through and they kick the 6 teams out if the PL, great. But it will mean much less cash from broadcasters in the future and will inevitably mean some clubs going to the wall, even if salary caps etc are introduced.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

perfect for the armchair fans from Surrey

but genuine working class supporters of the big clubs , living locally to them may as well not exist ......and this will nail it

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You are probably right but all the things I mentioned have already happened, they will just happen again on a larger scale.

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Originally Posted by surge

Is Manchester big enough for two clubs? Can London accommodate a fourth? Oh look, New York isn't that far a distance away on a plane...

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There is only one club in Manchester, the other one plays in the neighbouring city of Salford.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

I may be out on my own here, but I think the reaction to the super league may be a bit of an over-reaction.

I can understand Eufa’s point – but this is their own fault – they should have seen this coming and altered the competitions to accommodate the “super” clubs – football has changed so much of the last 20-30 years but Eufa haven’t kept up – and now they stand to lose a hell of a lot of revenue.

The premier league itself has got a bit stale – apart from the top 4 clubs the most excitement is whether you’ll get relegated or not – only Leicester outside of the super clubs have won the PL since it’s inception 30 years ago. Now it could be a more exiting league like it used to be in the 60’s and 70’s when an array of clubs won it.
Kick the top six out – let the bottom 3 stay in and the top 3 from the Championship go up – the championship then will also be exciting next year as well – hell we might stand a chance of going up!

The winners of the Super League could play the winners of the CL, or the CL changes it’s format to allow some sort of invitation to the SL.

The premier league broke away from the Football League 30 odd years ago – everyone said it was the end of football – but it wasn’t it actually took the game to another level – now it’s time to move on again.

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UEFA have been appeasing these clubs for years, this latest reform was them appeasing these clubs yet again. They've gone too far this time and UEFA have rightly told them to go f*ck themselves

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Yes, it would indeed be a very bad thing.

A European Super League in the format that has been suggested would greatly devalue the Premier League, which would in turn greatly devalue the Championship and the rest of the English pyramid. It would kill off the League Cup (maybe not such a bad thing) and the FA Cup (a very bad thing). It would greatly devalue the Spanish and Italian domestic leagues and it would pretty much kill off European club football as we know it.

It would also be very, very boring.

It is an idea that has no upsides whatsoever.

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I think seeing the top European sides, and therefore the top players playing each other on a regular basis would be a good thing from an entertainment perspective.

Different teams would also qualify for the CH - assuming the Super Six are kicked out of both competitions - so you'd have Leicester, West Ham, Everton & Leeds in the CH next season.

The aspirations of the Championship clubs would be more than just stay in the PL, for example Norwich next season would think they have a chance of getting to Europe - not just fighting relegation or settling for mid table security.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

Yes they do want to stay in the PL - but if they get removed it's not the end of the world - if they stay then, yes I agree your scenario is valid - however you can sort of see it from the clubs point of view - a team like Liverpool won't get into the PL next year, whereas TNS will....

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Because TNS would have earned their place in the competition. That's the point of sport, teams don't have a God given right to play in these competitions, they have to earn it.

Arsenal for instance already have massive advantage but have squandered it through poor decision making, why should they be rewarded for poor decisions and another club (Leicester) punished for consistent good decision making and performance?

kick em out

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Originally Posted by Hilts

They dont want to leave the PL though.

They want to play midweek and pocket all the additional revenue.

The League wont be better off without them. It will have a serious knock on affect.

However I dont see any other choice. They should be kicked out.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

I think seeing the top European sides, and therefore the top players playing each other on a regular basis would be a good thing from an entertainment perspective.

Different teams would also qualify for the CH - assuming the Super Six are kicked out of both competitions - so you'd have Leicester, West Ham, Everton & Leeds in the CH next season.

The aspirations of the Championship clubs would be more than just stay in the PL, for example Norwich next season would think they have a chance of getting to Europe - not just fighting relegation or settling for mid table security.

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There is no chance the CL can co-exist with this league. Who is going to watch Norwich vs Spartak Moscow when Barca/United is on at the same time? The CL essentially becomes a lesser version of the Europa League.

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Originally Posted by Llandaff Blue

There is no chance the CL can co-exist with this league. Who is going to watch Norwich vs Spartak Moscow when Barca/United is on at the same time? The CL essentially becomes a lesser version of the Europa League.

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Well the Norwich and Spartak fans would!

But if the CL can co-exist with the Europa League, then surely the CL & SL can co-exist?

I am obviously speculating wildly, but this thing only works if you've got a broadcaster or broadcasters with the money to gamble on it and have commited to doing so. The usual candidates are very clearly caught out by this and are very clearly and openly not involved: BT Sport, Sky and DAZN all saying "not me". The obvious choice is therefore Amazon.

