Special health tax to help towards funding the NHS in Wales

I wonder if this would be a go-er? I would be happy to contribute as long as the tax revenue raised was strictly ring-fenced for NHS expenditure only.

According to official statistics there were 1.27 million basic rate and 0.1 million higher rate tax payers in Wales in 2020/2021. Total 1.28 million. Ref:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...te%20taxpayers

Total NHS spending in Wales = £9.6 billion. (https://www.audit.wales/infographics...arised-account). Let's say we went for a modest £1 billion (approx 10% of the £9.6 billion) raised by local taxation, this equates to approx £780 per tax payer per year or £65 per month. The extra £1 billion would surely ensure decent pay for nurses, paramedics and junior doctors and more besides.

I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but in the last few years the NHS (in England and thus increases come to Wales too) has seen large rises and yet improvements don't seem to happen.

Makes me think the issues are not directly money related and more connected to how the thing is managed. Thats the impression I get from speaking to friends in the NHS too.

Seems that both Labour and Conservatives are on board with reform of the NHS now too which says a lot given what a political football it is.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but in the last few years the NHS (in England and thus increases come to Wales too) has seen large rises and yet improvements don't seem to happen.

Makes me think the issues are not directly money related and more connected to how the thing is managed. Thats the impression I get from speaking to friends in the NHS too.

Seems that both Labour and Conservatives are on board with reform of the NHS now too which says a lot given what a political football it is.

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I agree that money alone is not the answer but in the short time we have to try to stop the exodus of nurses and other medical people from the NHS.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I wonder if this would be a go-er? I would be happy to contribute as long as the tax revenue raised was strictly ring-fenced for NHS expenditure only.

According to official statistics there were 1.27 million basic rate and 0.1 million higher rate tax payers in Wales in 2020/2021. Total 1.28 million. Ref:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...te%20taxpayers

Total NHS spending in Wales = £9.6 billion. (https://www.audit.wales/infographics...arised-account). Let's say we went for a modest £1 billion (approx 10% of the £9.6 billion) raised by local taxation, this equates to approx £780 per tax payer per year or £65 per month. The extra £1 billion would surely ensure decent pay for nurses, paramedics and junior doctors and more besides.

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It's not a tax, National insurance is the measure if they are going to increase money for the health service, it works out that more people pay a fairer proportion.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It's not a tax, National insurance is the measure if they are going to increase money for the health service, it works out that more people pay a fairer proportion.

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You don't pay NICs after 65. Sorry but I don't think working age people are going to put up with once again footing the bill for the healthcare of people who can afford to contribute more themselves

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I'm not saying it wouldn't help, but in the last few years the NHS (in England and thus increases come to Wales too) has seen large rises and yet improvements don't seem to happen.

Makes me think the issues are not directly money related and more connected to how the thing is managed. Thats the impression I get from speaking to friends in the NHS too.

Seems that both Labour and Conservatives are on board with reform of the NHS now too which says a lot given what a political football it is.

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Are these rises large IN REAL TERMS? How does UK healthcare spending compare with the EU?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I wonder if this would be a go-er? I would be happy to contribute as long as the tax revenue raised was strictly ring-fenced for NHS expenditure only.

According to official statistics there were 1.27 million basic rate and 0.1 million higher rate tax payers in Wales in 2020/2021. Total 1.28 million. Ref:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...te%20taxpayers

Total NHS spending in Wales = £9.6 billion. (https://www.audit.wales/infographics...arised-account). Let's say we went for a modest £1 billion (approx 10% of the £9.6 billion) raised by local taxation, this equates to approx £780 per tax payer per year or £65 per month. The extra £1 billion would surely ensure decent pay for nurses, paramedics and junior doctors and more besides.

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I find the information on the number of Welsh and UK higher rate taxpayers amazing, depressing and scary. I don't have time to trawl through the entire webpage you posted but am I correct in thinking that only 7.4% of Welsh taxpayers were paying at the higher rate?

Isn't the threshold for paying at the higher rate only approx. GBP 50K? Only 100K people pay higher rate taxes of a population of over 3M! That is utterly bonkers - the percentage is almost double for the UK. Wales is being screwed by Westminster. Time for independence within the EU.

(For reference, 29% of US taxpayers were in the tax bracket for more than $75K in income in the 2022 tax year.)

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I wonder if this would be a go-er? I would be happy to contribute as long as the tax revenue raised was strictly ring-fenced for NHS expenditure only.

