Europe Covid Cases Increase

For so long during this crisis we've read how we may have got to wrong in opening up early , some scientist suggests are now sayihg it wax z good decision as we see longer lockdown countries spiking again,.

I wonder if the key to all this though was the decesion and gamble to fund vaccination well before others believed there would be one , l and deliver it and booster quicker than most.

Perhaps herd immunity is a thing when you consider our higher case numbers in the beginning of this outbreak??

This increase in continental Europe is what we are currently experiencing in the UK , and have done for a while.
There appears to be greater vaccine resistance there than here. Look at Austria.
Many of those countries also opened up much later than us. Whereas we had to benefit of outdoors meeting up for the summer they were too late for that, thus when they opened up it was mainly indoors, so covid rates increased.

The question wasn’t whether herd immunity was a thing, it was whether the benefits of the HI strategy outweighed the risks.
Sweden took a much more relaxed approach to lockdowns and restrictions at the start of the pandemic and if you compare their cases and deaths to their Scandinavian neighbours, they came off a lot worse.

Per 1mil people.
Norway: 45k cases, 186 deaths.
Finland: 32k cases, 226 deaths.
Sweden: 115k cases, 1459 deaths.

The UK has had more cases than other countries in Europe for a long time, it's only now that they're catching up to us.

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Originally Posted by Doucas

The UK has had more cases than other countries in Europe for a long time, it's only now that they're catching up to us.

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We had delta here before the summer which may have helped our cause, if most people are vaccinated or have had it already, maybe we are better placed to roll into winter time than those on mainland.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

For so long during this crisis we've read how we may have got to wrong in opening up early , some scientist suggests are now sayihg it wax z good decision as we see longer lockdown countries spiking again,.

I wonder if the key to all this though was the decesion and gamble to fund vaccination well before others believed there would be one , l and deliver it and booster quicker than most.

Perhaps herd immunity is a thing when you consider our higher case numbers in the beginning of this outbreak??

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We have the highest death rate of all the big countries in Europe. We just killed off a lot of the vulnerable early into the pandemic because of the idiotic refusal to shut down sooner.

I have mentioned it once, and nothing I've read or seen since hasn't convinced me that this pandemic has become totally politicised.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...rt-week-46.pdf

The attached isn't from an anonymous newspaper source, although to be fair, anything out of our government I put a set of Xmas tree lights on it, the attached I think is worth downloading and keeping safe for future reference, as some of the IMO important information in it, is being largely ignored by MSM and is probably of interest if you are 50 Years and older. And even more important if your are 60 years or older which includes myself, The link is from our Health Security Agency and thus, I think I've not shown any political bias towards varying sides of an endless information war, how you view the stats contained in it, is an individual choice, I'm hoping to be able to access this info on a weekly basis to monitor a trend.

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

I have mentioned it once, and nothing I've read or seen since hasn't convinced me that this pandemic has become totally politicised.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...rt-week-46.pdf

The attached isn't from an anonymous newspaper source, although to be fair, anything out of our government I put a set of Xmas tree lights on it, the attached I think is worth downloading and keeping safe for future reference, as some of the IMO important information in it, is being largely ignored by MSM and is probably of interest if you are 50 Years and older. And even more important if your are 60 years or older which includes myself, The link is from our Health Security Agency and thus, I think I've not shown any political bias towards varying sides of an endless information war, how you view the stats contained in it, is an individual choice, I'm hoping to be able to access this info on a weekly basis to monitor a trend.

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It is a detailed report , the big debate will soon be about mandatory vaccination in some countries and not us ,will those countries then impose no entry rules to the unvacacintaed .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

It is a detailed report , the big debate will soon be about mandatory vaccination in some countries and not us ,will those countries then impose no entry rules to the unvacacintaed .

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TBH, that wasn't my take away from the report although what you suggested from it I'd not rule out.

