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I think people who read the mail and express need to be shotQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
if that poll was replicated at a general election it would likely lead to a labour majority of around 180Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
For the last 10 years or so the Express has been the one national paper that always - always - gives the Tories and their leader of the time 100% uncritical, fawning support. It is their role. Before that they used to major on 'Princess Di' and the weather. Now it is chief cheerleader and apologist for the Tories.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
The Mail, the Telegraph, the Times and the rest of the right wing print media sometimes break ranks and stick the knife into the Tories. It never lasts for long, but they do it. I despise the Mail - but they do sometimes do the unexpected and break ranks (and they did play a major role in the Justice for Stephen Lawrence campaign long ago).
But never the Express - which must also be the dullest, most pointless paper out there.
The Tories are supposed to be the greatest election winning political machine in history - but they seem to have completely lost the plot at the moment. It is hard to see them escape this political and economic meltdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
If Labour win the next election (maybe now more probable than possible?) it will be because the Tories handed it to them.
The Mail’s fallen into line more now that Dacre’s back mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
they have totally ****ed it. that poll while only an isolated one would equate to only 142 Tory MPsQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
If Labour were to win in two years time (I can’t see even this lot being daft enough to go to the country before that), it would be the first time Rupert Murdoch papers would have backed the losing side in an election since, I’m guessing, the two Labour wins in 1974. If it reaches the stage where the Sun and the Times switch to Labour, then you know the Tories are in trouble.
I think if labour had a strong leader with a bit of steel , like Lisa nandy , they would be in a far stronger position .
Starmer just isn't a leader in my view , I cringe every time he speaks , considering his career as a top lawyer he just seems lightweight like milliband was
That being said labour seem to be on the rise which is great to see after Boris doing whatever he wants and the Tories remaining high in the polls 🙄
I like Lynch but I hope the left wing of the party keep schtum until labour hopefully get a working majority at the next election and everyone can pull together to keep the Tories out .
Starmer needs to take on the torch of proportional representation and the liberals need to get sharp because if they do the third party can side with labour to keep the blue bastards out of the picture .
I am not really pro labour anymore , I am anti tory and would vote liberal if it kept them out . I remember at the last election having a chat with a local shopkeeper who was standing for the liberals . We had a good talk and I would have voted for her if I had needed to in order to fight the Tories.
I could never gossip away with a tory I am afraid , they are different people .
I think this sway to labour is down to the Tories being so poor rather than labour and starmer winning people over . But it is what it is , hopefully labour can use this period to get a foot through the door 🚪
There's no one more to the left than I am and even though I loved Jeremy he could be a tad too right wing for me at times lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
However, I agree with you here Sludge. This incarnation of the Tory party has become so nakedly immoral and incompetent that the only priority is to remove it summarily. Therefore us lefties should, in my opinion, bite our tongues and not rock the boat at this stage. The danger of letting these irresponsible ghouls grab power yet again is glaringly obvious.
Starmer might not be my first choice as leader but in the present circumstances so long as there's clear water between Labour and the Tories I think the whole party should get behind him.
If PR eventually gets Starmer's backing and eventually gets implemented I expect huge changes within the Tory party. Much of the One Nation group of Tories may well join parties further to the left and the core Tory party might remain merely as a far right rump. If this happens the country will save itself from suffering the right wing nightmare we are facing now.
Short answer for me is that it's confirmation bias. We all do it. It's the reason more left-wing people read the guardian or Mirror. We usually want to read things that affirm our opinions more than challenge them.
As Jon says, the Express is also pretty much the most ridiculous mainstream paper in the UK. It really doesn't have the investigative journalism or spectrum of opinion that the Mail does, let alone anything else.
That said, people haven't necessarily been 'taken in'.
On paper 1, assume thats from around 2010? - I think many would have agreed that it was time for something different.
Paper 2, assume thats from 2017? - We don't know what Corbyn would have done, but given we are talking about market disruption today, I think it's fair to say it would have reacted worse to Corbyn than May
On paper 3 - About keeping Boris in the job? Well, you are all now criticising the tax cuts and market reaction now he's gone..maybe they were right!?
On paper 4 - Maybe they are right. It's too soon to tell.
Murdoch (if hes still around) will never back the losing horse. Very significant to see how the Sun etc reports on things. They will be coming round to Labour and Labour know how important that is.
I dont mind Starmer at all. I agree he's a bit dull, a bit technocratic. Of recent PMs he reminds me most of Blair or Cameron. He does increasingly look a safe pair of hands though.
My more general point is that every party in power of left or right has been criticised, voted out, hated, admired, slated, adored in the last 12 years..and the same will happen in the next 12. It matters a lot less than many of us think who is in power.
I think you have lost the plot sludge.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
The strategy under Starmer has been pretty simple:
Make the right noises
Commit to very little
Let the Tories dig their own grave
And it is working. Nandy would need to be perfect, if you are centre left and opinionated, you get hammered the moment you make any small error.
I don't think headlines like that are winning elections for anybody. The role the media has to play in politics is far more nuanced - what do they report, when do they report it and how do they choose to spin it is what will win/lose elections.
