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Excellent documentary on BBC one now
Without immigration it would be completely fecked
And in the south wales valleys whole communities would be without health services full stop
Given the racism so many of the people received its amazing so many stayed
Doctors , nurses , porters , cooks , cleaners
13 percent of NHS were born overseas
40 percent of those working in the NHS are from ethnic minority heritage
No-one in their right mind can deny the incredible contribution that immigrants have played in the NHS but it does beg the question as to why a rich country like the UK is dependent on people coming from poorer areas of the world to do such highly skilled jobs and leaving their own communities all the poorer for their absence. Just a thought...
It's more than a thought - it's immoral. A poor country training doctors and nurses only be poached by the NHS is wrong. It shouldn't happen and is a failure of successive governments in training UK staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
In the early fifties we had that post war baby boom , rapid population increase etc
Doctors were needed , many doctors came from India and Pakistan where schools set up during colonial days taught English, many nurses came from west indies , again where language was not an issue
It’s a double edged sword I think.
Medical professionals from all over the world have landed in the UK and helped the NHS...and indeed saved it.
The burden of Immigration on the NHS takes its toll as well, with things like translation costs (genuine or fraudulent).
It’s flawed, abused and certainly mismanaged.
To me though, the NHS is the pinnacle of humanity.
Health Insurance, Pharma, and Health Care Providers here are a nothing short of a disgrace.
Very revealing , shows the contribution immigration has made to the NHS .
I don't think it's as simple as the NHS "poaching" medical staff from poorer countries, leaving those countries with denuded health systems. Many medically-trained professionals from developing countries can't wait to move to a system where the pay and conditions are far superior.
This phenomenon is also true for UK-trained medical professionals who move to the US because the pay is way better here. So the UK loses a lot of staff because of the same revolving door.
I fully understand all that but there was supposedly a 50,000 shortfall in nursing staff before Corona Virus hit - and that figure would obviously be higher if it weren't for immigrant nurses, if we can use that term. My last long-term partner was (and still is) a qualified nurse with a particular specialism and whose salary was far lower than I considered a fair reward for her considerable skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by az city
Excellent programme, I thought.
I can't say I've been enamoured by some of the Asian GPs I've encountered but the NHS was/is heavily reliant on them.
I was going to say "if you thinknits bad here you should see what it's like in the US" but then I saw who posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue
Only 37 of the 38 highest earning nations have managed to put in place socialised healthcare, so you can see why the US struggles with implementing it.
The valleys wouldn't have doctors in many towns if it wasn't for immigration from the Indian sub continentQuote:
Originally Posted by Seabird
Huge influx of philipino nurses to the main hospitals in South Wales too
following the pandemic , after Boris came out clapping like a seal, he rewarded the nurses with a 1 percent pay riseQuote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
No wonder there is a shortfall of nurses in the UK
its a bit hard to give pay rises beyond that when many workers lost their jobs during this time. Most medical professionals I know were worked to exhaustion, but appreciated they were still being paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
the proof of what this government believes their worth to be comes after the pandemic, when things settle down and we return to some normality regarding tax and spending.
https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/...csbull.2020.78
Why is there a shortage of doctors in the UK?
Surely any conversation about shortfalls in health staff whether primary or secondary needs to be had in the same breath as a similar conversation around socika care - I would have thought the pandemic would have ensured that now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
As for skills versus pay absolutely right - my daughter and wife work in front line NHS and they and thousands of others have gone beyond their grade and normal expectations in the last 18 months but as long as we try to keep people in their homes longer and maintain their independence the greater the skill needs required for home care staff and by consequence care home staff - both groups recognised as being underpaid and suffer huge recruitment issues - thinking in Wales is ahead of England on both systems but still needs huge investment
Loses to Australia and Harley Street /Bupa Private Clinics as well Nurse training at a cost of £70k a pop one could argue we are losing dosh ,perhaps some form of recipience should exist for those who exit the NHS within a certain time period after training .Quote:
Originally Posted by az city
Even more worrying “It costs £230,000 to train a doctor in England ""
Thank feck for them. We’d be screwed without the dedication
It’s all to do with money for me though, there’s enough people here to fill the vacancies, but unfortunately they’re either disincentivized to do the role for the money (both higher and lower ends) or locked out due to lack of funding for training.
If there was cheaper childcare, more incentive to work than not to, cheaper public transport then perhaps we wouldn’t be so heavily reliant on foreign labour. The easy and cheaper option is just to import cheaply.
But for the families that have come over and helped our country they should be applauded
well thats what Boris said , we love you , thanks for the effort but here is a few quid ....piss offQuote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
Most professionals I know hate this government and never mentioned the fact they were glad they were being paid
Doctors , nurses , physios , carers
Drakeford has his hands tied but at least he tried to help them
No he didn't SLUDGE.. just tell the truth. Its not too hardQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Not checked my facts : were previous Labour governments involved in this process, or has Boris been in charge for ever ??Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Boris Johnson voted down a pay rise for the nursesQuote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
The pandemic came along
He recovered
He thanked the nurses outside downing Street for saving his life
Said the NHS were fantastic
Then in the budget his gimp gave a one percent pay award to the NHS which the doctors and nurses leaders said was laughable
And they were right
What else can you add ?
