Richard Osman comment about the far right

He made an interesting point on a panel show recently where he said that the Institute of Economic Affairs (a right wing, libertarian, free market think tank) have been chipping away at getting its people into positions of power. Suddenly they're all there - Truss, Kwarteng etc. It disintegrates within a month. It is the death of far right politics in the country from within a right wing party. Osman described it as the biggest political failure in the history of the UK.

He's right. The UK doesn't want a far right government. Tories are now trying desperately to put themselves back into the middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

He made an interesting point on a panel show recently where he said that the Institute of Economic Affairs (a right wing, libertarian, free market think tank) have been chipping away at getting its people into positions of power. Suddenly they're all there - Truss, Kwarteng etc. It disintegrates within a month. It is the death of far right politics in the country from within a right wing party. Osman described it as the biggest political failure in the history of the UK.

He's right. The UK doesn't want a far right government. Tories are now trying desperately to put themselves back into the middle ground.

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It wants a right of centre government though

This country is centre right leaning and always has been unfortunately

Maybe things will change at the next election but I wouldn't bet against this country electing a Conservative government again

The electorate are fecking thick as feck and have short memories

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It wants a right of centre government though

This country is centre right leaning and always has been unfortunately

Maybe things will change at the next election but I wouldn't bet against this country electing a Conservative government again

The electorate are fecking thick as feck and have short memories

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Get things correct.

England is centre right leaning and Wales has to put up with that.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

This country is centre right leaning and always has been unfortunately

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Not always centre right - 1945 was a rejection of the centre right, and 1997 was a massive win for a social democratic party that may have ditched Clause 4 but hadn't yet sold its soul and its principles to Murdoch and Bush.

Politics, social cohesion and identity are all more volatile now than at any other time I can remember - with large numbers of voters capable of switching quickly from right to left and from traditional to emerging parties or causes. A large part of the disillusioned and 'abandoned' vote that went to UKIP, the Tories in 2019 and Brexit was also attracted to Corbyn's Labour in 2017, supports tax rises to fund the NHS and backs the Enough Is Enough trade union actions.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Not always centre right - 1945 was a rejection of the centre right, and 1997 was a massive win for a social democratic party that may have ditched Clause 4 but hadn't yet sold its soul and its principles to Murdoch and Bush.

Politics, social cohesion and identity are all more volatile now than at any other time I can remember - with large numbers of voters capable of switching quickly from right to left and from traditional to emerging parties or causes. A large part of the disillusioned and 'abandoned' vote that went to UKIP, the Tories in 2019 and Brexit was also attracted to Corbyn's Labour in 2017, supports tax rises to fund the NHS and backs the Enough Is Enough trade union actions.

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Exactly, while I’d agree that the UK (England especially) is a conservative (small c) nation at heart, there are “moments” when the nation’s instinct is to move away from that. For example, the country had had enough of too much union power in the late seventies and went further right than small c conservatism.As you say, 1945 was the opposite, and, for me, the country has been going further right under particularly inept Governments over the last dozen years - the time seems right for a recalibration, it feels right for one of those moments.

Britain wants a government that is balanced and works. Same as every other country. In most cases that means a centre-left or centre-right government. Most people don't care for the ideology because ideologies don't solve problems. Most governments will actually react in the same way to most problems.

It is preposterous to label the IEA as far-right or Kwarteng or Truss as such. Their budget was ultra-liberal if anything.

I don't know what a 'far right' fiscal policy would be, because the term normally applies to social policies not fiscal ones. Their budget was a mistake but it wasn't a 'far right' one.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Britain wants a government that is balanced and works. Same as every other country. In most cases that means a centre-left or centre-right government. Most people don't care for the ideology because ideologies don't solve problems. Most governments will actually react in the same way to most problems.

It is preposterous to label the IEA as far-right or Kwarteng or Truss as such. Their budget was ultra-liberal if anything.

I don't know what a 'far right' fiscal policy would be, because the term normally applies to social policies not fiscal ones. Their budget was a mistake but it wasn't a 'far right' one.