I completely agree that this would become a US-style franchise system with lots of American owners, backed by an American tech company (massively speculating) and set up by an American investment bank. I think it will have a very American flavour and I suspect it would go on tour globally. And I can actually see why that would look attractive and sensible to many - superficially, having a league with the best players in Europe where games are played globally for the benefit of a global audience: as a standalone product, what is not to like? In particular when viewed through a US lens where franchises are the norm and leagues are closed because no other country really plays the main US sports.

And to be honest, the behaviour of the top clubs and their ability to spend (not generate - spend) billions of pounds has distorted finances so completely that even average players are now sold for tens of millions, and earn many millions themselves. It makes no sense and whilst the ESL would formalise the elimination of competition and make it absolute, the effect of money on the game has all but done that already.

Which is why I think this could, actually, be a good thing. Let them go and have their global league and market it wherever they can. The clubs and players CANNOT be allowed to compete in FIFA-approved competitions or leagues so in effect it becomes a separate sport. I don't really see the harm in allowing players to switch between the two, in the same way that some American atheletes can and do switch between NFL and baseball (although international football would be closed to them while contracted to ESL clubs). I think there should be no crossover at club level - no concept of other clubs getting "promoted" to the ESL, or any competition where the clubs from the two sports can compete against one another.

I also suggest that as this is a franchise, the ESL clubs are not allowed to bear the names of the towns or cities where they were once based - there is no point in pretending any more that Man Utd are there to represent the people of Manchester, so the city of Manchester ought to deny Utd the right to call themselves Manchester. They could simply be "United" or something. Doesn't matter.

Not sure if country governments could prevent the broadcasting of rights of the ESL in country e.g. whether the UK government could prevent ESL being broadcast on a legitimate service in the UK. If it can then it should, to protect the importance of the domestic league system that we would keep. And governments in Italy and Spain may choose to do the same, if that is allowed. No idea.

So you let them make their money elsewhere and I've no doubt that they would put together a very attractive product.

The biggie really is what does it mean for the rest of us? I don't really care if my league has been "devalued", whatever that means. Will it reduce the cost of TV rights packages? Almost certainly. Will it reduce the interest of billionaire owners? I suspect so - one would assume they'd want an ESL team to own. So will the money flowing into the game reduce? Yes - but so what? Players will get paid less, and the "best" players may jump to ESL. I can live with that.

Overall I think it will increase competition and variability and level the playing field and result in a better competition in domestic leagues and European competitions.

Would there be a nagging doubt that the winner of the EPL - say, Leicester - are not really the best club in the country and so it removes legitimacy from the competition, like when Utd pulled out of the FA cup that season? (They should never have been allowed back in after that btw). I'm not sure. these ESL clubs are going to be pariahs and I'm not sure they are going to have enormous local support, so I think the idea that a club called Reds United that sometimes plays in the UK and sometimes does not and whose games are not broadcast through legitimate channels in the UK and competes mostly against non-UK teams is somehow a British club would be weakened significantly. We don't care whether this year's EPL winner is the best team in Europe or the world, so I'm not sure we'd really care whether Leicester are better than teams playing in some other unconnected league. And as a Cardiff fan I'd still want us to get to the EPL and win it; and progress to Europe and win that too. Would I care that there is a MoneyLeague out there that we might lose our best players to? Probably -but the levelling of the playing field would outweigh that. ANd what is more, the level playing field would be the asset that the existing leagues would then have to compete for audience with the ESL, so I would hope there would be good commercial reasons for them putting in new rules to ensure this is the case. Salary caps being the obvious one. And that would be good for competition, which I think is good for the "value" or enjoyment of the league.

Real Madrid were bleating on about losing audience as football has become stale. They don't get it do they? It's become stale because the money that clubs like Real have has extinguished competition. By doubling down on the Galacticos concept being the solution and not recognising that it is the problem they are going to be clearing the way for the domestic league to provide that which I think most fans want to see- fairer competition, and not just the right to be steamrollered by the superclubs a few times a season.

Handled well, this could be the turning point for the sport but not for the benefit of ESL clubs, but the rest of us. Off they should jolly well ****, we will thrive without them.

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

Well the Norwich and Spartak fans would!

But if the CL can co-exist with the Europa League, then surely the CL & SL can co-exist?

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I don't think so, the EL benefits massively from having some of the big boys qualify or fall in at the KO stages, even then the viewership is declining.

Maybe I'm wrong but I cannot see how European football would survive, there would be barely any money in it if the ESL is on during the week