Are we seeing the changing of the guard at Cardiff City?

Yes, we played a poor Preston side. However, from what I saw of the likes of Kieron Evans, Tom Sang, Ryan Wintle, Isaak Davies and Mark Harris was enough to make me thing they need regular involvement between now and the end of the season. We have Sam Bowen to come back as well. Bagan needs to work on his delivery but he got up and down well.

Is it time to ditch the likes of Pack and Vaulks and give these youngsters the opportunity? The more we give them experience, the more they'll learn about playing football at this level.

"You can't win anything with kids" - A. Hansen, 1995

Let's hope so

I was definitely impressed with Wintle, and Evans, Davies, Sang and Harris all had their moments.
Lovely through ball from Colwill for Davies' one on one too.
Swap Moore in for Collins and keep the younger ones.

I thought Bagan was fine. not the threat of Giles, but I'm not sure it was doing us any favours being so reliant on him anyway.
Giles' last game for us his crossing was really bad too, and Bagan hasn't played for months.

I thought Bagan got better as the game went on but his final ball is shocking.

I really think the quality of the game is effected by the lack of fans. It becomes a training game.

Colwill isn't as flashy as some of the others but when he's on it he's pure class, I can see him playing deeper as a midfielder. He doesn't have the raw pace to play wide and when he matures should have the physicality required to play in midfield

Bellamy mentioned him running games at youth level and there was a period toward the end of the first half when he was doing that today. Hopefully he can progress and we can move away from our dull midfield

I really do think it's time we ditch the back 5, we simply aren't suited to it. Even if we brought in better wing backs the present midfield options just aren't up to it

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Originally Posted by City123

Colwill isn't as flashy as some of the others but when he's on it he's pure class, I can see him playing deeper as a midfielder. He doesn't have the raw pace to play wide and when he matures should have the physicality required to play in midfield

Bellamy mentioned him running games at youth level and there was a period toward the end of the first half when he was doing that today. Hopefully he can progress and we can move away from our dull midfield

I really do think it's time we ditch the back 5, we simply aren't suited to it. Even if we brought in better wing backs the present midfield options just aren't up to it

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I like the back 3 (not back 5)
I don't think we would be playing any better In a back 4

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I like the back 3 (not back 5)
I don't think we would be playing any better In a back 4

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Tend to agree, I just can’t see a line up with a back 4 that works with what we have available.

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Originally Posted by B. Oddie

"You can't win anything with kids" - A. Hansen, 1995

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Little known fact - the team he was talking about (Manchester United) actually went on to win both the Premier League and FA Cup that year

Yet to see what all the fuss is about with Colwill, maybe he will develop the more game time he gets but he wants too many touches on the ball and is weak. Gets dispossessed very easily.

Isaak Davies stand out for me so far and Sam Bowen was just growing into it with a very good display against Reading before he got injured.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Yet to see what all the fuss is about with Colwill, maybe he will develop the more game time he gets but he wants too many touches on the ball and is weak. Gets dispossessed very easily.

Isaak Davies stand out for me so far and Sam Bowen was just growing into it with a very good display against Reading before he got injured.

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Colwill is still our 2nd top scorer this season and has the best goals per game ratio of the entire squad.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Colwill is still our 2nd top scorer this season and has the best goals per game ratio of the entire squad.

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Im what has been a pathetic season. I am yet to see what the fuss is about that elevated him above the others.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Im what has been a pathetic season. I am yet to see what the fuss is about that elevated him above the others.

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I don't disagree with you, he does seem to be the golden boy for little reason. He's still had a more than decent start as a Championship player in terms of what he's produced. That has to be something on which to build.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I don't disagree with you, he does seem to be the golden boy for little reason. He's still had a more than decent start as a Championship player in terms of what he's produced. That has to be something on which to build.

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Yes hopefully he can build on it but I do think he was initially picked out by Mick because of his size and not cos he was necessarily the best of the group.

People talk about him like we’ve got another Aaron Ramsey style wonderkid but he hasn’t stood out for me. You look at some of the young English players who’ve broken through in last few years - Mount, Foden, Connor Gallagher, Smith- Rowe,etc immediately you can see their quality. Cole Palmer the other night. Immediately you are “Wow this kid is a special talent”. I’ve never got that with Colwill tbh.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I like the back 3 (not back 5)
I don't think we would be playing any better In a back 4

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What’s so good about the 5 at the back (and it is a 5 at the back) that’s worked well in the last 9 or so months?