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Far right fiscal policy deploys tax and spending to increase inequality in an attempt to encourage the wealthy to use their money to stimulate growth.

Far left fiscal policy deploys tax and spending to decrease inequality and redistribute wealth in an attempt to improve infrastructure and social conditions so as to stimulate growth.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Far right fiscal policy deploys tax and spending to increase inequality in an attempt to encourage the wealthy to use their money to stimulate growth.

Far left fiscal policy deploys tax and spending to decrease inequality and redistribute wealth in an attempt to improve infrastructure and social conditions so as to stimulate growth.

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That isn't what far-right parties do though. Germany nazis, Italian fascists, Le Pen, whoever..they don't advocate free market economics.

Economic left-right scales don't operate on the same scale as social left-right scales. In that case, the EU as a totally liberal, deregulated free market across national borders would constitute the far-right, but that isn't accurate.

Aside from anything else, the loss of the 45% tax rate (which was their biggest error probably) would have returned the wealthiest rate of tax to Blairs time - Blair didn't employ far-right economic policies though.

Truss and Kwartang wanted a low tax, deregulated, small state - where individual choice (for those that can afford it) trumps collective provision. That is a right wing political/fiscal/social agenda combined. Whether it is 'far right' i don't know, or care.

And the EU is not a totally deregulated, liberal free market. That was a fair description of the EEC at the time of the Heath referendum, but it had evolved under pressure from trades unions and campaigners across Europe. The employment and environmental regulation in the EU was a reason that most members of the TUC and most of 'the left' (excluding the SWP and Dennis Skinner - who were still running the arguments of the 1970s) supported remain. It was also one of the main reasons the ERG wanted out.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Truss and Kwartang wanted a low tax, deregulated, small state - where individual choice (for those that can afford it) trumps collective provision. That is a right wing political/fiscal/social agenda combined. Whether it is 'far right' i don't know, or care.

And the EU is not a totally deregulated, liberal free market. That was a fair description of the EEC at the time of the Heath referendum, but it had evolved under pressure from trades unions and campaigners across Europe. The employment and environmental regulation in the EU was a reason that most members of the TUC and most of 'the left' (excluding the SWP and Dennis Skinner - who were still running the arguments of the 1970s) supported remain. It was also one of the main reasons the ERG wanted out.

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The employment and environmental laws aren't fiscal policy though. I agree, in terms of most social, environmental etc policies the EU isn't right-wing, although it has been centre-right led for some years now.

Fiscally though, it's like Thatcherisms wet dream. It is total deregulation across national markets. Individual governments ability to intervene is heavily diminished and competition and free market principles are built into it's DNA.

That doesn't mean it is far-right at all because as I say, such phrases don't really apply in economic terms, but it is certainly a very liberal interpretation of how markets should work.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Not always centre right - 1945 was a rejection of the centre right, and 1997 was a massive win for a social democratic party that may have ditched Clause 4 but hadn't yet sold its soul and its principles to Murdoch and Bush.

Politics, social cohesion and identity are all more volatile now than at any other time I can remember - with large numbers of voters capable of switching quickly from right to left and from traditional to emerging parties or causes. A large part of the disillusioned and 'abandoned' vote that went to UKIP, the Tories in 2019 and Brexit was also attracted to Corbyn's Labour in 2017, supports tax rises to fund the NHS and backs the Enough Is Enough trade union actions.

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2 occasions in god knows how long

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Exactly, while I’d agree that the UK (England especially) is a conservative (small c) nation at heart, there are “moments” when the nation’s instinct is to move away from that. For example, the country had had enough of too much union power in the late seventies and went further right than small c conservatism.As you say, 1945 was the opposite, and, for me, the country has been going further right under particularly inept Governments over the last dozen years - the time seems right for a recalibration, it feels right for one of those moments.