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

I have mentioned it once, and nothing I've read or seen since hasn't convinced me that this pandemic has become totally politicised.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...rt-week-46.pdf

The attached isn't from an anonymous newspaper source, although to be fair, anything out of our government I put a set of Xmas tree lights on it, the attached I think is worth downloading and keeping safe for future reference, as some of the IMO important information in it, is being largely ignored by MSM and is probably of interest if you are 50 Years and older. And even more important if your are 60 years or older which includes myself, The link is from our Health Security Agency and thus, I think I've not shown any political bias towards varying sides of an endless information war, how you view the stats contained in it, is an individual choice, I'm hoping to be able to access this info on a weekly basis to monitor a trend.

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Can you give a short summary on what’s in the link? Can’t view PDF’s on my phone easily.

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

Can you give a short summary on what’s in the link? Can’t view PDF’s on my phone easily.

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Attachment 4667
:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

…..some of the IMO important information in it, is being largely ignored by MSM and is probably of interest if you are 50 Years and older.

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What important information is being ignored by mainstream media? Give us a clue.

My hypothesis is that herd immunity (mainly via vaccinations) is a huge factor but we have to consider how many of our infections are breakthrough infections or caught by people who had covid before.

I do wonder if opening up in the summer show the benefits of ventilation and possibly UV light from the Sun?

Though my concern is what if we have to lockdown because of people who are unvaccinated getting it and ending up taking up hospital beds? Would be annoying for them to drag us down with them. I would imagine the vaccinated people in Austria hating the unvaccinated.

Also on a sympathetic level, it would be sad to see some people get the virus (and possibly go to hospital) via the breakthrough infections

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

What important information is being ignored by mainstream media? Give us a clue.

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Page 21, and putting aside other anecdotal info in the report, the data is that, if you have been vaccinated then you are in a higher likely hood of being a fatal case if contacting covid-19 (for people my age), I think this is quite a significant finding in the report and worthy of news, now I didn’t say it has been ignored but largely ignored, it can be found in searches if you are looking for this information and using duck duck go, I have no idea if using google. I’m sure for the majority of people it’s of not much deal either way, for me it’s a massive issue, we are supposed be given informed consent, by coincidence I have been in recent (very recent) discussion with the doctors who treated me 10 years ago, I now have the images of my brain and the report of the diagnosis, this report is (it might have already been) being submitted to the BMJ for publication as what happened to myself was very unusual, also noting that I have lived a relatively normal life with Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis for 10 years, in addition to this, at 21 was struck down with Guillan Barre Syndrome and was partially paralysed for a period of time, (even having to learn to walk again in the swimming pool at the Heath) these things are not easily removed or forgotten from my life, the past two years have been devastating for the families of many 1,000’s who have lost their loved ones, but with the onset of these vaccines and from the beginning have read just about anything I could read and it’s become an obsession and confusing, in this thread you can see the nastiness creeping in, we now live in a world in where it’s best to keep it a secret if you have not been vaccinated, I have been ramping down (but not stopping completely) my time out the house and not going to see my son last night was devastating for me and was the 1st time it really really hit home, and if that wasn’t enough, Doris wouldn’t go without me, and I’m anticipating I’ll soon be out of a job, life is pretty shit at the moment, for all of us I must add, after two years of the Johnson and his mates at No. 10 assisted by the no opposition Red Mob, (and I did get behind his, we are following the science) at the start, listened to his 17.00 press conferences to the nation, are we not due an alternative view to a path out of this? World revered scientists are not even allowed to discus it without being shouted down, cancelled, and being called conspiracists. It’s been a bit surreal in the house with our son being + recently, Doris was following me around everywhere with hand gel and I was worrying myself about her (she has been double vaxed) as she’s a couple of years older and whilst not having the stats then, had read about them. You might remember I was quite ill at the very start of this pandemic but put it down to the normal flu, but maybe I had it then, I’ve been surrounded by it at work but as yet have not had anything else, I do wonder if I got a bit of natural immunity, the last PCR test I had I did sign to have the antibody test bit

On the positive side, there is always a seat in the port for me, and free beer all night. And I can watch the city on the box every week.

To put it quite simply, I’m more frightened of taking the vaccine (and not meaning the needle) than catching C19 and if it ever does take me out, it was my decision. Maybe it seems silly to most, but knowing, having been scanned two years ago that the clot is still present and the evidence is irrefutable that these vaccines can cause blood clots, with the AZ being specifically linked to CVST, my heads in the shed, and self-esteem is pretty low at the moment.

