Why does Islam fit in so comfortably with modern left wing views?

It’s a massive elephant in the room.
Christianity seems to be fair game to be shit on. Islam however seems to me to get a free pass.

Are people scared to speak out like Salman Rushdie did or is it a comfortable bedfellow right now to destabilise Western Culture…similar to the Western support of the Mujaheddin in the 80’s

Obviously we need to take in the Islamic views on homosexuality and women’s rights (although they seem to be less important now with the trans movement). Let’s not go all strawman talking about abortion in the US or Palestine as they are different topics.

I’m just curious how progressiveness in the West and Islam are such easy bedfellows considering that their views are so diametrically opposite?

This forum still barking mad I see.🤣

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Originally Posted by Hilts

This forum still barking mad I see.🤣

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How is such a view mad?

Ignoring what Islam really is, is mad.
Particularly when its ethos is so contrary to progressiveness.

If you disagree with this, tell me why rather than saying it’s mad.
It would be nice to get back to a time where we could have intellectual debates and either agree to disagree…or in this instance, I could maybe cede my point and acknowledge that I am wrong and ultimately change my view.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

How is such a view mad?

Ignoring what Islam really is, is mad.
Particularly when its ethos is so contrary to progressiveness.

If you disagree with this, tell me why rather than saying it’s mad.
It would be nice to get back to a time where we could have intellectual debates and either agree to disagree…or in this instance, I could maybe cede my point and acknowledge that I am wrong and ultimately change my view.

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I think all religion is absolutely crazy and the cause of almost all conflict worldwide

Religious Wars
Barbaric Laws
Bloodshed worldwide over what's left of his myth

Dead Kennedys




The Jewish state of Israel is proving over the last few days that it's version of the truth and it's God is better than Islam

Of course people will say this is about territory but its not , it's about God, faith and who said what in silly old books thousands of years old

The point I am making I suppose is a plague on all of them !

I love the DK’s

Too Drunk To F**k, Nazi Punks F**k Off.
I actually think that California Uber Alles is incredibly pertinent now.

My point being though is that not all religions are treated equally by many and that Islam sits so freely amongst those of with a progressive view.

Does it come from the ubiquitous and horrendous P*ki bashing views of pricks in the 70’s and 80’s that gives it a free pass?

You can have the utmost disdain about religion full stop, but Islam gets does seem to me to get free press when it is demonstrably more dangerous and repressive than other mainstream religions (cults excluded of course).

Christopher Hitchens spoke about it a lot before he died…there again he supported Bush Jr’s war against Iraq.

I consider myself to a bit of a rubbish Christian that doesn’t go to church and doesn’t know that much about the Bible.
I believe in live and let live and no man made scripture will make me think any different.

Again, to me Islam seems to me to promote incredibly dogmatic and highly regressive views, yet it tends to sit more comfortably with those with progressive views than Christianity does.

Hence me asking really, are people scared to call it out or is it a tool to be used in a fight against the west by Post Modernists?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I love the DK’s

Too Drunk To F**k, Nazi Punks F**k Off.
I actually think that California Uber Alles is incredibly pertinent now.

My point being though is that not all religions are treated equally by many and that Islam sits so freely amongst those of with a progressive view.

Does it come from the ubiquitous and horrendous P*ki bashing views of pricks in the 70’s and 80’s that gives it a free pass?

You can have the utmost disdain about religion full stop, but Islam gets does seem to me to get free press when it is demonstrably more dangerous and repressive than other mainstream religions (cults excluded of course).

Christopher Hitchens spoke about it a lot before he died…there again he supported Bush Jr’s war against Iraq.

I consider myself to a bit of a rubbish Christian that doesn’t go to church and doesn’t know that much about the Bible.
I believe in live and let live and no man made scripture will make me think any different.

Again, to me Islam seems to me to promote incredibly dogmatic and highly regressive views, yet it tends to sit more comfortably with those with progressive views than Christianity does.

Hence me asking really, are people scared to call it out or is it a tool to be used in a fight against the west by Post Modernists?