Involved in the 2021 one percent pay award to nurses ?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
That was Boris
I always laugh when the tories on here try to squirm around the issue of the NHS
The tories have been at it for years Hancock and the previous creep both had interests in private health care companies
Get thee behind me Satan
I agree 100% rhat they deserve a decent increase but Boris does not decide how much. That is recommended by an independent committee. He did say he didn't think the government could afford more than 1%, trying to influence their decision. But that is not awarding anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
This is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I had Asian doctors all my life in Wales.
They were fantastic and served the community with dignity and respect.
Some of the comments about them "**** doctor" etc was ridiculous. Schoolboy stupid stuff. But for the most part people responded well and respected their profession and skin colour.
I think though it is true to say they didn't like small talk much... Don't blame them and often it was because they had limited cultural references to engage with people on.. so some Welsh people found this a bit rude. I never did.
I think this is a tired argument ... Tories have been in power for nearly 75% of the time since 1978. We have only has 13 years of a non Tory government in the last 42 including a run of the last 11 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
The NHS has a quota for qualified personnel from each individual country, depending on how dependent each one is upon home-grown medical staffQuote:
Originally Posted by Vindec
As it happens this is a subject I know something about. In recent years the quality of medical staff coming from abroad was excellent. Now it's less so in some cases. Hospital Trusts increasingly use Agencies to recruit staff particularly from Africa, India and the Phillipines. Before an applicant gets accepted they have to sit an English exam. Those coming from most Malaysian countries are generally excellent. The problem in some cases is that when the new recruits arrive at their allotted NHS Trust many can't speak English suggesting that others are taking the exam for them. The upshot is that Hospital Trusts have to send the new recruits for English lessons. The same goes for technical competence where the new staff require a lot of supervision, have little idea how to handle patients leading to the suspicion their qualifications maybe as suspect as their English tests. I think this issue was touched upon very subtly by an earlier poster.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
I emphasis that this is a relatively recent problem as up to fairly recent times the calibre of recruits was good and evidently the NHS couldn't survive without them.
The massive push to recruit staff is the issue here. The present government's desire to recruit 50000 nurses means that their recruitment standards have lowered. Had the government trained its own staff this issue would not have arisen. Their decision to cease bursaries a couple of years back hasn't helped and they have now reinstated them but too late.
However, as a general point and notwithstanding what is said above, it doesn't seem morally right for the UK to poach staff from countries whose need for medical staff is probably greater than ours.
Oh dear, here we are again. What the NHS Pay Review Body's remit involves is making recommendations that the government can choose to adhere to or ignore. It regularly does the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
Here's the 2020 Report Executive Summary: https://assets.publishing.service.go...Accessible.pdf
I'm not taking sides here but effectively the Tories could have said "bugger the recommendations, have a bonus" to thank medical staff for their frontline work during the pandemic. My understanding is there is/was noting legally to stop them doing so.
I agree completely that a strategy designed to take staff from developing nations is morally bankrupt but, just to repeat he point I made above, you have to remember the staff themselves mostly want to move to countries that pay more. That is why the US is so attractive with salaries often in excess of $600k for some specialisms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindec
I thin the real problem here is a lack of supply of trained medical staff worldwide. I wonder the extent to which the UK government is aware of this supply-side problem in the UK but actually plans for foreign-trained medical staff in its personpower assessments.
Thats incorrectQuote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
The government make recommendations to the pay body
The pay body make suggestions to the government
The government , Boris and his chancellor , then deciede
The Pay body makes recommendations to the government not the other way around but the final decision rests with the government which regularly ignores the results of the pay body. The only time I can recall the government accepting a pay body's recommendations is in relation to MPs pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
you can only begin to imagine how shocked I am to hear thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Vindec
If you could move to another country and get paid more for doing the same job, would you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindec
Instead of going through the whole process, couldn't they just have a video interview with each person before they sit their exam? A short conversation in English to weed out all the dodgy applicants. Wouldn't cost anything and would save on lessons..Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindec
Happens all the time with professionals going to the middle East for exampleQuote:
Originally Posted by dembethewarrior
Exactly. I don't see how it's immoral.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
3 percent then!!!
They know to have offered anything less woQuote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
uld have been explosive
Although some people think they should be grateful of having a job and stop complaining
Which is ironic considering they possibly saved the lives of these people or their loved ones
That's how tories think
Vermin
Steady on Major !Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Keeping on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Christ.
Id love for them to get a fair wage, but when does less tax more wages for the people who want it etc come to a head?
****ing hell. They get a wage increase. Know a few young ladies working in the health system, none of which yet moan about pay.. Must come with age.