There’s your clue and I know you’ll see it differently.
A pretty shitty flounce but a flounce.
as I'm off to hide in a cave for a while or a bit longer.

if you have been vaccinated then you are in a higher likely hood of being a fatal case if contacting covid-19, are you 60-69 HB? Are they saying that 373 out of 548 died of covid were vaccinated (151 weren’t)?

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Originally Posted by goats

if you have been vaccinated then you are in a higher likely hood of being a fatal case if contacting covid-19, are you 60-69 HB? Are they saying that 373 out of 548 died of covid were vaccinated (151 weren’t)?

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That’s because so many more vulnerable people are vaccinated though. It’s like saying 99% of people who die in car crashes are seatbelt wearers, it doesn’t mean not wearing your seat belt would make you more safe.

This is why statistics aren’t good in the hands of people who don’t understand them. If someone is using that source as a source to back up why being unvaccinated is safer then I’ve honesty never seen anything more wrong.

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

TBH, that wasn't my take away from the report although what you suggested from it I'd not rule out.

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Is your take away that you think being vaccinated makes you more likely to die of Covid?

I’ve just read this:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...rt-week-46.pdf

This is about as much evidence for being vaccinated as you could want. If someone is reading this as a source for being unvaccinated I’m at a loss as to why. All evidence points to the vaccines working and it’s summarised in this document.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

That’s because so many more vulnerable people are vaccinated though. It’s like saying 99% of people who die in car crashes are seatbelt wearers, it doesn’t mean not wearing your seat belt would make you more safe.

This is why statistics aren’t good in the hands of people who don’t understand them. If someone is using that source as a source to back up why being unvaccinated is safer then I’ve honesty never seen anything more wrong.

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Spot on, a massive misunderstanding of the data.
For reference, 91.6% of 60-69 yr olds are vaccinated.

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

Spot on, a massive misunderstanding of the data.
For reference, 91.6% of 60-69 yr olds are vaccinated.

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It’s the “plandemic” thread all over again. Someone misunderstanding the most basic of data and thinking it makes them enlightened.

It’s even written in the actual report ffs, in the sun notes on the bottom of page 21.

The only way these numbers should be surprising is if you thought the vaccine made people immortal.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

That’s because so many more vulnerable people are vaccinated though. It’s like saying 99% of people who die in car crashes are seatbelt wearers, it doesn’t mean not wearing your seat belt would make you more safe.

This is why statistics aren’t good in the hands of people who don’t understand them. If someone is using that source as a source to back up why being unvaccinated is safer then I’ve honesty never seen anything more wrong.

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I know, deaths could be way more if unvaccinated. The vulnerable groups will always be higher until there is 100% cure.

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

Spot on, a massive misunderstanding of the data.
For reference, 91.6% of 60-69 yr olds are vaccinated.

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So 8.4% of 60-69 are unvaccinated yet 27.5% of deaths in that age range were unvaccinated people. That should be the big take away from looking at that report.

If you’re over 50 and unvaccinated you should be worried. It’s airbags and seatbelts all over again, survivorship bias and misunderstanding statistics backing up an incorrect and unsafe view.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

That’s because so many more vulnerable people are vaccinated though. It’s like saying 99% of people who die in car crashes are seatbelt wearers, it doesn’t mean not wearing your seat belt would make you more safe.

This is why statistics aren’t good in the hands of people who don’t understand them. If someone is using that source as a source to back up why being unvaccinated is safer then I’ve honesty never seen anything more wrong.

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Yeah there's not enough information here to conclude that the vaccine gives a higher likelihood of death in that age group. Older people are more likely to die on pretty much all metrics.

If the numbers are 151 deaths of 500,000 unvaccinated people and 373 deaths of 5,000,000 vaccinated people then that tells a different story. I just made those numbers up, but that's what you need to know.

I've only looked at the table, I haven't read the whole report (to be honest, I didn't even read all of heathblues post) but I don't think that is the correct conclusion.