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Twice since the end of world war two

That really doesn't suggest to me that we are not a right of centre country

I wish we wernt believe me

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Twice since the end of world war two

That really doesn't suggest to me that we are not a right of centre country

I wish we wernt believe me

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I was just giving a couple of examples, I could have said Wilson’s first Government and 1997 with Blair.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Britain wants a government that is balanced and works. Same as every other country. In most cases that means a centre-left or centre-right government. Most people don't care for the ideology because ideologies don't solve problems. Most governments will actually react in the same way to most problems.

It is preposterous to label the IEA as far-right or Kwarteng or Truss as such. Their budget was ultra-liberal if anything.

I don't know what a 'far right' fiscal policy would be, because the term normally applies to social policies not fiscal ones. Their budget was a mistake but it wasn't a 'far right' one.

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There no such concept that represents 'what Britain wants'. Voters cast their votes individually, whether the recipient of their vote in recent years was Boris Johnson's conservative party, Nigel Frage's UKIP party or Jeremy Corbin's Labour Party.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

There no such concept that represents 'what Britain wants'. Voters cast their votes individually, whether the recipient of their vote in recent years was Boris Johnson's conservative party, Nigel Frage's UKIP party or Jeremy Corbin's Labour Party.

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Well, of course there is no clear, universal definition of what the country wants. But it would be reasonable to assume that general election results give us a fair indication, no?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well, of course there is no clear, universal definition of what the country wants. But it would be reasonable to assume that general election results give us a fair indication, no?

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If half population were to vote left wing and the other half were to vote right wing it doesn't mean that the electorate 'wants' a finely balanced centre government.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

If half population were to vote left wing and the other half were to vote right wing it doesn't mean that the electorate 'wants' a finely balanced centre government.

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Doesn't it? It probably means the median point of opinion is fairly centrist.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Doesn't it? It probably means the median point of opinion is fairly centrist.

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No it doesn't James. You're thinking like an accountant. It literally means the polar opposite (no pun intended).

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well, of course there is no clear, universal definition of what the country wants. But it would be reasonable to assume that general election results give us a fair indication, no?

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Has a party ever won with more than 50% of the electorate voting for it? I'd guess the answer is "no" so I'm going for UK elections as NOT being representative.

Tyranny of the largest minority etc...

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

If half population were to vote left wing and the other half were to vote right wing it doesn't mean that the electorate 'wants' a finely balanced centre government.

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A moot point, since governments answer to the global corporations.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don't know what a 'far right' fiscal policy would be, because the term normally applies to social policies not fiscal ones. Their budget was a mistake but it wasn't a 'far right' one.

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Do you see the obvious problem with this argument?

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

No it doesn't James. You're thinking like an accountant. It literally means the polar opposite (no pun intended).

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You tell me then - Insofar as the UK has any collective opinion, what is it?

I'd say it's reasonable to say that the UK typically elects centre-left or centre-right governments and the battle is won in the centre.

And that is what happens in most advanced western countries.

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Originally Posted by az city

Do you see the obvious problem with this argument?

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AZ you know very well that the term 'far-right' is not applied in general discussions on the economy or in fiscal terms. 'Far right' parties refers almost exclusively to their social policies. France's National Rally, Italy's Brothers of Italy or any other party labelled far-right will not be on the extreme liberal wing of economic theory - more likely the opposite.

If you looked at a party like the BNP, their economic policies are all about market intervention, giving workers stakes in the businesses, rhetoric against bankers etc. That stuff would typically be considered left-wing.

The left-right scale just doesn't really fit comfortably on the economic spectrum.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

You tell me then - Insofar as the UK has any collective opinion, what is it?

I'd say it's reasonable to say that the UK typically elects centre-left or centre-right governments and the battle is won in the centre.

And that is what happens in most advanced western countries.

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You do realise that by taking this position regarding centre ground that we should never have allowed Brexit. Half the population wanted to stay. Half wanted to leave. If half vote right and half vote left, you have political/ideological polarity i.e. there is no centrism. It simply doesn't exist in that form (in fact, it cannot). The state of having two opposite or contradictory tendencies, opinions, or aspects is the definition.

