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Great away support yesterday
I only manage a few away games each season (usually in London or the Birmingham area), but it never ceases to amaze me the support we get away from home. Yesterday was a great example - the away end was rammed, and the fans were having to stand in the stairways (which surely is against all ground regulations?). There was plenty of room to make the away area a bit bigger, but they chose not to - strange. Great singing, all through the game (okay, it went a bit quiet after the second goal), and some friendly banter with the locals in the corner just to our right. The service in the bars was woeful, with just a couple of ladies trying to cope with a packed concourse.
Luckily, before the match, we'd had a couple of pints in The Old Crown pub in the Digbeth area, not far from the ground. Digbeth is full of old warehouses and empty lots, and also houses much of Birmingham's night-life. The Old Crown is a wobbly-looking half-timbered old building with a huge covered backlot behind, and it was chock full of Birmingham fans. No problems at all, though some kind gent did point out I should maybe take my hat off. I'd forgotten there was a Bluebird badge pinned to the front.
Just like to say I also enjoyed walking around the city centre. I know Birmingham is ten times the size of Cardiff, but the size and variety of shops in and around the Bull Ring was a bit of an eye-opener. Still, glad to be home, and a good point well-earned!
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Re: Great away support yesterday
They are restricting away
capacity due to redevelopment ?
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Re: Great away support yesterday
There didn't seem to be any development going on that I could see. Watch the footage - there's plenty of room to expand the away area. All the seating areas in the lower reaches of the stands were empty and covered in canvas adverts. They could have given us the whole stand if they'd wanted to.
This is not the first time this season I've heard 'away capacity reduced due to development'. Getting to be a bit of a cop-out, I reckon.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tforturton
I only manage a few away games each season (usually in London or the Birmingham area), but it never ceases to amaze me the support we get away from home. Yesterday was a great example - the away end was rammed, and the fans were having to stand in the stairways (which surely is against all ground regulations?). There was plenty of room to make the away area a bit bigger, but they chose not to - strange. Great singing, all through the game (okay, it went a bit quiet after the second goal), and some friendly banter with the locals in the corner just to our right. The service in the bars was woeful, with just a couple of ladies trying to cope with a packed concourse.
Luckily, before the match, we'd had a couple of pints in The Old Crown pub in the Digbeth area, not far from the ground. Digbeth is full of old warehouses and empty lots, and also houses much of Birmingham's night-life. The Old Crown is a wobbly-looking half-timbered old building with a huge covered backlot behind, and it was chock full of Birmingham fans. No problems at all, though some kind gent did point out I should maybe take my hat off. I'd forgotten there was a Bluebird badge pinned to the front.
Just like to say I also enjoyed walking around the city centre. I know Birmingham is ten times the size of Cardiff, but the size and variety of shops in and around the Bull Ring was a bit of an eye-opener. Still, glad to be home, and a good point well-earned!
Why is it that we seem to make the experience for the away fans as pleasant as possible and rarely get the same in return?
I wonder if other teams' away fans are treated as badly.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
tforturton
There didn't seem to be any development going on that I could see. Watch the footage - there's plenty of room to expand the away area. All the seating areas in the lower reaches of the stands were empty and covered in canvas adverts. They could have given us the whole stand if they'd wanted to.
This is not the first time this season I've heard 'away capacity reduced due to development'. Getting to be a bit of a cop-out, I reckon.
The bottom tiers of the right hand side stand and opposite stand are closed due to being structurally unsafe because of damaged steelwork. It’s been closed all season and all the visiting teams have had reduced allocations, nothing to do with secretly limiting Cardiff’s support.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
The bottom tiers of the right hand side stand and opposite stand are closed due to being structurally unsafe because of damaged steelwork. It’s been closed all season and all the visiting teams have had reduced allocations, nothing to do with secretly limiting Cardiff’s support.
I think that we were given more tickets than anyone else has had there all season as they are slowly increasing capacity there as some of the work gets completed.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
I didn’t know Birmingham was 10 times the size of cardiff, 5 million people in brum?
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Cardiff fans corralled and bottlenecked into confined space as police force a blockade and stop people exiting the stadium. The police line stopped fans from dispersing into a larger but also confined away coach park. No need to create such a tense situation.
Meant there was some confrontation and raised batons.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
goats
I didn’t know Birmingham was 10 times the size of cardiff, 5 million people in brum?
