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The Liberal Democrats
Unless Proportional Representation is brought in they are forever going to be a minor party or a protest vote
Very poor showing again last night
Shame as I think a strong Liberal party within a left of centre opposition would represent a lot of ordinary voters
They may well form part of a coalition with Labour if Starmer doesn't get enough seats
Many would be happy with that as long as it kept out the blue rabble
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Unless Proportional Representation is brought in they are forever going to be a minor party or a protest vote
Very poor showing again last night
Shame as I think a strong Liberal party within a left of centre opposition would represent a lot of ordinary voters
They may well form part of a coalition with Labour if Starmer doesn't get enough seats
Many would be happy with that as long as it kept out the blue rabble
You say that but the last time the Liberals had a chance of keeping the Tories out they ended up jumping into bed with them and we've all ended up being fuucked by the Tories ever since.
I wonder what that cuunt Clegg is doing now? Toes up hopefully.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
You say that but the last time the Liberals had a chance of keeping the Tories out they ended up jumping into bed with them and we've all ended up being fuucked by the Tories ever since.
I wonder what that cuunt Clegg is doing now? Toes up hopefully.
The liberals wanted to team up with labour but brown wasn't interested
So they shagged the devil and got bit
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
You say that but the last time the Liberals had a chance of keeping the Tories out they ended up jumping into bed with them and we've all ended up being fuucked by the Tories ever since.
I wonder what that cuunt Clegg is doing now? Toes up hopefully.
Still selling his soul to Facebook isn't he?
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Still selling his soul to Facebook isn't he?
Who was the tall ginger Scottish liberal of that time ?
Cameron was a used car salesman
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
You say that but the last time the Liberals had a chance of keeping the Tories out they ended up jumping into bed with them and we've all ended up being fuucked by the Tories ever since.
I wonder what that cuunt Clegg is doing now? Toes up hopefully.
Forgotten what life was like in 2008-2010 have you?!
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
I don't even know what the Lib Dems stand for. At least with the Tories/Labour it's pretty clear cut: Tories stand for inequality and greed; Labour stands for fairness and justice. But what exactly floats your average Lib Dem's boat? I'm buggered if I know.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Forgotten what life was like in 2008-2010 have you?!
No, I remember quite well, you?
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
No, I remember quite well, you?
Yeah, I had a few mates lose their jobs. One had a House repossessed.
I remember expenses scandals, cut backs, low morale, airlines going bust when people were abroad, a pretty severe recession, lads dying in Afghanistan, house price collapse, negative equity, bank bailouts using our money, unemployment being far higher than it is now.
Was no picnic. The world hasn't been the same since before the 2008 crash really.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah, I had a few mates lose their jobs. One had a House repossessed.
I remember expenses scandals, cut backs, low morale, airlines going bust when people were abroad, a pretty severe recession, lads dying in Afghanistan, house price collapse, negative equity, bank bailouts using our money, unemployment being far higher than it is now.
Was no picnic. The world hasn't been the same since before the 2008 crash really.
Thank fuuck that Clegg then decided to hang out of Cameron's arse to make the UK a better place!
It's been an absolute ball since.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah, I had a few mates lose their jobs. One had a House repossessed.
I remember expenses scandals, cut backs, low morale, airlines going bust when people were abroad, a pretty severe recession, lads dying in Afghanistan, house price collapse, negative equity, bank bailouts using our money, unemployment being far higher than it is now.
Was no picnic. The world hasn't been the same since before the 2008 crash really.
You remember faaack all then
Because as you keep trying to tell us you voted for Labour then
So any of literal analysis needs to be viewed with half an eye closed
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You remember faaack all then
Because as you keep trying to tell us you voted for Labour then
So any of literal analysis needs to be viewed with half an eye closed
2010 I think I voted Lib Dem.
I've just checked..
The economy declined five quarters in a row.
Average wages fell. Not accounting for inflation. The actual average wage fell.