According to official statistics there were 1.27 million basic rate and 0.1 million higher rate tax payers in Wales in 2020/2021. Total 1.28 million. Ref:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...te%20taxpayers

Total NHS spending in Wales = £9.6 billion. (https://www.audit.wales/infographics...arised-account). Let's say we went for a modest £1 billion (approx 10% of the £9.6 billion) raised by local taxation, this equates to approx £780 per tax payer per year or £65 per month. The extra £1 billion would surely ensure decent pay for nurses, paramedics and junior doctors and more besides.

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Ring-fencing is called hypothecation in the lingo. And it won't work unfortunately. All the Tories would do is reduce any funds currently earmarked for healthcare by the amount of the hypothecation. They're all weasels.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It's not a tax, National insurance is the measure if they are going to increase money for the health service, it works out that more people pay a fairer proportion.

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National Insurance is not a tax? Crikey. There's no special fund to service the health system, the dough comes from the same pot that pays for everything.

And while I'm at it, tax is a polite word for confiscate or steal. Furthermore, the state doesn't have to levy a penny from taxes as it can create as much dough as it wants from absolutely nothing (it's called QE).

Taxes exist as a means of control. If you believe you own your home then think again because the state does. You and I and millions of others rent it from the state via Council Tax... fail to cough for that and the state will make you understand reality.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I wonder if this would be a go-er? I would be happy to contribute as long as the tax revenue raised was strictly ring-fenced for NHS expenditure only.

According to official statistics there were 1.27 million basic rate and 0.1 million higher rate tax payers in Wales in 2020/2021. Total 1.28 million. Ref:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...te%20taxpayers

Total NHS spending in Wales = £9.6 billion. (https://www.audit.wales/infographics...arised-account). Let's say we went for a modest £1 billion (approx 10% of the £9.6 billion) raised by local taxation, this equates to approx £780 per tax payer per year or £65 per month. The extra £1 billion would surely ensure decent pay for nurses, paramedics and junior doctors and more besides.

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1.27 Million basic rate - only 0.1% higher rate, that can't be right? How many pay additional rate tax? - That's the problem with an extra welsh tax for some people it would be 40% or 45%? - It should be 20% for everyone.

Instead, start an additional welsh VAT of 1% or something?

Or stop free prescriptions, it's proven if something is free people will just have it and waste it because they can, some people get shit loads of free prescription gluten-free bread, crackers, and stuff how is that right, just eat something else, or buy it yourself?

The main problem is the NHS offers too many services, some will have to be reduced, and it is unsustainable.

Wales already gets more NHS cash per head than England, and they want us to pay extra? They can f*ck right off. They need to get a grip on the wastage, before they start asking us to pay more.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

1.27 Million basic rate - only 0.1% higher rate, that can't be right? How many pay additional rate tax? - That's the problem with an extra welsh tax for some people it would be 40% or 45%? - It should be 20% for everyone.

Instead, start an additional welsh VAT of 1% or something?

Or stop free prescriptions, it's proven if something is free people will just have it and waste it because they can, some people get shit loads of free prescription gluten-free bread, crackers, and stuff how is that right, just eat something else, or buy it yourself?

The main problem is the NHS offers too many services, some will have to be reduced, and it is unsustainable.

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I can't understand why 40-45% is too high for some people. I can understand why 20 is much too high for many. I'm perplexed with your thinking

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I can't understand why 40-45% is too high for some people. I can understand why 20 is much too high for many. I'm perplexed with your thinking

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I see your thinking, it's a big jump to double people's tax rate and start to strip child tax credits or whatever it is now.

A sliding scale from 5 to 55 would be fairer but too hard to collect.

I'm not sure that the Welsh Government tax raising powers extend to include National Insurance aswell? Im not sure the Welsh electorate would stomach z Wales only rise without quick results.
I think aswell its such a shame that the Westminster rise in NICs was scrapped as it would've helped for sure.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I can't understand why 40-45% is too high for some people. I can understand why 20 is much too high for many. I'm perplexed with your thinking

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Because everyone gets free health care, why ask higher-rate payers to pay an extra premium for the same health service, they already pay more in tax and national insurance.

Mr A earning £20K please pay an extra £40 a year to see your doctor or whatever
Mr B earning £100K a year you can pay £400 a year to see your doctor whatever, don't worry if you've got private health care and don't use it, just pay it for the others, in addition to the extra Nat ins and tax you pay, oh you have a big mortgage and may have less disposable income than Mr A, tough sh!t!

That's not my position, but it is for a lot of people.