Cardiff 300,000. Birmingham 3m.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Morris
Cardiff fans corralled and bottlenecked into confined space as police force a blockade and stop people exiting the stadium. The police line stopped fans from dispersing into a larger but also confined away coach park. No need to create such a tense situation.
Meant there was some confrontation and raised batons.
...and in a largely unlit area under the stands. Too dark to video what was going on. It could have kicked off very badly. Totally unnecessary for WMP to hold us back and it did get a bit tense as the City fans began pushing against their lines. Almost like medieval warfare at one point. Talking to a copper, the official reason for the police lines was "to allow rival crews to disperse". As it was "managed retreat" by the WMP was the way forward. For us, anyway.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tforturton
Cardiff 300,000. Birmingham 3m.
Cardiff hasn’t been 300,000 for a long time…
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Depends how you count population (what boundaries - city council wards or wider district) and what source you use - some rely on 2011 census, others on more recent data.
2010 data from a range of UK population sources has Cardiff anywhere between 310,000 and 447,000. Birmingham anywhere between under 900,000 and well over 1.2 million.
These are just three that don't agree with each other. There are loads.
http://www.ukcities.co.uk/populations/
https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...united-kingdom
http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html
But Birmingham is at least 3x the population of Cardiff.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
A lot of building flats in brownfield sites and massive expansion going on now to the north west and north east of the city. Aiming to add a quarter to the population allegedly
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
Outside of London Birmingham together with Greater Manchester , Glasgow , Leeds etc are the main urban centres in the UK
It's big but it's not ten times bigger
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
MacAdder
Why is it that we seem to make the experience for the away fans as pleasant as possible and rarely get the same in return?
I wonder if other teams' away fans are treated as badly.
Logic would indicate we make money selling tickets to away fans, programme sales, food and drink. We don't make money on our fans at away games.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
goats
A lot of building flats in brownfield sites and massive expansion going on now to the north west and north east of the city. Aiming to add a quarter to the population allegedly
Cardiff or Birmingham ?
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Our great away support is never in doubt
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Does anyone remember Birmingham away 85 ?
And 95 come to think of it 🤔
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
A Quiet Monkfish
Cardiff or Birmingham ?
Cardiff. The councils plan was to expand the city’s population by a quarter by 2030 I believe.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Does anyone remember Birmingham away 85 ?
And 95 come to think of it ��
It’s always been a bit lively with them, nowhere near now as bad as it was in the 80’s
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
goats
It’s always been a bit lively with them, nowhere near now as bad as it was in the 80’s
The Paul Millar wonder goal game was a bit spicy
I don't setting fire to their union jack went down well
Or trying to demolish their away end
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The Paul Millar wonder goal game was a bit spicy
I don't setting fire to their union jack went down well
Or trying to demolish their away end
I think it was 1989 I first went, midweek. Some of our fans left and went out the ground to try and get into the home end turnstiles, that didn’t go down to well with them either….
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
goats
I think it was 1989 I first went, midweek. Some of our fans left and went out the ground to try and get into the home end turnstiles, that didn’t go down to well with them either….
I remember it well
We were in a supporters club bus and the driver decided to park right outside the main gates
We suggested he moved
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
goats
Cardiff. The councils plan was to expand the city’s population by a quarter by 2030 I believe.
All coming into Cardiff along Llantrisant Road. Until they turn it into a bus-only/cycle route that is !
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Morris
Cardiff fans corralled and bottlenecked into confined space as police force a blockade and stop people exiting the stadium. The police line stopped fans from dispersing into a larger but also confined away coach park. No need to create such a tense situation.
Meant there was some confrontation and raised batons.
I'm glad you and IanD raised issues about this. I've written to BCFC and the WMP regarding this and I've asked for a copy of their Risk Assessment. I spend a lot of time as a disability rights advocate and activist and this was pretty scary stuff.
I was on crutches, there was a young lad in front of me using a walking frame and others around who were mobility-challenged. The club stewards had been fantastic and helpful but the situation we found ourselves in at the end when leaving the ground was unacceptable and dangerous e.g. as IanD pointed out, it was dark, we were on a fairly steep upward incline for those with mobility issues, there were surges of people from the back and we had no communication as to how long we were going to be kept there.
When we finally started moving through we were confronted by a police blockade. There was one young lad with autism pleading with a policeman 'please don't make me go back into the crowd' and visibly distressed.
