17,384 Million Pounds

That's what the UK borrowed in just thirty days of November 2021.

Seventeen thousand million pounds.

That's £579,000,000 a day. £24,000,000 an hour. £402,000 a minute. £7,000 a second.

Merry Christmas one and all!

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...t-budget-value

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's what the UK borrowed in just thirty days of November 2021.

Seventeen thousand million pounds.

That's £579,000,000 a day. £24,000,000 an hour. £402,000 a minute. £7,000 a second.

Merry Christmas one and all!

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...t-budget-value

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No need to worry about high interest rates for a couple of decades

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's what the UK borrowed in just thirty days of November 2021.

Seventeen thousand million pounds.

That's £579,000,000 a day. £24,000,000 an hour. £402,000 a minute. £7,000 a second.

Merry Christmas one and all!

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...t-budget-value

---

That's over 10 times what we were borrowing at the time of the 2010 general election, when a Conservative party in opposition said we were borrowing too much and went on an austerity drive.

So, for all the jobs that were lost due to austerity, the services we lost due to austerity, the pay freezes that affected many people due to austerity, and we're borrowing 10 times fecking more? Even with the cost of Covid, any claims that the Tories are the only party who know how to run the economy must be filed under 'Total Bullshit'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

That's over 10 times what we were borrowing at the time of the 2010 general election, when a Conservative party in opposition said we were borrowing too much and went on an austerity drive.

So, for all the jobs that were lost due to austerity, the services we lost due to austerity, the pay freezes that affected many people due to austerity, and we're borrowing 10 times fecking more? Even with the cost of Covid, any claims that the Tories are the only party who know how to run the economy must be filed under 'Total Bullshit'.

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I genuinely don’t think there is any party politics here, as all would have done broadly the same.

But in May 2010, we borrowed £13.6bn, so not a huge difference, certainly not 10 fold. From 2008 to 2010 there was a big increase in borrowing, which slowly and successfully (finance wise) was reduced until Covid hit

But yeah, whatever financial benefits were gained from the years of austerity have certainly be lost due to Covid. As a Quiet Monkfish says, thankfully interest rates are very low.

I just find the figures extraordinary really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

That's over 10 times what we were borrowing at the time of the 2010 general election, when a Conservative party in opposition said we were borrowing too much and went on an austerity drive.

So, for all the jobs that were lost due to austerity, the services we lost due to austerity, the pay freezes that affected many people due to austerity, and we're borrowing 10 times fecking more? Even with the cost of Covid, any claims that the Tories are the only party who know how to run the economy must be filed under 'Total Bullshit'.

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It is bullshit, as is the perpetual claim that the NHS is 'safer' under Labour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I genuinely don’t think there is any party politics here, as all would have done broadly the same.

But in May 2010, we borrowed £13.6bn, so not a huge difference, certainly not 10 fold. From 2008 to 2010 there was a big increase in borrowing, which slowly and successfully (finance wise) was reduced until Covid hit

But yeah, whatever financial benefits were gained from the years of austerity have certainly be lost due to Covid. As a Quiet Monkfish says, thankfully interest rates are very low.

I just find the figures extraordinary really.

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austerity was certainly de rigeur at the time, not only in this country, but many nations adopted some level of it.
lots of the same economists who were pushing for it now think in many cases it significantly delayed the recovery.

these days it isn't nearly as much in favour as an approach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's what the UK borrowed in just thirty days of November 2021.

Seventeen thousand million pounds.

That's £579,000,000 a day. £24,000,000 an hour. £402,000 a minute. £7,000 a second.

Merry Christmas one and all!

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...t-budget-value

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Isn't that 17 billion?

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Isn't that 17 billion?

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yes, weird way of writing it

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Isn't that 17 billion?

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Yep, £17.4bn.

But I think it gets lost quite how much that is.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Yep, £17.4bn.

But I think it gets lost quite how much that is.

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it's about a thousand million I think

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Originally Posted by delmbox

it's about a thousand million I think

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Correct!

I always use thousand thousand instead of million, so people understand it properly.

But sometimes I wonder if we really appreciate what a thousand is. So I tend to say ten of ten tens and that helps a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I genuinely don’t think there is any party politics here, as all would have done broadly the same.

