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Personal pronouns in the workplace
Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.
I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
I’ll admit this is something I don’t know enough about. I supported an old member of one of my teams with their transition from male to female but still don’t know enough.
As with everything in life I think a lot of education and conversation needs to take place. Too many dismiss these feelings as a “fad”, I’m sure the same was said of gay people back in the day.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.
I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.
We had a related discussion the other day. "They" just sounds wrong for an individual. If someone doesn't want to be a "he/him" or a "she/her" the only option left is "it".
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
I'm not bothered on people's personal choices and it makes no difference to me who someone is or becomes, man to woman woman to man, gay, lesbian, masturbates over robots, I literally don't care
But please don't shout at me if I happen to get the pronoun correct. I'm not doing it out of ignorance, as I said you are what you are and it's your business, but accept that not everyone is going to get things right and don't throw a hissy fit when people naturally do get it wrong.
Not sure if that's classed as a rant,but you have my word it's not one :hehe:
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.
I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.
The Church of England are considering the use of gender neutral terms for God. Maybe you could ask them what they'd do if someone didn't start the 'Lords' Prayer 'Our Parent, who art in Heaven...'?
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
I'm not bothered on people's personal choices and it makes no difference to me who someone is or becomes, man to woman woman to man, gay, lesbian, masturbates over robots, I literally don't care
But please don't shout at me if I happen to get the pronoun correct. I'm not doing it out of ignorance, as I said you are what you are and it's your business, but accept that not everyone is going to get things right and don't throw a hissy fit when people naturally do get it wrong.
Not sure if that's classed as a rant,but you have my word it's not one :hehe:
Please God tell me that ‘masturbates over robots’ was just something daft that you plucked out of thin air. :hehe:
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.
I have a " they " in my girls team, " they " have been a " they " for a while now, I used to struggle to remember ( I really did ), but after a while it becomes 2nd nature, as it happens as a " she ", " they " were one of my daughters best mates ( still are ), when we dont have a game I often bring them ( my daughter and her friend ) up to see city play
to be fair to " them ", who I explained to " them " that I would make mistakes and it wasnt me taking the pee, " they " said " I know Matt, you will try your best " " they " were very grown up about it and accepting that I would make mistakes, its was no drama when I did, still isnt, as occasionally I forget and get it wrong, " they " made the choice and are being very grown up about it when people do Make mistakes
when I call in the team, I have changed it from " in you come girls " to " come on in team " just to try and be respectful, as it happens " they " said to me " I still play for a girls team, so its ok to shout as you normally did " once again, showing a certain acceptance and maturity about the situation
When writing a match report, I found it tricky with them and they, but as you have seen above, I just use " they " ( for the person ) and they for the group, the Quotation mark has helped in that aspect
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
splott parker
Please God tell me that ‘masturbates over robots’ was just something daft that you plucked out of thin air. :hehe:
Yes :hehe:
First thing that popped in my head
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
I'm not bothered on people's personal choices and it makes no difference to me who someone is or becomes, man to woman woman to man, gay, lesbian, masturbates over robots, I literally don't care
But please don't shout at me if I happen to get the pronoun correct. I'm not doing it out of ignorance, as I said you are what you are and it's your business, but accept that not everyone is going to get things right and don't throw a hissy fit when people naturally do get it wrong.
Not sure if that's classed as a rant,but you have my word it's not one :hehe:
I agree with the getting it wrong. Unless someone is being blatantly antagonistic. The lady on my team was brilliant about it it be fair.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
UNDERHILL1927
I agree with the getting it wrong. Unless someone is being blatantly antagonistic. The lady on my team was brilliant about it it be fair.
Exactly mate, it's all new and it'll take time :thumbup:
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?
I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?
What a load of bollox!
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
It’s interesting observing this from afar, no such thing exists here, not even a consideration for discussion. I understand that the opinion will be that Poland is decades behind the UK but that’s the way it is.
It’s similar with regards to racism, the perception is very different
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?
I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?
What a load of bollox!
unless they are castrated? then there are no bollox
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?
I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?
What a load of bollox!
without coming across as all PC and snowflakey ( and I never thought I would type that on here about myself :shrug:) it really doesnt Hurt you to try and be obliging to Martin / Martina
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
blue matt
without coming across as all PC and snowflakey ( and I never thought I would type that on here about myself :shrug:) it really doesnt Hurt you to try and be obliging to Martin / Martina
Nothing snowflakey about empathy mate. The world needs more of it
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Des Parrot
It’s interesting observing this from afar, no such thing exists here, not even a consideration for discussion. I understand that the opinion will be that Poland is decades behind the UK but that’s the way it is.
It’s similar with regards to racism, the perception is very different
I know that it is also being addressed linguistically in France, Germany and Spain.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
Am I reading this correctly. Politeness dictates you have to refer to someone how they wish to be addressed?
I suppose that would extend to a crossdressing bloke who's 6' 4" and has a beard down to his knees whose name is Martin but identifies as Martina on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?
What a load of bollox!
Surely it's up to the person being addressed how they wish to be addressed? If everyone adhered to that simple bit of common decency we'd have no problems.
I'm sure that if I addressed you as a prejudiced old cock face you'd not be too happy, which is why I never would never refer to you as that.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
blue matt
without coming across as all PC and snowflakey ( and I never thought I would type that on here about myself :shrug:) it really doesnt Hurt you to try and be obliging to Martin / Martina
Absolutely, and this is what I cannot understand. Some people get all annoyed at not being able to address someone as they want because that person doesn't want it. Weird.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
What I don’t get is why anyone would want to be referred to as it.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
What I don’t get is why anyone would want to be referred to as it.
Apart from that cousin in the Addams Family.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
What I don’t get is why anyone would want to be referred to as it.