:hehe: print that report off and put it in a safe, it could be very useful when Savid Javid bursts though your kitchen wall with a 5ft syringe.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

:hehe: print that report off and put it in a safe, it could be very useful when Savid Javid bursts though your kitchen wall with a 5ft syringe.

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It is a worry that even now in some health setting where those very vulnerable are and likely heading this winter we unvaccinated care and health workers .

The difference between our approach and others who have a mandatory approach is stark ,which perhaps doesn't match the bursting through the kitchen wall with a syringe analogy like Steve Tyler "singing jab this way" .

PS : I like Javid concerned comment over the weekend about how the health industry should ensure they test equipment before it coming to market , like the oximeter , where they now say the reading on darker skins are not as accurate as on white skin ,and that is life threating as it measures oxygen in the blood .

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

Page 21, and putting aside other anecdotal info in the report, the data is that, if you have been vaccinated then you are in a higher likely hood of being a fatal case if contacting covid-19 (for people my age), I think this is quite a significant finding in the report and worthy of news, now I didn’t say it has been ignored but largely ignored, it can be found in searches if you are looking for this information and using duck duck go, I have no idea if using google. I’m sure for the majority of people it’s of not much deal either way, for me it’s a massive issue, we are supposed be given informed consent, by coincidence I have been in recent (very recent) discussion with the doctors who treated me 10 years ago, I now have the images of my brain and the report of the diagnosis, this report is (it might have already been) being submitted to the BMJ for publication as what happened to myself was very unusual, also noting that I have lived a relatively normal life with Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis for 10 years, in addition to this, at 21 was struck down with Guillan Barre Syndrome and was partially paralysed for a period of time, (even having to learn to walk again in the swimming pool at the Heath) these things are not easily removed or forgotten from my life, the past two years have been devastating for the families of many 1,000’s who have lost their loved ones, but with the onset of these vaccines and from the beginning have read just about anything I could read and it’s become an obsession and confusing, in this thread you can see the nastiness creeping in, we now live in a world in where it’s best to keep it a secret if you have not been vaccinated, I have been ramping down (but not stopping completely) my time out the house and not going to see my son last night was devastating for me and was the 1st time it really really hit home, and if that wasn’t enough, Doris wouldn’t go without me, and I’m anticipating I’ll soon be out of a job, life is pretty shit at the moment, for all of us I must add, after two years of the Johnson and his mates at No. 10 assisted by the no opposition Red Mob, (and I did get behind his, we are following the science) at the start, listened to his 17.00 press conferences to the nation, are we not due an alternative view to a path out of this? World revered scientists are not even allowed to discus it without being shouted down, cancelled, and being called conspiracists. It’s been a bit surreal in the house with our son being + recently, Doris was following me around everywhere with hand gel and I was worrying myself about her (she has been double vaxed) as she’s a couple of years older and whilst not having the stats then, had read about them. You might remember I was quite ill at the very start of this pandemic but put it down to the normal flu, but maybe I had it then, I’ve been surrounded by it at work but as yet have not had anything else, I do wonder if I got a bit of natural immunity, the last PCR test I had I did sign to have the antibody test bit

On the positive side, there is always a seat in the port for me, and free beer all night. And I can watch the city on the box every week.

To put it quite simply, I’m more frightened of taking the vaccine (and not meaning the needle) than catching C19 and if it ever does take me out, it was my decision. Maybe it seems silly to most, but knowing, having been scanned two years ago that the clot is still present and the evidence is irrefutable that these vaccines can cause blood clots, with the AZ being specifically linked to CVST, my heads in the shed, and self-esteem is pretty low at the moment.

There’s your clue and I know you’ll see it differently.
A pretty shitty flounce but a flounce.
as I'm off to hide in a cave for a while or a bit longer.

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As others have said, unless I’ve missed something obvious, I think you’re not taking into account the sample sizes involved - all versions of the vaccine aren’t one hundred per cent effective, so there are always going to be some with no underlying conditions who still end up getting a sever enough case of Covid to kill them who have been double jabbed and, logically, that number would increase as you went through the age groups.

