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The arguments for keeping or changing the manager seem to fall into two camps… win rate or entertainment.
Not too many people can argue that Dave Jones sides are considered as entertaining teams.
I wonder what the win/draw/loss rate would be if we were to compare this seasons win/draw/loss rate to the overall Dave Jones league rate.
I don’t know what the outcome would be, or what spin anyone can put on it… but I know which type of football I would like to see.
Unfortunately we dont have players anywhere near the quality of Bothroyd Chopra Whitts Burke McCormack. Throw in Koumas and Bellamy and a young Ramsey as well.
I dont think its anything to do with Dave Jones tactics. Which seemed to be 442 big man little man up top and the players just get on with it.
It depends if you see the results as luck or the gains as a defensively set up team.
If we don’t see the same results next year it’s just leaving us with dire football.
Unless we drastically improve the quality of the team across the pitch, there won’t be a play off pitch for a number of seasons
Put it like this. If we were very near the bottom of the league but playing good football, the feeling amongst most fans would be to win ugly if necessary because we desperately need the points.
This season we have been the archetypal mid-table team, so the emphasis is not on survival or possibly promotion, it is on entertainment. Thus, the quality of football becomes the focal point for many fan's discussions and given what's been put before them they generally feel dissatisfied.
For the survival and future prospects of the club you have to put results before entertainment because who wants to follow a League 2 side who play good football but keep getting beat ?
EricQuote:
Originally Posted by Moodybluebird
Flair players tend to cost money and we’ve had a period of time under and embargo.
For me it’s win at all costs when watching the City. I like entertaining football that’s why I subscribe to most of the sports channels.
Quality seems to be the word cropping up in the replies.
Dave Jones brought in quality over a period of time, possibly in relative terms on a similar budget? I don’t know.
If the current manager was to build on the quality of player coming in? Obviously we would solid players, but what sort of creative player will he bring in… players like Chopra, Bothroyd, Whitts, Burke, McPhale?
I am not arsed if we are promoted to The Premier League or not. I am pushing 40, I would rather be entertained if I am giving up my time, otherwise it makes sense to find other things to do that I can get more enjoyment from.
We could quite easily be the QPR end of the "finished the season safe" camp next year. Only a handful of results need to change. Not going to start taking results away from us but the Ipswich and Southampton are two obvious standout games that 9/10 we don't win but had great moments and walked away with memorable wins. Take the points and league position away for a sec and look at it purely on performances and we have been dire all year long. You don't get away with that over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moodybluebird
The 1 nil win v Birmingham was 50/50
Watford was the bowler goal and absolutely nothing else. We've picked up points we could easily not 9/10 games.
The performances have been consistently bad imo.
I think that it has everything to do with Jones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilts
He chose the players and set the team up (loosely by all accounts).
The football seemed to be entertaining across all of his time at the club, not just when those players that you mention were playing.
We're 15 points clear of the relegation places and who's to say Brum and Huddersfield have not had lucky wins along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dembe
No one is denying the performances have been anything other than bad but you can't keep looking at the league table and deducting us points for undeserved wins. Football is not like that and as they say the table never lies.
I don't believe Bulut is satisfied with the performances either. He's an intelligent guy and one can only hope he has taken on board the criticisms levelled at him and his team and put things right for next season if he gets a contract extension.
Dave Jones:Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSiamIAm
Played 315 games. 132 wins (41.9%), 99 defeats (31.4%). Goals scored 440 (1.40 per game), goals conceded 377 (1.20 per game).
Erol Bulut:
Played 49 games. 21 wins (42.9%), 23 defeats (46.9%). Goals scored 58 (1.18 per game), goals conceded 77 (1.57 per game).
I didn't mention the relegation places, I pointed out we're only a few wins ahead of teams like QPR and how next season we may not pick up those wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moodybluebird
The table doesn't lie, I agree, I also think its unsustainable to play this badly this consistently and hope we will get the points we need next season.
I have the opinion that another season with the same performances and the fans will get on top, the players will slowly start to give up, its worked this year because the league position has helped the players and fans (some) buy into it, it only takes one or 2 results to go the other way and to slip down the table and them same players may not be as enthusiastic about what their being asked to do.
My position on Bulut is what it is, pointless me going on and on about it.
Good work. Bulut doesnt keep that win percentage up for 315 games. Not a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
My conspiracy theory is instead of us winning games, we bore the other team into losing.
Clever. Very clever.