Welsh Labour should manage the money better and not waste it on 20mph speed signs and all the rest of the stupid ideas.

I can't see any problem with it. Sounds like a solution to me

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Because everyone gets free health care, why ask higher-rate payers to pay an extra premium for the same health service, they already pay more in tax and national insurance.

Mr A earning £20K please pay an extra £40 a year to see your doctor or whatever
Mr B earning £100K a year you can pay £400 a year to see your doctor whatever, don't worry if you've got private health care and don't use it, just pay it for the others, in addition to the extra Nat ins and tax you pay, oh you have a big mortgage and may have less disposable income than Mr A, tough sh!t!

That's not my position, but it is for a lot of people.

Welsh Labour should manage the money better and not waste it on 20mph speed signs and all the rest of the stupid ideas.

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It's a pretty stupid position though because you can extrapolate it out of existence. I have no children yet I pay for schools, why? I haven't been to a doctor in years yet Doris next door needs regular treatment, she should pay, not me. Can I opt out of paying for my MPs wages?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

It's a pretty stupid position though because you can extrapolate it out of existence. I have no children yet I pay for schools, why? I haven't been to a doctor in years yet Doris next door needs regular treatment, she should pay, not me. Can I opt out of paying for my MPs wages?

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I agree with what your saying but that's standard tax situation, this is Wales has mismanaged the budgets and needs additional funding to England as they prioritise longer lockdowns, lower speeds, hindering the economy, free money for care home kids leaving care homes etc etc so £800 please, £40 for you, it's free for you, it's not on people would go mental.

Get the priorities right, lower speed trips to Qatar, free prescriptions are not priorities.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

It's a pretty stupid position though because you can extrapolate it out of existence. I have no children yet I pay for schools, why? I haven't been to a doctor in years yet Doris next door needs regular treatment, she should pay, not me. Can I opt out of paying for my MPs wages?

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I agree, this is how the system should work. Everyone pays in whether they expect to use the system or not. I am reasonably healthy for my age and very rarely need access to the NHS but I continue to contribute financially (and have done all my adult life) to provide support for those less fortunate than myself.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I agree, this is how the system should work. Everyone pays in whether they expect to use the system or not. I am reasonably healthy for my age and very rarely need access to the NHS but I continue to contribute financially (and have done all my adult life) to provide support for those less fortunate than myself.

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And that of course is as it should be. Why there's such a fuss about people with more Dosh not paying more is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I agree with what your saying but that's standard tax situation, this is Wales has mismanaged the budgets and needs additional funding to England as they prioritise longer lockdowns, lower speeds, hindering the economy, free money for care home kids leaving care homes etc etc so £800 please, £40 for you, it's free for you, it's not on people would go mental.

Get the priorities right, lower speed trips to Qatar, free prescriptions are not priorities.

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Free prescriptions for people unfortunate enough to be on very little money and with multiple health issues most certainly is a priority.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

And that of course is as it should be. Why there's such a fuss about people with more Dosh not paying more is beyond me.

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Maybe there could be some kind of scheme applied to contributions along the lines of Gift Aid i.e. H.M. Gov tops up contributions by 20%? I know it all comes from general taxation at the end of the day but it might make it easier to sell the idea to Joe Public.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Free prescriptions for people unfortunate enough to be on very little money and with multiple health issues most certainly is a priority.

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Agree.

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There is only a finite amount of money though. Free prescriptions is undoubtedly nice but the poorest in England get them anyway. In Wales we choose to give them to everyone. Again, a nice to have sure but arguably not the best use of money.

The best argument I have heard for it was that it would cost more to administer it if it was means tested. I'm not sure that's true if you base it on pre existing benefits and that also is an argument for universal benefits for everything

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Free prescriptions for people unfortunate enough to be on very little money and with multiple health issues most certainly is a priority.

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Exactly

Even when you discount the 'not wanting them to die' bit. It almost certainly makes financial sense in the long run.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

There is only a finite amount of money though. Free prescriptions is undoubtedly nice but the poorest in England get them anyway. In Wales we choose to give them to everyone. Again, a nice to have sure but arguably not the best use of money.

The best argument I have heard for it was that it would cost more to administer it if it was means tested. I'm not sure that's true if you base it on pre existing benefits and that also is an argument for universal benefits for everything

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It goes too far, no free Calpol or free gluten-free bread and crackers, and probably loads of other things that people could buy, but why bother when they can get a free prescription?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Free prescriptions for people unfortunate enough to be on very little money and with multiple health issues most certainly is a priority.