It's not a situation that abled-bodied people and kids should be in let alone, disabled supporters. I'm shocked that in 2021 football supporters are still being dangerously corralled like we were on Saturday.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IanD
...and in a largely unlit area under the stands. Too dark to video what was going on. It could have kicked off very badly. Totally unnecessary for WMP to hold us back and it did get a bit tense as the City fans began pushing against their lines. Almost like medieval warfare at one point. Talking to a copper, the official reason for the police lines was "to allow rival crews to disperse". As it was "managed retreat" by the WMP was the way forward. For us, anyway.
Thanks for highlighting this. I'm interested in how they risk-assessed this scenario.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Thanks for highlighting this. I'm interested in how they risk-assessed this scenario.
After some pleading, a wheelchair user and helper were allowed through the police lines with a ripple of applause from those who could see than common sense prevailed. I've worked with autistic students and know full well how unfamiar changes in situation can cause stress (and, indeed violent outbursts). There were families with small kids in the mix, too. As was rightly pointed out by our fans, if the police had allowed our supporters at least up onto the coach park, hundreds could have got on to the buses and eased the pressure. But it wasn't to be. Also, closing Bordesley station after the match meant fans were either having to walk the Digbeth corridor or wait for a bus...if one came. It's about a 30 minute walk from St Andrews to New Street ir Moor Street. Not so good if you are elderley, infirm or with nippers. Having WBA and Birmingham kick off at the same time, and with fans on the same train line, was daft in the first place. Simple risk assessment would dictate one match kicks off say 1.00pm and the other 3.00pm just to spread fans out. Or one Saturday KO, one Sunday. As it was, two matches kicking off at the same time/Christmas market/Christmas shoppers/train and bus chaos. And the A46 over Coventry way was closed for bridge replacement. There were even some Wolves fans on our train, coming back from Manchester, as their match had kicked off early. Walsall were at home, too. Clearly there was no communication between WMP and Heddlu spotters, either, re station closure as they didn't know what was going on. Was there really a need to have batons drawn? Zulus?
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Our fans have to take some of the blame. I was stood at the back of the crowd and the entire area underneath the stand was empty. The whole area we were restricted to could’ve comfortably accommodated probably 5000 people without issue yet 90% of our fans wanted to crowd together and push towards the police.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
Our fans have to take some of the blame. I was stood at the back of the crowd and the entire area underneath the stand was empty. The whole area we were restricted to could’ve comfortably accommodated probably 5000 people without issue yet 90% of our fans wanted to crowd together and push towards the police.
I was at the front, some of the first out, and very surprised there was a police line towards the top of the slope. One of the senior coppers had a bullhorn, who could hardly be heard, imploring us to wait. Not much fun standing on a slope, in the dark, with well over a thousand City fans backing up behind. It was no suprise there was a bit if pushing. Many just wanted to get on the coaches just a few feet away. Mismanaged (?) by WMP to the point that it looked like a situation was deliberately being set up to allow for a bit of a taffy-bashing. Indeed, years ago, I worked with an ex WMP officer who was candid in saying that they would go out of their way to wind up the Welsh at matches. Our fault...nope.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IanD
I was at the front, some of the first out, and very surprised there was a police line towards the top of the slope. One of the senior coppers had a bullhorn, who could hardly be heard, imploring us to wait. Not much fun standing on a slope, in the dark, with well over a thousand City fans backing up behind. It was no suprise there was a bit if pushing. Many just wanted to get on the coaches just a few feet away. Mismanaged (?) by WMP to the point that it looked like a situation was deliberately being set up to allow for a bit of a taffy-bashing. Indeed, years ago, I worked with an ex WMP officer who was candid in saying that they would go out of their way to wind up the Welsh at matches. Our fault...nope.
There was nothing stopping our fans from standing on flat ground, in the light under the stand.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
There was nothing stopping our fans from standing on flat ground, in the light under the stand.
The thing is, we didn't know we needed to do this or that it was an option otherwise, speaking for myself, I'd have done what you suggest. However, any risk assessment would have to have taken the actual scenario I found myself in into consideration. By the time I was jammed into the crowd (on crutches), there was no way back. I didn't hear any announcement from anyone (IanD mentioned there was a policeman with a bullhorn but I didn't hear it) and anyway, by the time we were corralled it was too late (that's how corralling works) - we were already stuck. If I had fallen at the point of a surge, then serious damage would have been done or worse. Others would have fallen over me, all in the dark with no medics around.