Being left wing in a predominantly right leaning country means you have to ditch some of your aims in order to get into powerQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
It's no good ranting and raving and cheering on the likes of corbyn as he is Canon fodder for the Tories
Him , Benn, skinner etc ruin any chance of left of centre government as they give the tories a target
My view is that if starmer is the best chance of a not fecking tory government then so be it but he's not very good in my opinion . The sway towards labour in the opinion polls is clearly a response to the idiots running the country .
I sincerely hope labour cling on enough to form the next government but labour has too many factions and is prone to shooting itself in the foot .
She would be a far more effective leader than starmer as would Rachel Reeves .Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Why continue with the same red/blue punch & judy politics when it's the globalists who are wrecking the world economy, and Starmer and Truss are both paid up members.
I know you don’t rate Starmer but you should listen to him more attentively. He’s certainly doing well as we speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Whatever the frustrations with him we have to back him to get rid of these bandits.
Surely the point with those headlines is what it says about the judgement of the those behind them and those who have voted Conservative for the past twelve years - how can you passionately believe in what Theresa May wanted if you passionately believe in what Boris Johnson stood for, how can you be a David Cameron devotee and a Liz Truss one as well? The policies pursued by those last two are polar opposites of each other. Cameron was PM only six years ago, it’s some journey to get from where the Tories were then to where they are now, to have truly supported and voted for them over that period, you have to be in the I’ll vote for anything wearing a blue rosette camp -
Not a great fan of his myself, but I think that was an impressive speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blue
So, replace the old bandits with the new bandits :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blue
Even if we assume that your take on things is right, there is definitely “clear blue water” between between Labour and Conservatives when it comes to domestic policy and, even if you’re not happy with that, it’s what the majority of voters in this country care about most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
You'd be better off bringing Corbyn out of retirement :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I thought Starmer gave a good speech. He isn't a natural orator (indeed, both major parties have their worst natural speakers for some time) but the content was good. Fair, moderate, no rowing back on Brexit, no deals with SNP, recognises things aren't easy, realistic, etc etc. Lots of questions remain, but it was a good speech and he comes across as a likeable person too.
I probably had about a 1% chance of voting for labour under Corbyn, but I would be much more likely to vote Labour under Starmer.
I'll say another thing too: I like how he doesn't f**k about on stuff like this. Rupa Huqs comments on Kwasi Kwarteng are genuinely the most racist I have heard a British MP say in many a year. Story exposed a few hours ago..whip removed now.
https://order-order.com/2022/09/27/b...ty-loses-whip/
https://www.trilateral.org/people/sir-keir-starmer/Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I caught some of Starmer's speech on the radio. Business, business, business, home ownership, fiscal prudence ... Based on that, he's more right wing than Boris Johnson. I'd vote for him [not that I've voted for 30 yrs] based on that !Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Based on what?Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
He's getting better at public speaking, his delivery was pretty good today and the room was well choreographed. I think there were crumbs for everybody in that speech which was by design.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I agree I just worry the far left will raise their heads and screw things up for him as I don't think , unlike Blair , that he has the ability to deal with them . For me he tries too hard and doesn't seem to be formidable in dealing with the Tories. Brown , Milliband, Corbyn and now Starmer ......4 lightweight leaders in a row now . And at this time we have brexit , the decline of the labour vote in Scotland and the poor showing of the liberals in marginal tory seats ......its a lot to overcomeQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blue
I personally think at best we will see a small majority labour government .
Hope they prove me wrong though .
He's not a natural speaker and regularly fails to deliver the punch .Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
I am amazed he rose to the top of the legal world , he's like an excited 6th form politics student .
He's the best we have which doesn't say a lot but there you go .
Pretty naive from her. I think the fairer point to make is that he has less in common/faces less common struggles with a poor black person than a poor white person does. That is precisely why you don't even need to mention colour, he's privileged, just like any other person who goes to Eton. In fairness to Kwasi I haven't heard him try to paint himself as anything other, might be wrong on that though.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
If Labour can suspend someone for obsessing over skin colour whilst playing identity politics, confirm no deals with the SNP and commit to Brexit in one afternoon then jesus, show me the membership form.:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
He's a rich kid who went to public school , Eton and hanged round with similar people ..hes a product of the system . He speaks like a posh git because that's exactly what he is . It's got nothing to do with his colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Sadly dull people like her will always put their foot in it , hopefully she is on the naughty step now 😉
Lisa Nandy :hehe: shes worse than TrussQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Naive ? Dull ? I'd say the comment was racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Agreed, apparently this Cabinet has a higher proportion of privately educated members than any other of recent times - attack them as being out of touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
What was the context of the comment? If she was responding to the Tories claiming to have the most diverse Cabinet in history based on gender and race (they have made that claim elsewhere and it has been widely echoed) then it is right to say that skin colour and type of genitals is way less significant than social and economic background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
It is a Cabinet of privilege and money. Some members may look like the most disadvantaged sections of UK society, but they share very little with the majority when it comes to experience or outlook.
But to use a version of the 'choc ice' slur is stupid and probably racist - common street language 30-40 years ago but rightly not any more.
For James, of course, it is the most racist comment he has heard from a British MP in many a year. Really? I am not surprised by that but I'll give you a starter for 1: Boris Johnson (any one of this Greatest Racist Hits).
Well phone the police thenQuote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
Norman TebbitQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959