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Have you watched Hitchens debate *Lennox, an individual who *has read the Bible and has comfortably dealt with the biggest names in the atheistic realm, including Dawkins. >>

10 Minutes of Hitchens v Lennox

Criticism of Christianity may appear more socially acceptable due to its dominant role in Western history, while Islam can be more cautiously addressed, partly due to fear of backlash or accusations of Islamophobia.

The Rushdie example highlights the risks of critiquing Islam, as does the hesitation in addressing Islamic views on women's rights and LGBTQ+ issues.

The uneasy alliance between progressive values and Islamic perspectives might stem from a broader desire to promote multiculturalism and combat perceived Western imperialism, even if it involves contradictions.

I do understand the need for this to be questioned though. I think the 'another' elephant in the room is the promotion of Zionism and the notion that any critique is antisemitic. The support of Israel by the UK and US will play a huge part in this complex situation. It's worth noting that many Christians are afraid of speaking out against Israel.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...zas-christians

I just think left leaning people generally tend to be a bit more liberal minded.

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Originally Posted by stevo

I just think left leaning people generally tend to be a bit more liberal minded.

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Not entirely sure that's true, but for the same of argument, if it is, doesn't that make it all the more confusing? Because the prevailing interpretation of Islam isnt a particularly liberal version is it?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Not entirely sure that's true, but for the same of argument, if it is, doesn't that make it all the more confusing? Because the prevailing interpretation of Islam isnt a particularly liberal version is it?

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What about the extreme expansionist Israeli regime based on Judaism that's being pushed in the middle east at the moment ?

The boot is firmly on one foot over there at the moment and the majority of bloodshed is not being carried out in the name of Islam

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Criticism of Christianity may appear more socially acceptable due to its dominant role in Western history, while Islam can be more cautiously addressed, partly due to fear of backlash or accusations of Islamophobia.

The Rushdie example highlights the risks of critiquing Islam, as does the hesitation in addressing Islamic views on women's rights and LGBTQ+ issues.

The uneasy alliance between progressive values and Islamic perspectives might stem from a broader desire to promote multiculturalism and combat perceived Western imperialism, even if it involves contradictions.

I do understand the need for this to be questioned though. I think the 'another' elephant in the room is the promotion of Zionism and the notion that any critique is antisemitic. The support of Israel by the UK and US will play a huge part in this complex situation. It's worth noting that many Christians are afraid of speaking out against Israel.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...zas-christians

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Thanks for such a well considered response and for the link.
I appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by stevo

I just think left leaning people generally tend to be a bit more liberal minded.

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Yet Islam is quite illiberal in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

Yet Islam is quite illiberal in my opinion.

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And the Jewish faith propping up Israel ?

More bombing this evening by Netanyahu

I don’t think the premise of the thread is accurate at all.

From my personal experience and the limited stuff I see on MSM, social media and from friends who share my basic (left wing) view if life, there is no comfortable fit with Islam. Very little with the various strands of Christianity either. Or Judaism, or Hinduism, or even Buddhism.

There are well meaning followers of all those faiths or beliefs, and some very brave and progressive representatives (especially many advocates for peace and some form of justice, and the liberation theology heroes and heroines from Latin America) but they all have belief systems that are at odds with my understanding of ‘left wing views’.

Many are not well meaning. They are oppressive, intolerant and violent. That includes representatives of all the Abrahamic faiths (focussed on Israel/Palestine and the wider region), the Hindu nationalist movement that echoes fascism under Modi and the warped Buddhism of the Myanmar junta and its genocidal oppression of the Muslim minority. Secular ruling castes like that in China can be equally oppressive.

There is sometimes an outbreak of ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ which I think George Galloway has been guilty of - but that is not common in my experience on the left. Many on the left have defended victims of Islamophobia as they have of antisemitism or other racist attacks. Many on the left have Muslim and Christian and Jewish friends (I have - and a Buddhist brother). Many have marched and organised with practicing Muslims to show solidarity with victims of Israeli, American, German and British bombs.

That doesn’t mean embracing Islam. It might mean trying to understand the origins and history of the faith more - and not rely on the actions or representations of the most reactionary representatives. Islamic religious tolerance and scientific advances were in stark contrast to medieval Catholic thinking, but the modern Iranian regime is more brutal, backward and intolerant than most of ‘the West’. Not all though - as evidenced by the words and actions of some extreme Christians in the USA and west Africa, and the fascistic elements of the Netanyahu coalition in Israel.