That said, although I’m definitely in the get vaccinated camp, your case shows that this subject is not as straightforward as people like me like to think it is. I honestly don’t know what I would do in your position - you have my sympathy because yours is definitely a situation with an awful lot of grey area to it. You say you have been in very recent discussion with the doctor who treated you ten years ago, did he have an opinion on what you should do?

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Page 21, and putting aside other anecdotal info in the report, the data is that, if you have been vaccinated then you are in a higher likely hood of being a fatal case if contacting covid-19 (for people my age)

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This is what winds me up about conspiracy theorists. This is dangerously wrong.

I assume it’s just a basic misunderstanding of the stats but using this to make a decision on something that can affect your own health is a bit daft (unless you have a condition stopping you getting vaccinated - which I think is a minute number of people) but then spreading it where vulnerable people get taken in by it is dangerous and stupid.

As posted above unvaccinated people are dying at a much greater percentage than vaccinated people. Using the date on that exact page.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

As others have said, unless I’ve missed something obvious, I think you’re not taking into account the sample sizes involved - all versions of the vaccine aren’t one hundred per cent effective, so there are always going to be some with no underlying conditions who still end up getting a sever enough case of Covid to kill them who have been double jabbed and, logically, that number would increase as you went through the age groups.

That said, although I’m definitely in the get vaccinated camp, your case shows that this subject is not as straightforward as people like me like to think it is. I honestly don’t know what I would do in your position - you have my sympathy because yours is definitely a situation with an awful lot of grey area to it. You say you have been in very recent discussion with the doctor who treated you ten years ago, did he have an opinion on what you should do?

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I’m so glad you wrote this TOBW because it’s very true and I’ve been wondering how to respond to HB’s post and the obvious stress his condition is putting him through as well as thinking how to communicate some more regarding the grey areas you correctly allude to.

For those of us with autoimmune diseases it’s been very stressful. First the disease is a huge threat, then the treatments, then the virus and then there’re the vaccines.

HB, you’ve been very candid about your situation and it’s clearly causing you distress. I can really understand this as you’ve already experienced partial paralysis with Guillain-Barré syndrome which is an autoimmune disease and closely related to Progressive Multiple Sclerosis (which is what I have) and hell yeah, it’s scary stuff to have to make these decisions. I don’t think you’re a conspiracy theorist - you’ve, in your own words, read just about anything you could read and it’s become an obsession and confusing. You’ve also got the added stress of an MRI which has shown the clot which is related to the Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis is still there.

This is hard sh*t to deal with and, unless you (or someone close to you) is living with these choices, then it’s hard to understand. People don’t mean to be, but sometimes they can appear to be blasé about things unless or until they’ve been through them.

HB, you have to speak to your Neurologist and talk this through with them. It’s going to drive you nuts if you keep going on like this and the stress is something you really don’t need. You need a calm discussion with them, express your concerns and seek clarification regarding the risk factors. Something that helped me when I had to consent to disease modifying drug infusions was talking to a Liaison Psychiatrist, they can help you make decisions about your condition, treatment, risks and how it effects you. Ask your Neurologist or GP for a referral.

You do need to talk to a professional though as you may find that worrying, being house-bound and fearful at every turn could be more of a danger to you than the vaccine itself.

It's a long read but worth it to help understand the problems with autoimmune diseases and vaccinations.

Michele Brown was vaccinated - but had a suppressed immune system. Would better health advice have saved her?

Full Disclosure: I've been triple vaccinated now and have an autoimmune disease. I was having infusions of Disease Modifying Drugs (DMDs) every month prior to lockdown. This was stopped during lockdown due to the risks of Covid19 and the risks of the DMDs (targeting specific cells and affecting antibodies) and so as of today there is no further treatment for me due to the gaps of lockdown and the risks of starting from scratch again.

There was and still is a lot we don't know about vaccination and autoimmune diseases. Advice has been pretty poor and I'm lucky I am able to make decisions about my own situation and condition due to my background in pharmacology. I'm keeping this thread going because it's important to understand that there are many 'outside-of-the-bellcurve' conditions that do not fall neatly into the vaccination narrative.