https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65085345
Sounds like a big old can of worms to me
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65085345
Sounds like a big old can of worms to me
So messy.
It's massively unfair on women.
But if one club or country includes transgender women then the rest will follow just to compete if nothing else.
Is the future just one mixed game open to all?
"The German football association (DFB) has made a first step by introducing a policy this season across the amateur and youth game that allows transgender and non-binary players to choose if they play in men's or women's teams - a move it says puts inclusion at the heart of the sport without jeopardising player safety or fairness.
DFB diversity ambassador Thomas Hitzlsperger said the organisation was "leading the way" on inclusion and that other footballing nations, including England, Scotland and Wales, have been in contact to find out more.
But attitudes towards transgender inclusion outside Germany are very different and there are big concerns about fairness and the safety of other athletes."
From the article:
Insisting this is "not about having a huge advantage", the 40-year-old former Aston Villa and West Ham midfielder suggested "it takes more than just being strong and fast, it takes skill and team effort to play football".
But strength and pace would be a massive advantage at that kind of level. You'd have to be a lot worse skillwise not to stand out.
Rumour has it Christina Ronaldo has just signed for Bayern Munich Women.
I can remember back in school the girls 6th form hockey team were county champions, they arranged a match between the girls team and a collection of 6th form boys - none of whom had ever played hockey before, I think perhaps one played roller hockey.
the boys team absolutely thrashed the girls 5-0 I think, despite having little to no skill and no tactics or coaching - they were just a lot stronger and faster, first to every ball and outnumbered the girls all over the pitch.
clearly pace and skill weren't enough to offset the advantage on that day.
it's a really difficult issue - I'm all for trans people living their life however they like and don't want to see anyone excluded from sport or any other area of life, but then you think what is the whole point of women's sport - to allow women to compete in areas they otherwise wouldn't have any chance.
if you could absolutely guarantee that trans women had no residual physical advantage over cis women then I think most people would be fine with it, but I just don't think that is the case.
of course the numbers of trans people are very small- so we don't see huge numbers if them dominating women's sport, but does that make it ok?
no idea what the solution should be though
Transgender people should be respected and the days of bullying and harassment are hopefully slowly fading
But it's totally wrong for a person with masculine physical strength and power to compete with women
They should be totally respected for what they are and what they identify with but unless sport is totally coalesced or merged or whatever then someone born male is going to have a distinct physical advantage over women in the same or opposition team or over an individual opponent
So it's no
Agree with this. Anyone who watches sport regularly will understand the difference between men in women in terms of speed, strength and stamina. Some argue that it's just down to testosterone and if a man reduces that it's a level playing field, but it's clearly more than that. Could a woman increase her testosterone for a year/2 years and be competitive against men? No.
Athletics and swimming have both said that trans athletes can't compete in women's races and are exploring "open categories" instead. Not sure how that would work.
It can be a difficult one and I can see the arguments on either side for this.
For:
It should be noted that when trans woman take hormones they have a significant reduction in muscle and strength. They are no where near male competitors. There are many changes in the body caused by taking hormones and therefore it isn’t really fair for trans woman to compete against men.
It will allow trans woman to take part if they decide not to transition as not everyone does or can.
If this had been a problem there would be many trans woman athletes winning gold medals all over the place which is not the case. Infact I don’t think any were qualifying for world elite athletics prior to the current restrictions anyway.
It keeps everyone included in sports as sports is for everyone. There isn’t enough trans people in sports to make up another category at present.
Much of this whole banning trans woman from sports has stemmed from an attack on the minority group via the same groups that attacked gay people 25 years ago. They await to see who is the most vulnerable and begin because it is easy to target vulnerable people. Woman’s rights are used as a weapon but unfortunately the very people who think they are fighting for these rights are often attacking them - you attack woman’s rights you attack trans women! They are also quite nazi like in their approach. Something I have no time for. Give it about 20 years and these people will realise they’ve actually caused A lot of harm but it’ll be too late then for apologies.
There are so many other factors that give people advantages in sport and these even include illnesses that cause a higher level of test prone in woman. Not to mention height weight and talent. Are they going to ban every woman who had an advantage.
Why does it have to be an attack in trans people?
Why can't it simply be in the interest of fairness?
Following on from my post above where I started the arguments for allowing trans woman.