Most people on the left are defenders of women’s rights, gay rights and labour rights. Where a religion or governing ideology clashes with those there is no comfortable fit. In my experience anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think all religion is absolutely crazy and the cause of almost all conflict worldwide

Religious Wars
Barbaric Laws
Bloodshed worldwide over what's left of his myth

Dead Kennedys




The Jewish state of Israel is proving over the last few days that it's version of the truth and it's God is better than Islam

Of course people will say this is about territory but its not , it's about God, faith and who said what in silly old books thousands of years old

The point I am making I suppose is a plague on all of them !

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They've been poking the bear, what do they expect?

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Originally Posted by stevo

I just think left leaning people generally tend to be a bit more liberal minded.

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Well, it's been proven that people with higher IQs are more likely to be left wing.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I don’t think the premise of the thread is accurate at all.

From my personal experience and the limited stuff I see on MSM, social media and from friends who share my basic (left wing) view if life, there is no comfortable fit with Islam. Very little with the various strands of Christianity either. Or Judaism, or Hinduism, or even Buddhism.

There are well meaning followers of all those faiths or beliefs, and some very brave and progressive representatives (especially many advocates for peace and some form of justice, and the liberation theology heroes and heroines from Latin America) but they all have belief systems that are at odds with my understanding of ‘left wing views’.

Many are not well meaning. They are oppressive, intolerant and violent. That includes representatives of all the Abrahamic faiths (focussed on Israel/Palestine and the wider region), the Hindu nationalist movement that echoes fascism under Modi and the warped Buddhism of the Myanmar junta and its genocidal oppression of the Muslim minority. Secular ruling castes like that in China can be equally oppressive.

There is sometimes an outbreak of ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ which I think George Galloway has been guilty of - but that is not common in my experience on the left. Many on the left have defended victims of Islamophobia as they have of antisemitism or other racist attacks. Many on the left have Muslim and Christian and Jewish friends (I have - and a Buddhist brother). Many have marched and organised with practicing Muslims to show solidarity with victims of Israeli, American, German and British bombs.

That doesn’t mean embracing Islam. It might mean trying to understand the origins and history of the faith more - and not rely on the actions or representations of the most reactionary representatives. Islamic religious tolerance and scientific advances were in stark contrast to medieval Catholic thinking, but the modern Iranian regime is more brutal, backward and intolerant than most of ‘the West’. Not all though - as evidenced by the words and actions of some extreme Christians in the USA and west Africa, and the fascistic elements of the Netanyahu coalition in Israel.

Most people on the left are defenders of women’s rights, gay rights and labour rights. Where a religion or governing ideology clashes with those there is no comfortable fit. In my experience anyway.

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This times ten.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Well, it's been proven that people with higher IQs are more likely to be left wing.

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They’re also less likely to conflate Muslims with terrorists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I don’t think the premise of the thread is accurate at all.

From my personal experience and the limited stuff I see on MSM, social media and from friends who share my basic (left wing) view if life, there is no comfortable fit with Islam. Very little with the various strands of Christianity either. Or Judaism, or Hinduism, or even Buddhism.

There are well meaning followers of all those faiths or beliefs, and some very brave and progressive representatives (especially many advocates for peace and some form of justice, and the liberation theology heroes and heroines from Latin America) but they all have belief systems that are at odds with my understanding of ‘left wing views’.

Many are not well meaning. They are oppressive, intolerant and violent. That includes representatives of all the Abrahamic faiths (focussed on Israel/Palestine and the wider region), the Hindu nationalist movement that echoes fascism under Modi and the warped Buddhism of the Myanmar junta and its genocidal oppression of the Muslim minority. Secular ruling castes like that in China can be equally oppressive.

There is sometimes an outbreak of ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ which I think George Galloway has been guilty of - but that is not common in my experience on the left. Many on the left have defended victims of Islamophobia as they have of antisemitism or other racist attacks. Many on the left have Muslim and Christian and Jewish friends (I have - and a Buddhist brother). Many have marched and organised with practicing Muslims to show solidarity with victims of Israeli, American, German and British bombs.