What you're alluding to and what we should be aiming for is consensus and respect of the two factions through mediation. Something our political systems and governments will not and never do and are not even set up to do. It requires great leadership and non-confrontational political debate. Ironically, something you advocate for on here.

Edit: that last part sounds like a dig, it isn't but we should all try and practice what we preach.

Edit, edit: in fact, it will be the ultimate downfall of humankind if we cannot grasp this and change our ways.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

You do realise that by taking this position regarding centre ground that we should never have allowed Brexit. Half the population wanted to stay. Half wanted to leave. If half vote right and half vote left, you have political/ideological polarity i.e. there is no centrism. It simply doesn't exist in that form (in fact, it cannot). The state of having two opposite or contradictory tendencies, opinions, or aspects is the definition.

What you're alluding to and what we should be aiming for is consensus and respect of the two factions through mediation. Something our political systems and governments will not and never do and are not even set up to do. It requires great leadership and non-confrontational political debate. Ironically, something you advocate for on here.

Edit: that last part sounds like a dig, it isn't but we should all try and practice what we preach.

Edit, edit: in fact, it will be the ultimate downfall of humankind if we cannot grasp this and change our ways.

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I think you are overthinking this.

I don't really have strong opinions on it - I just think that most elections are won by who occupies the centre ground because most advanced western countries are generally stable (ish!) and desire progress with stability - ie, some balance, ie, broadly centrist positions.

Referendums are, and should, be used sparingly, but thats not related to the general position of the British public I don't think.

I thought that was a fairly common opinion tbh!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think you are overthinking this.

I don't really have strong opinions on it - I just think that most elections are won by who occupies the centre ground because most advanced western countries are generally stable (ish!) and desire progress with stability - ie, some balance, ie, broadly centrist positions.

Referendums are, and should, be used sparingly, but thats not related to the general position of the British public I don't think.

I thought that was a fairly common opinion tbh!

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It used to be fairly common opinion that the earth was flat.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

It used to be fairly common opinion that the earth was flat.

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Nothing ever fits perfectly, but are British elections not usually won from the centre then?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Nothing ever fits perfectly, but are British elections not usually won from the centre then?

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The whole system is broken and a lie and has to re-booted. I’ve taken part in party politics and elections and was conditioned for decades. Not any more. We need the best people to run government, the country and support and protect its citizens.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

The whole system is broken and a lie and has to re-booted. I’ve taken part in party politics and elections and was conditioned for decades. Not any more. We need the best people to run government, the country and support and protect its citizens.

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Yeah I have some sympathy for that argument, but again, I'd say it's different to a general opinion that broadly speaking British (and most other) voters want something broadly centrist.

More specifically I'd say most want to flip between centre-left and centre-right govts every 10 years or so

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

AZ you know very well that the term 'far-right' is not applied in general discussions on the economy or in fiscal terms. 'Far right' parties refers almost exclusively to their social policies. France's National Rally, Italy's Brothers of Italy or any other party labelled far-right will not be on the extreme liberal wing of economic theory - more likely the opposite.

If you looked at a party like the BNP, their economic policies are all about market intervention, giving workers stakes in the businesses, rhetoric against bankers etc. That stuff would typically be considered left-wing.

The left-right scale just doesn't really fit comfortably on the economic spectrum.

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That’s the thing with far right rhetoric, they never gain power (until Truss in a coup) and mix their toxic messages with ‘lefty’ economic phrases that entice the working class into their web, just like Brexit.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Doesn't it? It probably means the median point of opinion is fairly centrist.

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Which is totally meaningless.

If we could change the voting system we could keep the right wing tory twats out for ever

OK so PR would lead to a few bnp type mps being elected but they could easily be put in a box

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Which is totally meaningless.

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I totally agree with you. I'd argue that the application of median measurement to voting on non single-issues is even worse as there are neither single +ves or -ve constants. Everything is variable.

Means and medians are really bad tools for making decisions about massive outliers in people's behaviours, thinking and emotions and politics.