Unemployment was 8%. Youth unemployment 20%. Both pretty much double the last few years.
Consumer confidence hit -40.
Covid aside, 2008-10 were the worst years in recent history in many respects.
Anyone who thought that was automatically fixed by a change of government was wrong. Anyone who thinks that now is the same.
Not to say there aren't other benefits of change, but the fundamentals won't change.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
2010 I think I voted Lib Dem.
I've just checked..
The economy declined five quarters in a row.
Average wages fell. Not accounting for inflation. The actual average wage fell.
Unemployment was 8%. Youth unemployment 20%. Both pretty much double the last few years.
Consumer confidence hit -40.
Covid aside, 2008-10 were the worst years in recent history in many respects.
Anyone who thought that was automatically fixed by a change of government was wrong. Anyone who thinks that now is the same.
Not to say there aren't other benefits of change, but the fundamentals won't change.
2008 - 10, global recession, perhaps poorly managed v Brexit and Truss where the UK 'powers that be' committed economic hari Kiri.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
2008 - 10, global recession, perhaps poorly managed v Brexit and Truss where the UK 'powers that be' committed economic hari Kiri.
It's just this whole "13 years" thing, as if things were good before. They werent, they were worse than anything since.
Global causes yes, but that's the same now.
It's just rhetoric really, but I guess that's politics for you.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's just this whole "13 years" thing, as if things were good before. They werent, they were worse than anything since.
Global causes yes, but that's the same now.
It's just rhetoric really, but I guess that's politics for you.
Truss tanking the economy wasn't global neither was Brexit.
The 13 years thing, the only person to mention it in this thread is you.
That said the UK economy performed strongly from 1997 up to the recession in 2008.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's just this whole "13 years" thing, as if things were good before. They werent, they were worse than anything since.
Global causes yes, but that's the same now.
It's just rhetoric really, but I guess that's politics for you.
I would rather get a slap from a mate than some lump in the pub
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Truss tanking the economy wasn't global neither was Brexit.
The 13 years thing, the only person to mention it in this thread is you.
That said the UK economy performed strongly from 1997 up to the recession in 2008.
No, the impact of the Truss budget was selfmade, but it hasn't impacted much long term at all. Same with Brexit, despite all the noise.
And you are right.. it did. But from 2008 it didn't. That has set the tone for lower growth across the west since. We've never recovered.
I hope we do if we got a new government but I doubt it.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
I don't even know what the Lib Dems stand for. At least with the Tories/Labour it's pretty clear cut: Tories stand for inequality and greed; Labour stands for fairness and justice. But what exactly floats your average Lib Dem's boat? I'm buggered if I know.
I don't think there is an average Lib Dem. They have been chameleons since the days of David Steele. In Labour areas (like mine) they are Yellow Tories. In Tory areas they are Yellow Social Democrats. In some parts of the south west they sound and act like Greens.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I don't think there is an average Lib Dem. They have been chameleons since the days of David Steele. In Labour areas (like mine) they are Yellow Tories. In Tory areas they are Yellow Social Democrats. In some parts of the south west they sound and act like Greens.
Agree on this. Like many third parties I guess they fill the gaps depending on where they exist.
Lib Dems can be very different across the country. Only thing that is consistent is their dodgy bar charts.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's just this whole "13 years" thing, as if things were good before. They werent, they were worse than anything since.
Global causes yes, but that's the same now.
It's just rhetoric really, but I guess that's politics for you.
So, why is it then that probably the most effective line that Labour can come out with at the moment is the simple question "are you better off now than you were thirteen years ago?"
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk...rG60vuEv-jKP_e
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No, the impact of the Truss budget was selfmade, but it hasn't impacted much long term at all. Same with Brexit, despite all the noise.
And you are right.. it did. But from 2008 it didn't. That has set the tone for lower growth across the west since. We've never recovered.
I hope we do if we got a new government but I doubt it.