If we play the same way next season I don't see us being as fortunate as we have been this season.
It's not just Bulut there are issues with our entire squad.
FFP, or whatever it is called these days, will almost certainly hamper any kind of rebuild. In addition our squad contains too many and too many old players but we will struggle to shift the squad deadweight. We can only hope many of them are out of contract to give us manoeuvrability in the transfer market.
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Dandruff
I was delighted when Jones was replaced and I think it was a couple of years too late.
If wed employed a tactically better manager and added some bite to the centre of midfield and switched from 442 that core group would I believe been promoted.
However saying that credit has to be given to Jones for the squad he assembled and for clearly getting the absolute best out of Jay Bothroyd.
You’re despise of Dave Jones knows no boundaries Hilts :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilts
It was largely thanks to Dave Jones we had players of that quality. It was largely thanks to Jones we become a club with real aspirations to get in the Premier League.
Yes the Ridler spending money he didn’t really have helped but Jones signed some absolute gems for peanuts, who were then either sold on for good money or become legends of the club.
No one could get a tune out of the talented Jay Bothroyd until Jones got him under his wing and no more words need writing about the great Peter Whittingham and the player he become,largely thanks to the confidence Jones gave him to express himself.
To give Jones no credit for the progression we made as a club and the football we played under him is utterly laughable :hehe:
😂😂😂Quote:
Originally Posted by J R Hartley
See above - I have given him some credit.
I dont despise him but his decisions in the play off final will long live in the memory.😂
We’ve been entertaining at times this year, in only Buluts first season.
We may be more consistent in his second year..
That makes points per game:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Dave Jones entertaining style= 1.52ppg
Erol Bulut pragmatic style = 1.39ppg
When would you say that was?Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueArmy 86
For about 30 minutes against Swansea at homeQuote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman
Theres been small periods of entertainment. Ipswich we started on the front foot home and away and played well. V Ipswich we also played well when behind in the home game.
We were entertaining in periods at the start of the season, which gave me lots of hope. It was refreshing (whilst is lasted!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilts
Leeds, Leicester, Ipswich (all away), the JBs second half at home.
Maybe being pegged back in each of those first 3 games caused Bulut to change his approach as we ended up getting pushed deeper and deeper?
Having watched Hull v Ipswich and seen the Wrexham v Stockport highlights we are definitely getting short changed on entertainment.
My reaction when we signed Jay Bothroyd was “why are we signing that waster?” :facepalm:
My list of games where City played entertaining footballing 23/24.
Leicester A for a spell in the second half.
The first hour or so at Ipswich.
League Cupwin at Birmingham.
The last quarter of Swansea at home.
Huddersfield away for about an hour.
Thought we played well at times in the second half at Stoke.
Plymouth on Boxing Day was an enjoyable game.
Twenty minutes of Ipswich at home.
Parts of Coventry away.
About a quarter of the Southampton home game.
Just four matches out of twenty three at home.
Games where we’ve been boring and/or poor.
QPR home.
Watford home.
Middlesbrough away.
Blackburn away.
West Brom home.
Southampton away.
Millwall home.
Birmingham home.
Hull away.
Sheffield Weds away.
Leicester home.
Leeds home.
Plymouth away.
Watford away.
Preston home.
West Brom away.
Norwich away.
Blackburn home.
Bristol C away.
Huddersfield home.
Most of Ipswich home.
Swansea away.
Sunderland home.
Hull home.
A lot of Birmingham away.
Millwall away.
Thirteen home games and the same number of away games where I’ve thought we were poor and/or boring and I think I’m being generous in not including games like Blackburn in the League Cup, Norwich home, Sheffield Weds in the Cup, Stoke home and yesterday in that list.
There has not been a single game where I’d say we’ve turned in a complete ninety minute performance (Huddersfield away was the closest, but, understandably perhaps, we got sloppy late on) and there’s not been a single game we’ve lost that I’ve thought we were very unlucky not to get anything out of that game.
Also, in nearly all of our home games from September onwards, I’d say we played with just one genuine attacking player. Our so called wingers have been more like defenders most of the time (Ashford was like Ollie Tanner back in the autumn yesterday - more concerned with showing his manager how defensively responsible he was, rather than doing what he’s best at).
I didn't include points per game as the figures included cup ties.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSiamIAm
Good summaryQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueArmy 86
That's the worry.
Good players make good managers.
LIke Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman
Exactly all good players and in a team of good players won numerous titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moodybluebird