This below is against -
Some trans woman aren’t able to transition so may have advantage but I stress the word May here as some woman are much better than me at their sport.
It allows time for more research.
Trans woman may still have a small advantage even after taking hormones but we don’t know the full effects because not enough non biased research has been done yet.
Finally to add to my post and speaking from experience I was born female but I am a trans guy hence I have witnessed the loss of muscle and strength in trans woman first hand. It’s a very common issue.
To finish off though I was born female and prior to taking hormones I used to play football with the boys at school who were all around my age. Most of them I would run rings and that’s not blowing my own trumpet - I was just better than them despite the physically differences.
Aren't men generally stronger and faster than women?
Wouldn't people who were once men, now competing as women, be naturally stronger and faster than women?
See my two posts above. We don’t know for definite because not much research has been done. Without trans woman competing in sports we may never have the research. Of course men on the whole are stronger but when trans woman start taking hormones heir muscle power and strength has a significant reduction so it would no longer be fair for them to be in the men’s category. That said there may still be a small advantage and his so what we need to look at. That small advantage that is seen my many woman for many different reasons. This could be their height, their weight, talent, their genetic make up any underlying illnesses that increase testosterone. There are so many things that could be taken into account but what are they going to do ban all woman who have advantages?
Hopefully one day everyone can be included and on a level where everyone is happy.
We do not know the answer to that though yet - no one does. Assumptions have been made and by myself too - In saying that it reduces but we don’t know for definite.
As stated before trans woman have pretty bad in elite sports so we know that they do not cause a threat to women’s sports but this is a small number. Maybe what Germany are doing. Will give us the answers in a few years time.
We are moving towards equality ?
Which is good
But until we have definite scientific back up about the capability of trans men or women competing in sport ......let's use the example of a person who has trans from a man into a woman ......then shouldn't we , in the spirit of fairness not allow trans people to compete until we are more aware of any long term advantages or disadvantages ?
If we have transgender Olympics etc for now then it's not perfect but it's more fair than allowing people with male muscularity lift weights against females ?
I think that’s what the intention is but this is the issue with no trans women allowed in women’s sports we will never be able to gain the research. The thing is there aren’t enough trans women in sports to have a category on its own? There hasn’t been hardly any trans women winning or qualifying for elite world athletes and that was prior to the restrictions so this kind of tells me that it was never really an issue in the first place. Like I said above there are so many advantages that one women will have over another anyway - are they going to ban them too? (as stated in above posts).
It’s funny how this has never been an issue in the past - if it had been a problem I think we would have known about it. Could you imagine if they suddenly said no men are allowed to compete if they have a the sprinter gene!
There have been two major studies on testosterone reduction in trans identifying males and they show a negligible difference in performance, and there are a myriad of other physiological advantages that someone born male would have over a woman.
It doesn't matter if someone is winning gold medals all over the place or not, they would still be taking the place of a woman who has far more right to be in the competition in the first place.
This isn't the same as the attack on gay rights; this argument has come about in recent years because of self-ID and trans rights activism. Some of the trans activism has been brutal and designed to shut women up - the latest inclination to label them as nazis, as you have, is part of the propaganda.
The advantages of height etc exist within a category. If you're that much faster than everyone else then good for you, but being a different sex is entirely something else.
The girls won the sixth form hockey game against the boys in our school, the fact that they weren’t too particular about whether they were hitting the ball or the opponent with their sticks, whereas the men were playing at being proper gentlemen probably helped a bit.
Probably showing my ignorance here, but wouldn’t trans only competitions be a way around the problem or are there not enough of them to get anything of a decent standard organised?
Trans people are being used as an scape goat in a culture war. Unfortunately it is exactly the same as when other minority groups have been attacked in the past. There are many anti trans groups that target individual trans people and go out of their way to attack them either via social media or to be used in speeches etc. I haven’t just read this stuff - I’ve literally been witnessing it for quite a few years. It’s getting worse and worse. Believe it or not there are people who are like this. Very sad and cause so much harm.
Yes there has been in increase in trans awareness and trans people have been fighting for a better quality of life but has been met with a push back by radical feminist groups. Most feminist are happy with how things are progressing for trans people but there is a group that have been going out of their and campaigning against trans right and using women’s rights as a weapon to attack them. Trans women aren’t ever going to try and shut women up as they are women themselves and will do everything to fight for women’s right themselves. Trans people aren’t dangerous however it has been made out in an indirect way that somehow trans people are a danger to other women by letting them enter the women’s toilet. This has been happening for decades but where are all these assault cases then? We would sure know about it by now if there were. In contrast tens women are at a very high risk of assault. The words of people who are in a position of power to do so much good in the world have caused so much harm. Trans people are also at high risk of self harm and suicide.