But in May 2010, we borrowed £13.6bn, so not a huge difference, certainly not 10 fold. From 2008 to 2010 there was a big increase in borrowing, which slowly and successfully (finance wise) was reduced until Covid hit

But yeah, whatever financial benefits were gained from the years of austerity have certainly be lost due to Covid. As a Quiet Monkfish says, thankfully interest rates are very low.

I just find the figures extraordinary really.

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I misread your figure with it being oddly done as tens of thousands of millions.

Between 2008-10 we had a massive global crash and all government spending back then was endorsed by the opposition. After he stepped down as Chancellor, George Osborne admitted if he'd been Chancellor in 2008 he'd have spent the same as the Labour government did.

Since then our national debt has almost doubled in monetary terms and rose from 65% of GDP in 2010 to 86% in 2017.

It is debatable whether there were any benefits to austerity. It put a squeeze on growth and helped delay any economic recovery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I genuinely don’t think there is any party politics here, as all would have done broadly the same.

But in May 2010, we borrowed £13.6bn, so not a huge difference, certainly not 10 fold. From 2008 to 2010 there was a big increase in borrowing, which slowly and successfully (finance wise) was reduced until Covid hit

But yeah, whatever financial benefits were gained from the years of austerity have certainly be lost due to Covid. As a Quiet Monkfish says, thankfully interest rates are very low.

I just find the figures extraordinary really.

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Oh come off it.

First, UK austerity is now widely acknowledged to have been a huge own goal and a bust (cf Joe Stiglitz).

This "amazement" at borrowing and debt levels is one of the standard rightwing tropes that emerges from time to time before they slam the poor with austerity claiming it's about controlling public finances. For context, the UK's current GDP is around 3T. In your language that's GBP 3,000,000M. Does 17,400M GBP now seem that big? I think not.

A few other things that seem missing in your picture. The UK economy is not (as Thathcer said) like a household. The National Debt never has to be repaid. That is a crass oft-peddled misunderstanding of the macroeconomy. Debt has to be serviced sustainably to maintain confidence in the currency but the debt can revolve forever. Effectively it means the UK has to cover its interest payments so the ROW is confident it will continue to do so and carry on buying its debt instruments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by az city

Oh come off it.

First, UK austerity is now widely acknowledged to have been a huge own goal and a bust (cf Joe Stiglitz).

This "amazement" at borrowing and debt levels is one of the standard rightwing tropes that emerges from time to time before they slam the poor with austerity claiming it's about controlling public finances. For context, the UK's current GDP is around 3T. In your language that's GBP 3,000,000M. Does 17,400M GBP now seem that big? I think not.

A few other things that seem missing in your picture. The UK economy is not (as Thathcer said) like a household. The National Debt never has to be repaid. That is a crass oft-peddled misunderstanding of the macroeconomy. Debt has to be serviced sustainably to maintain confidence in the currency but the debt can revolve forever. Effectively it means the UK has to cover its interest payments so the ROW is confident it will continue to do so and carry on buying its debt instruments.

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Thanks for that, informative and interesting, and i understood it :thumbup:

Wtf are you going on about 'right wing tropes'. I'm genuinely a bit sick of your in particular wading into stuff like this with abuse. There's no tropes or anything going on. It's a fairly sensible discussion using data about how much the country borrowed which is at very high levels. I advocate that! I don't object to furlough etc

You're a bit of a bully tbh and an intolerant one at that.

The figures being borrowed are unprecedented in decades and I'm not advocating any policies so take a step back before you post.

Quit the student politics language please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Wtf are you going on about 'right wing tropes'. I'm genuinely a bit sick of your in particular wading into stuff like this with abuse. There's no tropes or anything going on. It's a fairly sensible discussion using data about how much the country borrowed which is at very high levels. I advocate that! I don't object to furlough etc

You're a bit of a bully tbh and an intolerant one at that.

The figures being borrowed are unprecedented in decades and I'm not advocating any policies so take a step back before you post.

Quit the student politics language please.

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Merry Christmas.

Could I recommend you do some research on historical debt/GDP ratios?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Wtf are you going on about 'right wing tropes'. I'm genuinely a bit sick of your in particular wading into stuff like this with abuse. There's no tropes or anything going on. It's a fairly sensible discussion using data about how much the country borrowed which is at very high levels. I advocate that! I don't object to furlough etc

You're a bit of a bully tbh and an intolerant one at that.

