Here we go again..
Thoughts? Pro's? Con's?
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Here we go again..
Thoughts? Pro's? Con's?
One of the key reasons Scotland voted to remain in the UK was so there wasn't a risk of them leaving the EU. They've been dragged out against their will so can't blame them for wanting another vote.
Ideal timing for the SNP. Never in recent decades has there been so much dissatisfaction with Westminster and it should be all to their advantage.
I have family in Scotland. Some pro indy, some not.
It strikes me as very similar to brexit, very little strength to the economic case, mostly ideologically driven and flag waving. The argument for freedom/self-governance is probably stronger than brexit however given the greater control Westminster has over Scotland.
This is probably their window though. They would have absolutely no chance of winning a vote under a non-tory UK government.
Considering that the Conservatives secured more seats than the Labour party in the 2021 Scottish election, I'm not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
It doesn't indicate any great enthusiasm for the Labour party.
I think it's marvelous. Brexit has been predicted to be the catalyst for the break up of the UK. Why on Earth didn't Wales follow our Celtic cousins in voting against it instead of supporting the little Englander mentality?
Good luck to them if they leave. Thou I reckon reunification in Ireland will come first. Bunglecnuts latest ruse to trash the protocol goes against the wishes of the majority and panders to an ever declining troop of crackpot dup/tuv bigots. He's even managed to pee off the moderate alliance vote. Which could be a disaster for the union, if they and their base embrace unity then it's game over.
Good post, spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilkers
I've got to the point where I think we should just let them get on with it but leaving the union must mean exactly that, with all the ramifications that that will entail.
Yeah but if we were talking second preference by SNP voters then labour destroys the Tories. There is a clear majority for a centre left government in Scotland and if they get that in Westminster then the floaters in any independence vote wouldn't need risk voting yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Funnily enough, probably the best way to win back seats in Scotland from the SNP is a LAB/SNP coalition where the SNP bargain for a vote and independence loses. That would end the argument for a good while but would be a massive risk for Labour.
The question of independence will be decided on by a referendum rather than by the number of seats secured in the Scottish parliament though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Because that's not what Brexit was ever about, which you should know by now given it's been 6 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
I won't point out the irony of you supporting someone leaving a union whilst also bemoaning others for wanting to leave a union..
That's not irony - are you sure you know what it means?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
There is no contradiction here either, it is perfectly reasonable to think that one union is beneficial to you and another not or no longer is.
Nobody is saying that there is "irony" in Ukraine wanting to leave the USSR and later wanting to join the EU?
Another of your absurd comparisons. Which one is the UK in this? The USSR? It's true of course, unions differ, but it doesn't make the situation without irony as nearly every argument that Scotland will use to leave the UK will be a reversal of those used to remain in the EU. Sturgeons words will be used against her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
If you can't see any irony here, thats up to you I guess. (The irony goes both ways btw, including for those arguing we are stronger together as the UK, but advocating more political freedom by leaving the EU)
I'm not comparing anyone to the USSR, I'm merely pointing out it is perfectly possible to want to be in one union and not in another, there doesn't have to be any contradiction, if you feel one is beneficial to you and one is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Yes, I understand that well. But there is also an irony on both sides, as many, if not all, of the arguments being made will be reversed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Thanks captain obvious. The 'we don't want to be ruled by Westminster' sentiment, that some people who might vote for independence have, changes based on how well Westminster aligns with their political views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Obviously as I said above, the core vote for independence is ideological, but this core vote isn't large enough to win on its own.
Thanks for the epithet. A tad unnecessary perhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Unnecessary like telling me that a referendum will decide whether they go independent or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
She has not other policy and its masks there appalling drugs , education and health problems , read up on the Scottish ferry issue, the only thing keeping her in power the hatred of the English .Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Let them go and deal with their budget deficits ,last year was 36.3 billion British pounds, that was with 12 billion extra for Covid , there was a 15.8 billion pounds the previous year,
Gosh nationalism ??
How did Labour let this happen ( Blair devolution perhaps ) the party was born there and ruled it ,not liked now though why ??
Well that is what the thread is all about and I didn't make a personal remark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Does it really bother you that much if someone calls you a pretty non offensive name?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
It doesn't upset me unduly. I just like to keep exchanges civil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
I don't know how much time you spend in Scotland but from my experience having spent about 150 days there in the last 10 years, I have never seen any hatred directed towards English people (and from my accent I would be assumed to be entirely English stock).Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
My sister has lived there for 17 years and has had the odd sour experience but nothing major. My parents moved up recently and have seen/felt nothing at all.
You are the first to jump in when someone says brexit was caused by a 'hatred of foreigners' so it seems a bit hypocritical to peddle this.
Have you not seen the British deficit/debt?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Oh well I don't, there is the problem then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Fair dinkum, old fruit. We can agree to disagree :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
I’m open minded on it all.
In practice, I think not one of Scotlands problems is caused by Westminster and Scotland has a huge range of powers as it is. They also have considerable tax raising powers, so whilst they don’t control the benefits system, she could raise income tax and halve council tax, or give a payout to all lower income households etc. The SNP know this, but they choose to blame Westminster for nearly everything anyway, rarely with much basis in the truth.
Their record, as I understand it, is mixed, which is fair enough. I am never one to think the Tories, Labour or SNP or anyone else are all bad or all good and there are many competent SNP politicians and councils.
I dislike nationalism on principle, but I think it’s fair enough that if someone feels Scottish only, they may want independence. But equally, many feel Scottish and British and that creates an identity angle to it all that can’t be wished away. That’s the ‘heart’ side of the argument.
I would vote to stay in the UK, mainly because I think Scotland has a good deal. It pays in less than it receives and would have to grapple with a huge budget deficit and lenders would be less inclined to plug that gap than they would with the UK. I think they would enter a period of significant austerity.
That said, it would open opportunities to out compete the UK and Scotland is a significant financial centre in it’s own right. Also, on things like energy it would be a very considerable mass exporter, albeit having had to compensate the UK for their infrastructure first.
On balance I’m pro devotion, but opposed to independence so I hope they vote No.
Pro devotion to the Tories and UKIP?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
And the UK probably has the better chance of pulling that back , I very much doubt Scotland could on their own .Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
Using Ukraine is a classic example of a strawman. You're comparing a dictatorship with a democratic institution. You cannot directly relate leaving the UK/joining the EU to what you have proposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
As for Wales, we currently have more representation in the UK Parliament than we would in the EU Parliament, so I'm not really sure we'd be better off or have as much of a voice as we have now. We've also seen the cluster**** that's the Northern Ireland protocol...imagine what would happen if the rump UK didn't have to cater for both sides (which is the case for Wales as we don't have 17th century sectarian lines throughout our society)
I wasn't convinced leaving the EU was sensible and I'm not convinced leaving the UK would be either.
Yes. What is your point? In the past 20 years we've had the financial crash and Covid. Is there any wonder the debt has risen. The deficit is now starting to come down so in real terms the debt will fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doucas
I always thought the left were happy for government borrowing if it meant better benefits and services. during Covid this current Tory government actually went centre left on us with the free money they were giving away.
Your comments go to show its not about borrowing etc, its about being against the politics of your adversary.