You don't know this. Please don't try and pass it off as fact. I think you'll be proved very wrong.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiss Peter
You don't know this. Please don't try and pass it off as fact. I think you'll be proved very wrong.
Exactly this.
What we do know is that since Brexit (and the end of Covid) the UK has experienced higher rates of inflation, we have a shortage of workers, even Twaaty Tim from Spoons acknowledges this and our economy growth rate lags behind the rest of the G7 countries.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit though?
Luckily for the UK, Liz Truss came to save the day:hehe:
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I don't think there is an average Lib Dem. They have been chameleons since the days of David Steele. In Labour areas (like mine) they are Yellow Tories. In Tory areas they are Yellow Social Democrats. In some parts of the south west they sound and act like Greens.
Truss was once a Liberal.
I rest my case m’lud.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Because it's political rhetoric. It's obvious why they do it. I would do it. It's a good attack line. But an even better question is are you better off that you were 15 years ago! That's my point. People forget what 2008-2010 was like.
This idea that things changed in 2010 with a new govt. It's wrong. Things changed in 2008.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Exactly this.
What we do know is that since Brexit (and the end of Covid) the UK has experienced higher rates of inflation, we have a shortage of workers, even Twaaty Tim from Spoons acknowledges this and our economy growth rate lags behind the rest of the G7 countries.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit though?
Luckily for the UK, Liz Truss came to save the day:hehe:
There has been essentially zero impact on GDP growth of it Vs other comparable countries.
Our inflation did not peak higher.
Our unemployment is noticeably lower
Our wage growth is higher
Our experts to the EU are now far higher too.
It's made some things harder for some businesses thats true. You can put some things in the negative column, that's not in. Dispute. But overall there is no notable impact.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There has been essentially zero impact on GDP growth of it Vs other comparable countries.
Our inflation did not peak higher.
Our unemployment is noticeably lower
Our wage growth is higher
Our experts to the EU are now far higher too.
It's made some things harder for some businesses thats true. You can put some things in the negative column, that's not in. Dispute. But overall there is no notable impact.
Jimmy dying on a hill all for the love of Brexit. He sounds like the Black Knight outta Monty Python.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There has been essentially zero impact on GDP growth of it Vs other comparable countries.
Our inflation did not peak higher.
Our unemployment is noticeably lower
Our wage growth is higher
Our experts to the EU are now far higher too.
It's made some things harder for some businesses thats true. You can put some things in the negative column, that's not in. Dispute. But overall there is no notable impact.
You're obfuscating Jimbo. Good to see your Brexit tinted nuance is working though.
Let's go through what I said again.
GDP lower than G7 countries.
UK experienced higher rates of inflation.
Shortage of workers.
I'll give you wage growth has been higher in the UK but that's due to a shortage of workers, its also led to higher inflation. Who'd have thought it uh?
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Jimmy dying on a hill all for the love of Brexit. He sounds like the Black Knight outta Monty Python.
It only took a moment Ducky! No dying on hills needed.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
You're obfuscating Jimbo. Good to see your Brexit tinted nuance is working though.
Let's go through what I said again.
GDP lower than G7 countries.
UK experienced higher rates of inflation.
Shortage of workers.
I'll give you wage growth has been higher in the UK but that's due to a shortage of workers, its also led to higher inflation. Who'd have thought it uh?
First bit isn't true.
Second bit isn't true
Third bit..well yeah..you limit supply of workers and UK workers benefit. What do you want? Lower wages?
Theres a tonne of data out there. Unemployment, stock market, wages, investment, GDP, inflation. It's naturally mixed but none of it points to much of an impact at all
And as has been pointed out before. We left the EU a few weeks before Covid hit our shores. So it's only now that clear patterns emerge and out GDP growth is above our peers.
Essentially absolutely nothing of what was predicted by some has happened. Just accept it and move on. It's been 7 years!
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
First bit isn't true.