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

What’s so good about the 5 at the back (and it is a 5 at the back) that’s worked well in the last 9 or so months?

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The back 5 is shite. NG is garbage as a wing back.

Morison looked so much more comfortable when we went into a back 4 this afternoon

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

The back 5 is shite. NG is garbage as a wing back.

Morison looked so much more comfortable when we went into a back 4 this afternoon

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It doesn't suit any of the centre halves or full backs we have. It doesn't suit our centre mids, as none of them want to join the attack, so it means our striker is always isolated, which wouldn't be the case in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. Apparently they feel there's not enough pace in the centre halves to play 4 at the back (so says Wales Online) which I find absolutely crazy. Flint and Morrison are slower than they were, granted but they were hardly quick. Plus Nelson and McGuinness aren't slow. Morrison's performance was a major positive today though.

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

It doesn't suit any of the centre halves or full backs we have. It doesn't suit our centre mids, as none of them want to join the attack, so it means our striker is always isolated, which wouldn't be the case in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. Apparently they feel there's not enough pace in the centre halves to play 4 at the back (so says Wales Online) which I find absolutely crazy. Flint and Morrison are slower than they were, granted but they were hardly quick. Plus Nelson and McGuinness aren't slow. Morrison's performance was a major positive today though.

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each to their own, I like it and I hope we continue going in this direction. yes we have some positions that could be more optimal for it but at least it is a step in the right direction IMO

I think our central midfield does suit this formation. if we are playing with a double pivot you aren't relying on the CMs to get forward to support the attack, as the wingbacks (basically wide midfielders) are doing that job.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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Go to bed you grumpy old sod.

Isaak Davies has pace to burn. Doesn’t have genuine pace indeed.

Never mind the two defenders he completely skinned for his goal, it went through the keepers legs instead of the top corner. 🙄

Mark Harris come on as a sub in the 75th minute and scored the winner in extra time. But didn’t effect the game? 🤦🏻*♂️

As for the cross for the winner how can you criticise it? It was put in channel between keeper and defenders and not one but two players could have finished it. If Collins control was better it was a tap
In. Fell nicely for Harris and he buried it with aplomb.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

each to their own, I like it and I hope we continue going in this direction. yes we have some positions that could be more optimal for it but at least it is a step in the right direction IMO

I think our central midfield does suit this formation. if we are playing with a double pivot you aren't relying on the CMs to get forward to support the attack, as the wingbacks (basically wide midfielders) are doing that job.

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None of our central defenders can bring the ball out and one of our wing backs offers nothing going forward. Much rather see Sang at RWB than Ng who is a League one player at best.

Then in midfield we need players who can pass to the wingbacks or between the lines to then forward
Players and we have Will Vaulks in there who’s passing ability is shocking.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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:hehe:

Pretty brutal but I'd say your synopsis of the game is not a million miles away, if a little harsh in a couple of areas and I daresay had the game gone to pelanties and us losing (a probability IMHO), this thread would be a lot different.

We had a good first twenty to thirty minutes I'd say and although they weren't that creative, I thought Preston were slightly better than us for much of the game.
A scroll through the thread up until our goal should tell the story of the game pretty well.

We might not be the class of '92 but it was refreshing to see our kids showing plenty of balls and conviction in their play.

Now let's see them let loose at Anfield.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I like the back 3 (not back 5)
I don't think we would be playing any better In a back 4

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Our central defenders are more suited to a back 4. None have ever looked truly at home in a back 3. At present our wing backs are definitely better as full backs. The senior midfielders lack the dynamism, athleticism and drive to function effectively as a 2 in this system. They also have neither the creativity nor positional awareness to make up for that, Pack and Vaulks might as well have been holding hands at times today whilst at others there were huge gaps. There is also a (understandable) hesitancy on their behalf to get forward as they'll leave their partner completely exposed. Consequently we have too few numbers in attack, leaving the front 3 plus Giles (when he was here) on their own to muster something, usually from a cross. The front 3 is also a mess. The two players playing alongside the main striker never look comfortable nor seem to know where to be, they often look lost. There's very little interplay as a result.