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In England, I think long-term proper meds free such as statins, etc, but if you have an infection and one-off anti-biotics, or hemorrhoid cream you pay for it, which makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I agree, this is how the system should work. Everyone pays in whether they expect to use the system or not. I am reasonably healthy for my age and very rarely need access to the NHS but I continue to contribute financially (and have done all my adult life) to provide support for those less fortunate than myself.

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Same here I'm happy with UK government tax, but I don't want to pay additional welsh tax for the NHS when the money wasn't prioritised and instead spent on other daft ideas like lower speeds than England, longer lockdowns and let's damage our economy more than England.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

In England, I think long-term proper meds free such as statins, etc, but if you have an infection and one-off anti-biotics, or hemorrhoid cream you pay for it, which makes sense.

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I’ve always thought that they should prescribe stuff not available over the counter for free.

Doesn’t seem right paying god knows how much to prescribe paracetamol when anyone can get them for 20p

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Same here I'm happy with UK government tax, but I don't want to pay additional welsh tax for the NHS when the money wasn't prioritised and instead spent on other daft ideas like lower speeds than England, longer lockdowns and let's damage our economy more than England.

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We haven't paid additional Welsh tax for the Welsh NHS though, so I don't follow your statement that the money was (past tense) instead spent on other daft ideas like lower speeds than England, [and] longer lockdowns?

Nye Bevan brought in the NHS bill and it was aimed mainly at those who could not afford health care , and it was not to be abused .. if he was introducing the bill today it wouldn't look the same , as its too big unfundable as it has been abused and rich folk should pay more and charges should be levied at those who abuse it ..

To think its the 5th biggest body or organisation in the world speaks volumes..

Yes Blair brought the waiting lists down and so will Kier but at what cost , more privatisation?? Or lashings of more money into a bottomless pit.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Nye Bevan brought in the NHS bill and it was aimed mainly at those who could not afford health care , and it was not to be abused .. if he was introducing the bill today it wouldn't look the same , as its too big unfundable as it has been abused and rich folk should pay more and charges should be levied at those who abuse it ..

To think its the 5th biggest body or organisation in the world speaks volumes..

Yes Blair brought the waiting lists down and so will Kier but at what cost , more privatisation?? Or lashings of more money into a bottomless pit.

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In all fairness a sensible post from you for a change

What is needed is 100 surgical hubs across Wales by the end of the year , bit like erecting nightingale hospital's , this takes the pressure off A&E . they would deal with minor keyhole surgeries etc , just need experienced full trained medical Nurse on better wages but less that the extortionate money GP 's earn ,they would operate longer weekday hours i.e. up to 8pm and weekends .

Given the money you could purchase refurbished artic lorries , bit like the ones Blood and MRI units use . I'd site them them in set large Doctors car parks or large industrial /shopping estates not in Hospitals ..

For the Cardiff lick off plan Id have one on Newport Road retail , one at Cardiff Gate , one by the City ground ,places like MacArthur Glenn are ideal .. I bet there are a few Blood vehicles just parked up all winter ..

I had my latest MRI scan in one of these lorries , bit chilly but hey its colder dead in the ground

I would have a two tier system for cosmetic health procedures based on means testing so if you want your penis enlarge or breast reduced or your waist fat sucked out some of you pay .

If I can sit and type this idea in why cant Welsh Health think and do the same , one of the biggest failings in Wales and Scotland was flushed out in the pandemic it exposed how poorly run the NHS is run in those countries and was way before Covid and our ability not to cope because of poor Welsh Government planning and budget cuts ..

No we don't want 18 more AM's costs , added bureaucracy , managers on £40 to £50k looking after a small hill in Wales , expenses , freebies paid by tax payers , free festivals , vanity art constructions , 18k living wages , we want care , education , policing, yep all in the gift of the magic Labour Party of Wales ..

All you do is get the the key things right first then flap around with voter friendly shite

Oh and leave the self gender crap alone that will cost us another department ,managers , public discussion , government time ( oh its coming old Mark has been a muttering ) yep it costs

We could do with Nightingale-style pop-up wards into which those folk who are well enough to leave hospital but can't because of lack of social care facilities, could be housed. This would free up beds and in turn ease the pressure on the ambulance service and A&E departments. Clearly if they are well enough to leave hospital then they don't need intensive nursing or medical supervision, just a kind of rehab facility until other provision becomes available.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

In all fairness a sensible post from you for a change

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Can't agree with that I'm afraid. Universal free healthcare is something to be cherished and preserved.