Second bit isn't true
Third bit..well yeah..you limit supply of workers and UK workers benefit. What do you want? Lower wages?
Theres a tonne of data out there. Unemployment, stock market, wages, investment, GDP, inflation. It's naturally mixed but none of it points to much of an impact at all
And as has been pointed out before. We left the EU a few weeks before Covid hit our shores. So it's only now that clear patterns emerge and out GDP growth is above our peers.
Essentially absolutely nothing of what was predicted by some has happened. Just accept it and move on. It's been 7 years!
First bit
https://www.theguardian.com/business...tedly-in-march
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64450882
Second bit
https://news.sky.com/story/oecd-says...0from%205.4%25.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/int.../103789660.cms
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/why...em-2023-05-26/
Granted inflation has stabilised the last month.
I've moved on from Brexit ages ago. I'm pointing our what the UK has experienced since and still of the opinion it was economic hari kiri.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
First bits are out of date. It was all revised up recently. The UK outstripping France and Germany.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-...23-2023-09-29/
Germany itself is experiencing a recession.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonco...catch-a-break/
Inflation peaks at different points but basically everyone peaked at circa 10-11%. Before the peak our inflation was generally lower (a month or so behind) and so after we were higher for longer.
Inflation is a recurring problem, no doubt, but it is is everywhere and it may be linked to higher wages. As mentioned our wage growth v inflation ratio has been better than most.
Unemployment - lower here. Stock exchange - generally better here. Value of pound - generally worse here. The pattern goes on. It's mixed but nothing points to any kind of negative impact, let alone a disaster.
No one disputes tough times, but it's the same everywhere. It amazes me how many pro-europeans don't seem to follow what's happening there!
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
First bits are out of date. It was all revised up recently. The UK outstripping France and Germany.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-...23-2023-09-29/
Germany itself is experiencing a recession.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonco...catch-a-break/
Inflation peaks at different points but basically everyone peaked at circa 10-11%. Before the peak our inflation was generally lower (a month or so behind) and so after we were higher for longer.
Inflation is a recurring problem, no doubt, but it is is everywhere and it may be linked to higher wages. As mentioned our wage growth v inflation ratio has been better than most.
Unemployment - lower here. Stock exchange - generally better here. Value of pound - generally worse here. The pattern goes on. It's mixed but nothing points to any kind of negative impact, let alone a disaster.
No one disputes tough times, but it's the same everywhere. It amazes me how many pro-europeans don't seem to follow what's happening there!
"The data ... does not change the big picture that the economy has lagged behind all other G7 countries aside from Germany and France since the pandemic. And that's before the full drag from higher interest rates has been felt," said Ruth Gregory, deputy chief UK economist at Capital Economics.
Source:
Your Reuters link.
Cheers butt.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
"The data ... does not change the big picture that the economy has lagged behind all other G7 countries aside from Germany and France since the pandemic. And that's before the full drag from higher interest rates has been felt," said Ruth Gregory, deputy chief UK economist at Capital Economics.
Source:
Your Reuters link.
Cheers butt.
So it's the ones outside the EU doing better then?!
Far more than just the G7 to compare it to as well.
Unfortunately - and I know you want it to be there -but the evidence simply isn't there.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
So it's the ones outside the EU doing better then?!
Far more than just the G7 to compare it to as well.
Unfortunately - and I know you want it to be there -but the evidence simply isn't there.
I'll play your game as I'm bored and you obviously can't read what I've actually posted.
Let's look at the GDP forecasts for countries in and outside the G7.
I'm now feeling really optimistic by these predictions.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...growth-europe/
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
I'll play your game as I'm bored and you obviously can't read what I've actually posted.
Let's look at the GDP forecasts for countries in and outside the G7.
I'm now feeling really optimistic by these predictions.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...growth-europe/
No, lets look at real data instead. Because it has outperformed estimates at every turn.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No, lets look at real data instead. Because it has outperformed estimates at every turn.