The system really doesn't work, nothing I've seen this season suggests it will work either. Maybe it will next season with a different squad but I see little point persevering with a system so ill-suited to our current squad, especially considering most won't be here next season so it's not like we can develop an understanding as a team

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

It doesn't suit any of the centre halves or full backs we have. It doesn't suit our centre mids, as none of them want to join the attack, so it means our striker is always isolated, which wouldn't be the case in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. Apparently they feel there's not enough pace in the centre halves to play 4 at the back (so says Wales Online) which I find absolutely crazy. Flint and Morrison are slower than they were, granted but they were hardly quick. Plus Nelson and McGuinness aren't slow. Morrison's performance was a major positive today though.

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I completely agree

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Originally Posted by MacAdder

:hehe:

Pretty brutal but I'd say your synopsis of the game is not a million miles away, if a little harsh in a couple of areas and I daresay had the game gone to pelanties and us losing (a probability IMHO), this thread would be a lot different.

We had a good first twenty to thirty minutes I'd say and although they weren't that creative, I thought Preston were slightly better than us for much of the game.
A scroll through the thread up until our goal should tell the story of the game pretty well.

We might not be the class of '92 but it was refreshing to see our kids showing plenty of balls and conviction in their play.

Now let's see them let loose at Anfield.

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I thought the first 20-25 minutes we weren't in the game. Preston controlled us completely and if they were a better side they would have finished us off in the first half.

I don't think we ever improved significantly as a team but whatever improvement which did appear came solely from the younger players and of course Davies finished off with a goal.

Our midfield was abysmal and imo Morison must start the process of easing Pack and Vaulks out to give us any chance of staying up. Things did start to improve when Wintle and Sang came on

The harsh truth is that as raw as they are it's only the youngsters together with Ralls, Moore and whichever of our two goalkeepers who will help us avoid relegation.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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Crikey.

These are still kids, they haven't finished their physical or footballing development. I'm not saying they're the finished article but they've already shown enough for me to keep trying them. Some of them might not make the grade, that's likely, but the more chances they get now, hopefully the more chances they have of developing into Championship players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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Think you’re being a tad critical of a side that was full of inexperienced youngsters, Morison maybe should have started one or two of the senior players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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Be interested to hear your opinion on how Nelson, Morrison, Pack, Vaulks and Collins played and how they and others such as Flint, Bacuna, Ralls and Moore have played all season. Not all of those have been poor in my opinion, but I think it will be the youngsters who we'll need to rely on more if we're to stay up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.

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I don't really disagree, I think it has been hard to really see the best of them as they are being relied on to create and score in a struggling team when for me they aren't really ready.

Colwill has some technique but seems too slow in thought and movement, he often gets the ball taken from him as if he is expecting far more space than is given. He has Whitts pace, not a deal breaker but his best position needs some thought.

Had he recently had a growth spurt? Still looks like he isn't fully comfortable with his height. With the technique he has it could be a great asset for him.

Davies has something, he can dribble well and actually has pace, although whether he is quick or just isn't going in reverse like the rest of the squad I can't work out.

He needs a season in the men's game to bulk up.

Ideally both would have been given some minutes sparingly and had a decent loan. I'm not sure either are ready for this level week in week out but by next season they should be more able to show what they have.

Harris I think is doing alright for us, does things that Moore and Collins won't, will be competing with Watters. Will get more minutes when Moore is sold.

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Originally Posted by Cleve van Leef

Think you’re being a tad critical of a side that was full of inexperienced youngsters, Morison maybe should have started one or two of the senior players.

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You mean players like Phillips, Ng, Nelson, Morrison, Pack, Vaulks and Collins?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Be interested to hear your opinion on how Nelson, Morrison, Pack, Vaulks and Collins played and how they and others such as Flint, Bacuna, Ralls and Moore have played all season. Not all of those have been poor in my opinion, but I think it will be the youngsters who we'll need to rely on more if we're to stay up.

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I really don't understand why some are determined to give the youngsters stick when our most of our senior players have been utter crap this season, many often much worse than the youngsters

Colwill probably has been overhyped as he needs to learn a lot but that’s not his fault. It comes from the desperation to find a silver lining in a pretty dire season.

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Originally Posted by Dave Blue

Colwill probably has been overhyped as he needs to learn a lot but that’s not his fault. It comes from the desperation to find a silver lining in a pretty dire season.

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he's still a teenager, and has a teenagers build. he's ahead of schedule as far as I'm concerned

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Originally Posted by Dave Blue

Colwill probably has been overhyped as he needs to learn a lot but that’s not his fault. It comes from the desperation to find a silver lining in a pretty dire season.