That doesn’t mean embracing Islam. It might mean trying to understand the origins and history of the faith more - and not rely on the actions or representations of the most reactionary representatives. Islamic religious tolerance and scientific advances were in stark contrast to medieval Catholic thinking, but the modern Iranian regime is more brutal, backward and intolerant than most of ‘the West’. Not all though - as evidenced by the words and actions of some extreme Christians in the USA and west Africa, and the fascistic elements of the Netanyahu coalition in Israel.

Most people on the left are defenders of women’s rights, gay rights and labour rights. Where a religion or governing ideology clashes with those there is no comfortable fit. In my experience anyway.

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I think the last sentence cuts across the political spectrum tbh, although they certainly are things that the left has often rightly championed.

But that does go far far quieter if when the oppressor of gay, women's or labour rights come from the Muslim faith, no?

Remember the Muslim protests in Birmingham against LGBT teaching in schools a few years back? There was nothing like the condimentation that there would have been if it was 'right wing christians' for example.

It is a bit of an elephant in the room in my opinion, but political ideologies are always coalitions of opinions with loads of contradictions, but I would say this is one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Criticism of Christianity may appear more socially acceptable due to its dominant role in Western history, while Islam can be more cautiously addressed, partly due to fear of backlash or accusations of Islamophobia.

The Rushdie example highlights the risks of critiquing Islam, as does the hesitation in addressing Islamic views on women's rights and LGBTQ+ issues.

The uneasy alliance between progressive values and Islamic perspectives might stem from a broader desire to promote multiculturalism and combat perceived Western imperialism, even if it involves contradictions.

I do understand the need for this to be questioned though. I think the 'another' elephant in the room is the promotion of Zionism and the notion that any critique is antisemitic. The support of Israel by the UK and US will play a huge part in this complex situation. It's worth noting that many Christians are afraid of speaking out against Israel.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...zas-christians

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Interesting that we never hear charges of Christophobia being brought.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Well, it's been proven that people with higher IQs are more likely to be left wing.

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And not religious

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think the last sentence cuts across the political spectrum tbh, although they certainly are things that the left has often rightly championed.

But that does go far far quieter if when the oppressor of gay, women's or labour rights come from the Muslim faith, no?

Remember the Muslim protests in Birmingham against LGBT teaching in schools a few years back? There was nothing like the condimentation that there would have been if it was 'right wing christians' for example.

It is a bit of an elephant in the room in my opinion, but political ideologies are always coalitions of opinions with loads of contradictions, but I would say this is one.

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There was loads of support for the school and the teacher involved in that lgbt protest and plenty of Muslim parents backed the school and the teacher 🙄

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Interesting that we never hear charges of Christophobia being brought.

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There are lots of Christians who complain they are discriminated against

Often when they oppose abortion or quite ridiculously also oppose women in the priesthood

I think islamaphobia is a stupid term as is christophobia in fact it's all stupid

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

There are lots of Christians who complain they are discriminated against

Often when they oppose abortion or quite ridiculously also oppose women in the priesthood

I think islamaphobia is a stupid term as is christophobia in fact it's all stupid

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Incorrect, as real Christians already know they will always get opposition from religious individuals and agnostics, so why would they complain?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Well, it's been proven that people with higher IQs are more likely to be left wing.

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:hehe: Think they are maybe :hehe:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

:hehe: Think they are maybe :hehe:

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You're thinking is correct 👍

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Incorrect, as real Christians already know they will always get opposition from religious individuals and agnostics, so why would they complain?

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There is no such thing as a real Christian in the same way there is no such thing as a real Muslim

It's all a bag of nonsense

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

There is no such thing as a real Christian in the same way there is no such thing as a real Muslim

It's all a bag of nonsense

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Do you really have to come on here and say that for the 1000th time in 20 years? This was an attempt to have a serious debate on a good question.
I think the OP is dead right. Maybe it’s because the Left know full well that the Right are very anti Muslim and open to abuse from the Brexit/Reform idiots, and try to balance it up but their beliefs are appalling.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Well, it's been proven that people with higher IQs are more likely to be left wing.

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Is it really that simple Eric?