Isn't it the correct way though if you stick to the rules of the English language?
Calling a single person they, they is plural isn't it?
I know it doesn't sound nice and I understand not wishing to be called it, but it is the right word.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Surely it's up to the person being addressed how they wish to be addressed? If everyone adhered to that simple bit of common decency we'd have no problems.
I'm sure that if I addressed you as a prejudiced old cock face you'd not be too happy, which is why I never would never refer to you as that.
You may be okay to go along with an obvious pretence rather than risk causing offence, but some of us retain a backbone.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
Isn't it the correct way though if you stick to the rules of the English language?
Calling a single person they, they is plural isn't it?
I know it doesn't sound nice and I understand not wishing to be called it, but it is the right word.
I take your point, but I’ll always think calling a person it is either an insult, a joke or a mixture of both.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
Isn't it the correct way though if you stick to the rules of the English language?
Calling a single person they, they is plural isn't it?
I know it doesn't sound nice and I understand not wishing to be called it, but it is the right word.
There is a case when 'they' has been traditionally and correctly used as a singular (and on lieu of "he or she" e.g. "Regarding the person who borrowed the spare laptop, would they please return it as soon as possible."
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
I've referred to Neil Warnock here today as 'he' and as far as I know s/he self-identifies as a female, or gender neutral, and might be offended.
If it's impossible for a male to be a female and vice versa then it's every bit as impossible for a male or female to be a sausage roll or teapot.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
There is a case when 'they' has been traditionally and correctly used as a singular (and on lieu of "he or she" e.g. "Regarding the person who borrowed the spare laptop, would they please bring it back to the office"
And them?
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I take your point, but I’ll always think calling a person it is either an insult, a joke or a mixture of both.
I agree it sounds horrible
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
I've referred to Neil Warnock here today as 'he' and as far as I know s/he self-identifies as a female, or gender neutral, and might be offended.
If it's impossible for a male to be a female and vice versa then it's every bit as impossible for a male or female to be a sausage roll or teapot.
You know that’s bollox, stop being pedantic for the sake of it. Live and let live ffs
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
You may be okay to go along with an obvious pretence rather than risk causing offence, but some of us retain a backbone.
So if someone asked you to refer to them in a certain way, you'd disrespect their wishes because you've got a backbone?
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
And them?
'Them' is simply the accusative form of 'they:
"If they bring it back to the office, I'll update it and return it to them".
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
Des Parrot
It’s interesting observing this from afar, no such thing exists here, not even a consideration for discussion. I understand that the opinion will be that Poland is decades behind the UK but that’s the way it is.
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
I have met some strange women on my travels
One lass called Edwina was definitely closer to an Edward
I did a runner
It takes all sorts
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I have met some strange women on my travels
One lass called Edwina was definitely closer to an Edward
I did a runner
It takes all sorts
That's after you'd paid "her" £50 and taken her back to your wankpad, where you had the surprise that was advertised but not expected.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
The question if we are to take things to an extreme is thus
A bloke , called David , is in prison for sexual assault on a woman
He's given 10 years inside
Halfway through he changes into a woman through surgery , tablets and psychological therapy
He's well behaved as a prisoner and when he comes out he meets a man and they get married
He's no longer deemed a threat to women by the authorities
He's now known as Davina
He's introduced to people as Davina and although it's obvious she's still go plenty of male physical characteristics people accept he as a she
What would be your reaction if your wife or girlfriend was sexually assaulted when she was younger and told you she was in the ladies toilets on Saturday night and this davina came in and was coming on to her and she had to get the bouncers ?
Because I think respecting people and understanding that a man wanting to be a woman or a woman wanting to be a man has been part of human life since we evolved ....and I think being told dave is now davina and doing your best to try to remember that and treat davina as a woman is absolutely the right thing that decent people do
But what the christ are we going to do when men who have become women and want the rights of women suddenly don't play by the rules ?
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
non binary, but plays for a girls team so happy with female when it suits her
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
It needs to be accepted that people will have different opinions as well, arguing and calling someone names because they don't follow the same opinion as the group is a bit silly really.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The question if we are to take things to an extreme is thus
A bloke , called David , is in prison for sexual assault on a woman
He's given 10 years inside
Halfway through he changes into a woman through surgery , tablets and psychological therapy
He's well behaved as a prisoner and when he comes out he meets a man and they get married
He's no longer deemed a threat to women by the authorities
He's now known as Davina
He's introduced to people as Davina and although it's obvious she's still go plenty of male physical characteristics people accept he as a she
What would be your reaction if your wife or girlfriend was sexually assaulted when she was younger and told you she was in the ladies toilets on Saturday night and this davina came in and was coming on to her and she had to get the bouncers ?
Because I think respecting people and understanding that a man wanting to be a woman or a woman wanting to be a man has been part of human life since we evolved ....and I think being told dave is now davina and doing your best to try to remember that and treat davina as a woman is absolutely the right thing that decent people do
But what the christ are we going to do when men who have become women and want the rights of women suddenly don't play by the rules ?
The same thing that happens now if a woman born as a woman doesn’t “play by the rules”. As you said, call the bouncer.
You think there’s never been a single incident of a woman coming onto another woman without consent?
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.
The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.
I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.
All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.
In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.
All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.
Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.
The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.
I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.
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Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace
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Originally Posted by
SuperBluebirds91
Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.
The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.
I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.
All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.
In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.
All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done :-) The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.
Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.
The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.
I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.
Thanks for your honesty, very refreshing. I’d love to know more, ignorance isn’t bliss, education is bliss.
There’s a few in here using the usual whataboutery.
Black lives matter - all lives matter in nature.
Rather than judge people by the media and their ridiculous biases, I prefer to listen to real people like you, so thank you.