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It's not just us though, Page clearly sees something in him being that he took him to the Euro's. He's not going to be a Ramsey but he should have a decent career

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Be interested to hear your opinion on how Nelson, Morrison, Pack, Vaulks and Collins played and how they and others such as Flint, Bacuna, Ralls and Moore have played all season. Not all of those have been poor in my opinion, but I think it will be the youngsters who we'll need to rely on more if we're to stay up.

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On Sunday, with a team of experienced players and youngsters, against a poor Preston team, we managed four shots on target in two hours play.
The league table doesn't lie. We have the third worse goal difference in the division. If Reading even draw their match in hand and if you factor in Derby's 'true' league position, we would be in the relegation places. Sad to say, we are in a relegation dog fight - and I'm not optimistic that the club will bring in needed better players in January.
Re: those nine players you list, since they have played for much of the season, with the exception of Flint and Ralls imo, they are responsible for our league position. Moore has been an enigma for me - how fit has he been? how much has he been affected by the summer transfer saga? has he fallen out with manager(s)? His body language and performances suggest there is a problem. As for Morrison, I have always regarded him as one of our dependable players - but he was terrible yesterday. Ponderous, dragged out of position and when he pushed the Preston player over in the penalty area yesterday, I thought a penalty might be awarded. Collins and Vaulks have been very average.
If anyone thinks that inexperienced players can be brought in to reverse our slide, they might think again.
As it stands, I have doubts about the qualities of the manager and even wonder if the style of play attempted is beyond the capabilities of the players. The other thing I noticed yesterday was that despite the 27 fouls committed by City, Preston looked to be the stronger team - particularly their defence.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

It's not just us though, Page clearly sees something in him being that he took him to the Euro's. He's not going to be a Ramsey but he should have a decent career

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yeah it's important to remember we may never get another prospect like Ramsey.
he's played more than 50 champions League matches and is one of the highest paid footballers in UK history.
we are trying to produce players who can be a good squad player for the championship as a minimum, and any better than that then great.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

After watching todays game, I'm amazed that fans think this group of youngsters is a cause for optimism.
Preston were a poor side, yet we managed only four shots on target in two hours play.
This tells me there was little penetration in our play and/or poor quality finishing. This with Colwill, Davies and Harris being on the pitch for a sizeable length of time.
A further point is that none of these has genuine pace and all three are lightweights. I also have this nagging thought that Colwill may flatter to deceive.
I know the rest of the team were poor, but these three were in positions where they could and should influence attacking play, but there was little evidence that they were effective at that.
Davies scored a goal - which the goalie should have dealt with his foot. Harris' goal was the highlight of the game. As soon as their defender messed up, it was four on two and we should have scored - yet the cross wasn't brilliant and Collins made a pigs ear of controlling the ball before it ran, more by luck than judgement to Harris - though to be fair his shot was decisive.
Even with the players to come in, I think the rest of the season is going to be a struggle with or without the youngsters but of more concern is the quality of the football - which was slow, predictable and abysmal for much of the time (even with those three playing). Several times I thought 'Thank goodness I'm not there freezing and watching this.' At least I could fall asleep in front of the fire during the game - which I did.

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Only at Cardiff City. FFS.

Preston had won their last 2 games and 3 out if their last 5, and look pretty safe from relegation this season. they have a decent defence and their games tend to be tight with few chances at either end.
they aren't a terrible side, there is no shame at all in beating them In extra time.
we made the better chances and won.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

yeah it's important to remember we may never get another prospect like Ramsey.
he's played more than 50 champions League matches and is one of the highest paid footballers in UK history.
we are trying to produce players who can be a good squad player for the championship as a minimum, and any better than that then great.

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....on a shoestring budget

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

yeah it's important to remember we may never get another prospect like Ramsey.
he's played more than 50 champions League matches and is one of the highest paid footballers in UK history.
we are trying to produce players who can be a good squad player for the championship as a minimum, and any better than that then great.

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Exactly, Ramsey isn't the player we should be comparing people to but more like the likes of Ledley and Gunter. I've seen posters comparing our youngsters to the likes of Gallagher, Mount etc and complaining they're not at that level, that's ridiculous. We're a Championship club with a category 2 academy, we should compare ourselves with other clubs at that level