The figures being borrowed are unprecedented in decades and I'm not advocating any policies so take a step back before you post.

Quit the student politics language please.

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There was absolutely no abuse whatsoever in what he wrote, don't be so sensitive

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Originally Posted by delmbox

There was absolutely no abuse whatsoever in what he wrote, don't be so sensitive

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He wade's in all the time making accusations that aren't there. There's no tropes whatsoever in what I wrote.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by az city

Merry Christmas.

Could I recommend you do some research on historical debt/GDP ratios?

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Thanks Prof.

It's at its highest since the 1970s at least. The UK hasn't had this level of borrowing for decades.

You can argue that matters or not, I wasn't making that point but thanks for wading in and making assumptions, as per.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gover...maast/june2021

Quote:

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Originally Posted by az city

Oh come off it.

First, UK austerity is now widely acknowledged to have been a huge own goal and a bust (cf Joe Stiglitz).

This "amazement" at borrowing and debt levels is one of the standard rightwing tropes that emerges from time to time before they slam the poor with austerity claiming it's about controlling public finances. For context, the UK's current GDP is around 3T. In your language that's GBP 3,000,000M. Does 17,400M GBP now seem that big? I think not.

A few other things that seem missing in your picture. The UK economy is not (as Thathcer said) like a household. The National Debt never has to be repaid. That is a crass oft-peddled misunderstanding of the macroeconomy. Debt has to be serviced sustainably to maintain confidence in the currency but the debt can revolve forever. Effectively it means the UK has to cover its interest payments so the ROW is confident it will continue to do so and carry on buying its debt instruments.

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Your'e right about the Nat. Debt never having to be repaid, but BC [before Covid], any Govt. would have made a fair effort at keeping a lid on it and also the balance of payments. I think the overall debt liability for the Govt. is closer to £6T when pensions etc are taken into consideration. The problem facing this or any other Govt. is falling tax revenues, exponential future increases in care, health etc., and the need to increase interest rates to curb inflation, but unable to do so. The 'West' has seen standard of living growth year each decade for 100's of years, excepting recession/war. I think that's as good as over.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

It is bullshit, as is the perpetual claim that the NHS is 'safer' under Labour.

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A brave political party statement would be to say the NHS Is no longer sustainable or fundable , but hey like Covid it's a great political tool.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

He wade's in all the time making accusations that aren't there. There's no tropes whatsoever in what I wrote.

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Fair enough, just seems a bit of an overreaction from someone who's joyfully accusing people of being "Angries" in another thread :sherlock:

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Fair enough, just seems a bit of an overreaction from someone who's joyfully accusing people of being "Angries" in another thread :sherlock:

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Maybe an overreaction, that does happen to us all.

What you mention is additionally in response to unwarranted abuse on other threads that tbh I think should be called out.

It doesn't have to be like this. Civil conversation and debate is possible.

take it from the MONEY tree that teresa may got the 43billion to give to the european crooks when she negotiated GB staying in the club

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Originally Posted by life on mars

A brave political party statement would be to say the NHS Is no longer sustainable or fundable , but hey like Covid it's a great political tool.

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complete bollocks as well

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Originally Posted by lennybluebird

take it from the MONEY tree that teresa may got the 43billion to give to the european crooks when she negotiated GB staying in the club

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Or the billions she gave to the DUP to stay in power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

He wade's in all the time making accusations that aren't there. There's no tropes whatsoever in what I wrote.

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There wasn't any abuse though. He just countered your point very reasonably.

About the same as Rambo’s salary if you listen to Juve fans

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Wtf are you going on about 'right wing tropes'. I'm genuinely a bit sick of your in particular wading into stuff like this with abuse. There's no tropes or anything going on. It's a fairly sensible discussion using data about how much the country borrowed which is at very high levels. I advocate that! I don't object to furlough etc

You're a bit of a bully tbh and an intolerant one at that.

The figures being borrowed are unprecedented in decades and I'm not advocating any policies so take a step back before you post.

Quit the student politics language please.

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Check out angrypants here, getting upset at being corrected by someone else on his phone screen. What a thing to be furious about.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Check out angrypants here, getting upset at being corrected by someone else on his phone screen. What a thing to be furious about.

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Snowflake generation.