I understand that fans pushing from the back would have contributed but I wouldn't 'blame' anyone in that scenario because they didn't know we were blocked off. In fact, I didn't see the police, all I saw were gates. I didn't even realise the extent of the police presence or that they were the cause of the bottleneck until I got past the gates.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IanD
After some pleading, a wheelchair user and helper were allowed through the police lines with a ripple of applause from those who could see than common sense prevailed. I've worked with autistic students and know full well how unfamiar changes in situation can cause stress (and, indeed violent outbursts). There were families with small kids in the mix, too. As was rightly pointed out by our fans, if the police had allowed our supporters at least up onto the coach park, hundreds could have got on to the buses and eased the pressure. But it wasn't to be. Also, closing Bordesley station after the match meant fans were either having to walk the Digbeth corridor or wait for a bus...if one came. It's about a 30 minute walk from St Andrews to New Street ir Moor Street. Not so good if you are elderley, infirm or with nippers. Having WBA and Birmingham kick off at the same time, and with fans on the same train line, was daft in the first place. Simple risk assessment would dictate one match kicks off say 1.00pm and the other 3.00pm just to spread fans out. Or one Saturday KO, one Sunday. As it was, two matches kicking off at the same time/Christmas market/Christmas shoppers/train and bus chaos. And the A46 over Coventry way was closed for bridge replacement. There were even some Wolves fans on our train, coming back from Manchester, as their match had kicked off early. Walsall were at home, too. Clearly there was no communication between WMP and Heddlu spotters, either, re station closure as they didn't know what was going on. Was there really a need to have batons drawn? Zulus?
Yes, New Street had a mix of supporters by the time we got back and I did have to walk too (we shared a cab with a top Birmingham supporter and his two sons on the way to the ground we'd got chatting to while waiting at the taxi rank) but there was no chance of a cab, the traffic was crazy, no trains back to the city centre. I may have missed an announcement but if they'd just asked us to stay in our seats at the end of the match we would have been happy to do that.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
There was nothing stopping our fans from standing on flat ground, in the light under the stand.
....apart from a double line of WMP at the top of the slope! They had the high ground.It seemed like a late WMP decision to form the line right in front of the first fans coming out. By then, anyone wanting to leave was already on the slope, in the dark.....with hundreds piling up behind, some of whom happened to be under the stands in lit areas. I shudder to think what would have happened if people at the front turned round and pushed downhill just to wait on the flat. Never going to happen, thankfully. Hence a bit of argy bargy at the front and a few coppers with their batons out. Had we walked out, got on coaches, dispersed as in the past (alright, that's not always been the case).....no problem.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IanD
....apart from a double line of WMP at the top of the slope! They had the high ground.It seemed like a late WMP decision to form the line right in front of the first fans coming out. By then, anyone wanting to leave was already on the slope, in the dark.....with hundreds piling up behind, some of whom happened to be under the stands in lit areas. I shudder to think what would have happened if people at the front turned round and pushed downhill just to wait on the flat. Never going to happen, thankfully. Hence a bit of argy bargy at the front and a few coppers with their batons out. Had we walked out, got on coaches, dispersed as in the past (alright, that's not always been the case).....no problem.
I think your missing my point. I’m not saying people should’ve stood in the car park with the coaches but underneath the stand. There were no coppers in the way back down to the area I was stood. We were kept back for what? 20mins? The police aren’t gonna move just because fans ask them to so with a bit of common sense people at the back could’ve stopped trying to push their way through a non moving crowd. After a couple minutes it was apparent that the crowd weren’t being allowed through so why keep trying to get further forward?
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
I think your missing my point. I’m not saying people should’ve stood in the car park with the coaches but underneath the stand. There were no coppers in the way back down to the area I was stood. We were kept back for what? 20mins? The police aren’t gonna move just because fans ask them to so with a bit of common sense people at the back could’ve stopped trying to push their way through a non moving crowd. After a couple minutes it was apparent that the crowd weren’t being allowed through so why keep trying to get further forward?