We have looked at real data.:shrug:
You keep on saying it’s either now not relevant or didn’t happen?:shrug:
You even started to tell me what I was thinking.
It’s good to hear that the UK economy has outperformed estimates at every turn and the broad sun lit uplands are just around the corner though because evidence suggests it’s been a bit of a shiitshow.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
We have looked at real data.:shrug:
You keep on saying it’s either now not relevant or didn’t happen?:shrug:
You even started to tell me what I was thinking.
It’s good to hear that the UK economy has outperformed estimates at every turn and the broad sun lit uplands are just around the corner though because evidence suggests it’s been a bit of a shiitshow.
You presented old data, that has since been amended - I gave the link to that. Then predictions. Maybe they'll be true, but they haven't been so far.
The real data just doesn't show what you want it to.
And yes, Covid, Ukraine, all huge deals but the fact is some Europeans countries are in recession, ours isn't. It's not sunlit uplands but leaving the EU hasn't meant we perform worse than our peers..it just doesn't.
You can keep trying to find ways to show it (and I have no idea why you would be so keen to anyway, it's our country afterall) but the balance of data simply doesn't show it. Labour will never take us back in the EU, cos they know it's not worth it.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
You presented old data, that has since been amended - I gave the link to that. Then predictions. Maybe they'll be true, but they haven't been so far.
The real data just doesn't show what you want it to.
And yes, Covid, Ukraine, all huge deals but the fact is some Europeans countries are in recession, ours isn't. It's not sunlit uplands but leaving the EU hasn't meant we perform worse than our peers..it just doesn't.
You can keep trying to find ways to show it (and I have no idea why you would be so keen to anyway, it's our country afterall) but the balance of data simply doesn't show it. Labour will never take us back in the EU, cos they know it's not worth it.
Jimbo, you bounded into this thread pontificating that some were using political rhetoric, no evidence mind and using your own forecasts as conclusive proof that all is well.
You've also tried to construct the narrative of other people's opinions who have produced evidence in support of the points made. There's also appears an ability to acknowledge points made actually did happen.
You've now determined any suggestive forecasts from other organisations as not really worth considering, although your opening gambit is a forecast and opinion.
Your points seem to be made up of uhhhmmm... political rhetoric and forecasts? My interpretation obviously.
Within your posts there is also a fair sprinkling of condescension and amazement that others can't interpret the statistics available similarly to your obvious greater knowledge on the subject.
It's a gift really. Hope you don't fall off that pedestal you've placed yourself? It'll be a long drop butt.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
I suspect you're wasting your time, Jordi.
Chucking out a few indicators of current economic performance (which in themselves are skewed to fit the point being made) seems to me to betray an inability (or unwillingness) to see a much bigger longer-term picture.
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Re: The Liberal Democrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Jimbo, you bounded into this thread pontificating that some were using political rhetoric, no evidence mind and using your own forecasts as conclusive proof that all is well.
You've also tried to construct the narrative of other people's opinions who have produced evidence in support of the points made. There's also appears an ability to acknowledge points made actually did happen.
You've now determined any suggestive forecasts from other organisations as not really worth considering, although your opening gambit is a forecast and opinion.
Your points seem to be made up of uhhhmmm... political rhetoric and forecasts? My interpretation obviously.
Within your posts there is also a fair sprinkling of condescension and amazement that others can't interpret the statistics available similarly to your obvious greater knowledge on the subject.
It's a gift really. Hope you don't fall off that pedestal you've placed yourself? It'll be a long drop butt.
What I've done is said that the balance of evidence points to there being no impact of Brexit on economic indicators.
And I've said that because it's the truth and what the data shows us.
You keep bouncing back and I'll keep saying it, cos it's true, even if you wish it wasn't!
Believe it or not, it is actually good news that dire predictions didn't come true.
And yes, I do find it amazing sometimes how some will try and dance around the evidence before them.