There is a lot of anti trans propaganda and trans people alongside people who can see through it all have pointed out how nazi like it is. It will probably take years before people wil realise their mistakes but like I said in a previous post it will be too late for an apology jus like gay people too many trans people will have died as a direct result of anti trans campaign. You say brutal - you have no idea how brutal these groups are.
Nothing wrong with asking questions - I have no issue with that but really who would I listen to - someone who has 50 years experience of being trans or a person who has joined a radical feminist group who doesn’t know the first thing about being trans.
Just my opinions above and not argument against you personally - it’s just when you are trans yourself and you have many trans friends and then some group start chanting about trans women being a danger or at every attempt you make to try and improve your life someone is there saying no you can’t do it - it becomes abit sad.
Just one final thing to add regarding trans activism - it really isn’t that big a scale. The people that seem to shout the loudest are the anti trans campaigners. Of course there is a push back because people are fed up with - it’s got very personal. Trans people will always be here long after these people have moved on o attacking another vulnerable group sadly.
Unfortunately there are hardly any trans women at the elite level anyway. In amateur level and youth there maybe more opportunity. I’ve know trans women participate in various sports previously and there is no issue with it by anyone there. Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if a trans woman would hold back more in any case because they wouldn’t want to be accused of being any better. Hopefully one day it will be resolved properly so everyone can be involved.
People who are anti trans are ignorant.
You may think my opinion is ignorant as well, and I may be totally oblivious to the fact I'm an ignorant person, I just don't see why trans women should be allowed to complete with women.
I'm not part of my group and I don't even watch the news to be brainwashed, I don't do social media either as that's also full of ignorant people, I'm probably not aware of the scale of the whole thing, I base my opinions on what I see and think.
Everyone should have a place to compete, go to school, feel comfortable etc but I personally don't think this is it.
That’s probably a good thing to stay of social media anyway whether it is this topic or another because these days people will use any excuse to attack someone. The news is another. I’m not saying and I don’t think many are saying that trans woman (pre transition) are the same level of strength to women in general. Fully transitioned - alot nearer. I know trans woman who have lost so much muscle strength since transitioning I expect they would be On a level playing field to women. Hopefully something will be done to resolve the issue where all parties are happy.
I certainly didn’t think you are ignorant. I think the worst thing is that it is being used by some (and I am only referring to some people) as a way to attack trans women. That’s the aspect I don’t like about it. I have no issue with it all being looked into and trying to find the best solution. When you see comments that deliberately Mis gender people for example they’ll write he in capitals or get very personal about genitalia or the fact the trans women are going to expose themselves to vulnerable people blah blah blah that’s the part that gets me very upset because that’s the part that I think most of know is untrue. Again this is usually people on social media etc.
Anyway I hope no one thought my comments to be offensive or too one sided. Of course I will probably appear biased as I am trans but then I have a lot of experience of being trans.
I hope that my comments or replies have helped and been respectful but if you don’t agree you don’t have to read them again.
It can be quite a heated debate because it can feel like a personal attack on who you are and invalid your feelings.
Hopefully a solution will be found that is good for all parties.
SB91, of course there have been transgender people around for ages and using women's bathrooms but, as far as I know, only transexual women had that concession. What seems to have changed is that TRAs have proposed that anyone who simply declares they're the opposite sex to which they were born would be allowed the same right. Women's right groups have been pointing out the issues involving safeguarding (against predatory men taking advantage of this, and there are a few who already have) and have received death and rape threats and personal attacks, including at a couple of events last week.
Maybe I'm wrong but I know of no group who are outwardly anti-trans (I don't doubt there are idiots around who give them stick just because they're different) but only those who have prioritised women's sex-based rights ahead of the feelings of males in particular areas such as sports, prisons, welfare centres etc. There are members of the trans community and detransitioners who seem to agree with this (and they get stick as well).
I wish you well, SB; I don't envy what you're going through, but there seems to be a strategic bludgeoning of the issue from some trans rights activists which is obviously not helpful.