Surely it is far more nuanced than that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Blue

Do you really have to come on here and say that for the 1000th time in 20 years? This was an attempt to have a serious debate on a good question.
I think the OP is dead right. Maybe it’s because the Left know full well that the Right are very anti Muslim and open to abuse from the Brexit/Reform idiots, and try to balance it up but their beliefs are appalling.

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You need to direct your venom at the daft religious theory pop brought up by the person I responded to in regard to what a true Christian etc is

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Is it really that simple Eric?

Surely it is far more nuanced than that?

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It really is that simple I'm afraid and education will be the undoing of the Right Wing.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

It really is that simple I'm afraid and education will be the undoing of the Right Wing.

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No doubt you will decry my intelligence or lack of knowledge as you have done in the past.

But it really is not that simple.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

No doubt you will decry my intelligence or lack of knowledge as you have done in the past.

But it really is not that simple.

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I'm not decrying anything, I'm just stating a statistical fact and of course the relevant data refers to a large sample size and not just individual cases.Naturally I understand its an uncomfortable fact for some people to acknowledge and it's only human nature to try to dismiss it.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Interesting that we never hear charges of Christophobia being brought.

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IÂ’m not sure if you read the piece in The New Yorker but itÂ’s quite damning towards the way Israel is treating non Jewish groups. There has been plenty of intolerance towards Christians. The extremes of fundamentalism on all sides is a major problem. Intolerance and segregation is the sure way to lead to aggression. Everyone should be advocating peace and diplomacy whatever belief system someone chooses to follow.

My gay and queer friends donÂ’t support Islamic doctrine targeting sexuality. They do however understand and empathise with aggressive and isolating tactics towards an oppressed people. This is where the support lies. ItÂ’s not a question of ignoring the intolerance and discriminatory doctrines of Islam. Christian anti gay stances are also a huge problem and exist in many areas of the US.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Interesting that we never hear charges of Christophobia being brought.

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Christianity has been associated with the UK State for centuries and the Head of State is also Head of the Church of England (both roles being honoured in the National Anthem). Most of us were indoctrinated at school every day with that brand of Abrahamism and most people were baptised, christened and had religious funerals.
Clergymen have sat n the House of Lords courtesy of their Christianity and it was the religious default in this country.
The cultural backcloth is totally different to Islam.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Christianity has been associated with the UK State for centuries and the Head of State is also Head of the Church of England (both roles being honoured in the National Anthem). Most of us were indoctrinated at school every day with that brand of Abrahamism and most people were baptised, christened and had religious funerals.
Clergymen have sat n the House of Lords courtesy of their Christianity and it was the religious default in this country.
The cultural backcloth is totally different to Islam.

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Good post TBG.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Interesting that we never hear charges of Christophobia being brought.

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Gofer, I think the Paramount Rule should always be adhered to and borne in mind at all times.

It states: All religions should be acknowledged and allowed to be freely expressed and adhered to within the constraints of humanistic sentiments. Everyone should be free to believe whatever they wish so far as it doesn't impact everyone else's desire to reject the same.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I'm not decrying anything, I'm just stating a statistical fact and of course the relevant data refers to a large sample size and not just individual cases.Naturally I understand its an uncomfortable fact for some people to acknowledge and it's only human nature to try to dismiss it.

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Which relevant data and sample size do you refer to?

And where would you place those with centrist views in any comparison?

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Which relevant data and sample size do you refer to?

And where would you place those with centrist views in any comparison?

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Good question but I can't be arsed to trawl through the web. If it's causing you a lack of sleep don't believe it. It's as simple as that. Greedy right wingers have adopted that strategy for centuries. Centralists are just people who are too arthritic to get off the damned fence!

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Good question but I can't be arsed to trawl through the web. If it's causing you a lack of sleep don't believe it. It's as simple as that. Greedy right wingers have adopted that strategy for centuries. Centralists are just people who are too arthritic to get off the damned fence!

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It is not causing me any lack of sleep thank you(strange comment?)

I was not expecting you to trawl through the net but you seemed to have knowledge of a survey or survey' which backed up your opinion.

Obviously not,though I am not saying that such survey's do not exist although the ones I have seen are not so cut and dried as you suggest.

Your last comment is a bit too dismissive of Centralists who are often proved right