Coaches were just a few feet away. It would have been very easy to allow the crowd to get on the coaches if they had so desired. People just wanted to get home. Quite how high the risk of post match confrontation was between fans is a matter of debate. It was noticeable that there were no burger vans outside the away end and the fact that trains were not allowed to stop at Bordesley (information to that effect given out on arrival at Bordesley) implies that WMP had already decided to make post match dispersal difficult for City fans. The tannoy system was unintelligible as far as I was concerned so, maybe, a "stay where you are at the end of the match" announcement was made. That's an issue for BCFC. Thankfully, no-one was hurt and batons weren't used. Just a bit of unnecessary confrontation.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
I have to admit, though we were stuck in the crowd under the stand after the game, it's something I've experienced many times, travelling with the City, so I wasn't that bothered. But I can see how disabled people would have found it distressing.
When I finally got to the road, and saw a row of police motorbikes jammed together, to force the crowd to go through a narrow gap lined with jutting handbags and pedals, I did wonder if it wasn't all deliberate.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
It’s very rare for the City away end to exit a ground without some form of crush whether aggravated by the local police or not. Obviously it seems the WMP didn’t help. I would advise anyone who doesn’t want to get caught up in this to just hang back a few minutes.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
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Originally Posted by
Dave Blue
It’s very rare for the City away end to exit a ground without some form of crush whether aggravated by the local police or not. Obviously it seems the WMP didn’t help. I would advise anyone who doesn’t want to get caught up in this to just hang back a few minutes.
Good advice. I think had we lost I would have sat back longer but getting that equaliser in the dying minute or so the subsequent high was a rush to the head and we didn't think it through!
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IanD
Coaches were just a few feet away. It would have been very easy to allow the crowd to get on the coaches if they had so desired. People just wanted to get home. Quite how high the risk of post match confrontation was between fans is a matter of debate. It was noticeable that there were no burger vans outside the away end and the fact that trains were not allowed to stop at Bordesley (information to that effect given out on arrival at Bordesley) implies that WMP had already decided to make post match dispersal difficult for City fans. The tannoy system was unintelligible as far as I was concerned so, maybe, a "stay where you are at the end of the match" announcement was made. That's an issue for BCFC. Thankfully, no-one was hurt and batons weren't used. Just a bit of unnecessary confrontation.
I don’t disagree that it would’ve been easier to let fans onto the coaches and I think it was the wrong decision to not allow it. However people are talking as if WMP crammed 2000 City fans into a space for 1000. In reality they didn’t stop anyone from returning to the concourse or even into the stands. There was loads of space behind the packed in fans and common sense should tell you if there’s a police line, pushing and shoving isn’t going to get you past. As for people at the back not knowing about the police line, if the crowd has been at a standstill for 5/10mins then again common sense would tell you there’s a reason people aren’t moving forwards and again, pushing and shoving won’t achieve anything.
If there was a second line of police at the back of the crowd then fair enough, but nothing was stopping people from leaving the crowd/crush.
I don’t know who has a say in running the local trains in Brum so can’t comment on whether or not it was WMP at fault for that.
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Re: Great away support yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Canton Kev
I don’t disagree that it would’ve been easier to let fans onto the coaches and I think it was the wrong decision to not allow it. However people are talking as if WMP crammed 2000 City fans into a space for 1000. In reality they didn’t stop anyone from returning to the concourse or even into the stands. There was loads of space behind the packed in fans and common sense should tell you if there’s a police line, pushing and shoving isn’t going to get you past. As for people at the back not knowing about the police line, if the crowd has been at a standstill for 5/10mins then again common sense would tell you there’s a reason people aren’t moving forwards and again, pushing and shoving won’t achieve anything.
If there was a second line of police at the back of the crowd then fair enough, but nothing was stopping people from leaving the crowd/crush.
I don’t know who has a say in running the local trains in Brum so can’t comment on whether or not it was WMP at fault for that.
The thing is Kev, if common sense prevailed we'd never need risk assessments in the first place. All scenarios have to be taken into consideration. There was no way I could have turned back. I should have just hung back, but I didn't. There still shouldn't be any serious risk as there was on Saturday. Just because these things happen the way they do doesn't mean we should put up with it until something really bad happens. We've seen appaling risk assessments even as recently as the Euro final at Wembley. You're right to highlight that people shouldn't push forward, it's an important message. Generally, when disasters happen, it's never down to one incident though and is nearly always a catalogue of connected errors leading up to it.
