New update from the Trust after Vincent Tan's statement

Vincent's statement:

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...Tan-29-04-2025

Club Statement:

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...=1#post5588479

Trust response 30/04/2025

Following on from our statement released on Sunday we formally wrote to the Club requesting that a meeting be organised for the Club owner Tan Sri Vincent Tan to meet with Fans Groups to discuss the current failings in the Club that lead us to relegation.

Prior to a response to our email two statements were released by the Club, one a Club Statement and then a personal message from Tan Sri Vincent Tan both referencing the Cardiff City Supporters Trust Statement.

In terms of the Club Statement we note that a review of the overall structures and practices, culminating in the appointment of a new permanent manager and management team, is taking place.

As referred to in our Statement there is a lack of football expertise at Board Level. Consequently, we would want to be assured that people with football expertise are being engaged to advise about that restructuring.

In respect of the personal message from the owner it is encouraging to note that the owner stated that he would “make every effort to be in Cardiff at the next opportunity” but the lack of even a general indication of when is disappointing. It definitely needs to be sooner rather than later. Confirmation of his willingness to meet all Fans Groups would also be useful.

It is going to be a very important Summer if the promised restructure is to take place. The owner must hear at first hand the views of fans about a myriad of concerns. Communication between the fans and the owner is absolutely crucial and it should be ongoing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Morris

Vincent's statement:

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...Tan-29-04-2025

Club Statement:

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...=1#post5588479

Trust response 30/04/2025

Following on from our statement released on Sunday we formally wrote to the Club requesting that a meeting be organised for the Club owner Tan Sri Vincent Tan to meet with Fans Groups to discuss the current failings in the Club that lead us to relegation.

Prior to a response to our email two statements were released by the Club, one a Club Statement and then a personal message from Tan Sri Vincent Tan both referencing the Cardiff City Supporters Trust Statement.

In terms of the Club Statement we note that a review of the overall structures and practices, culminating in the appointment of a new permanent manager and management team, is taking place.

As referred to in our Statement there is a lack of football expertise at Board Level. Consequently, we would want to be assured that people with football expertise are being engaged to advise about that restructuring.

In respect of the personal message from the owner it is encouraging to note that the owner stated that he would “make every effort to be in Cardiff at the next opportunity” but the lack of even a general indication of when is disappointing. It definitely needs to be sooner rather than later. Confirmation of his willingness to meet all Fans Groups would also be useful.

It is going to be a very important Summer if the promised restructure is to take place. The owner must hear at first hand the views of fans about a myriad of concerns. Communication between the fans and the owner is absolutely crucial and it should be ongoing.

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Good to see them pointing out the need for people with "football expertise" to be involved in this so called review because yesterday's statements from the club and the owner read like the reviwe would be carried out by Messrs Tan, Dalman and Choo with perhaps a bit of help from Steve Borley and thoee mysterious Board members with far eastern sounding names that no one has seen and/or met before.

Let's not forget the stories we heard last autumn about experienced football people being asked to recommend potential managers to take over from Erol Bulut while Omer Riza was doing his three month stint as caretaker boss. The word was that potential replacements picked out by the ex pros were too boring and uninspiring for Tan, Dalman and Choo as they provided further proof, if any were needed, that they really are a class apart from others at the helm of Championship clubs - maybe "class" is not the right word to use there, but you know what I mean :hehe:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Good to see them pointing out the need for people with "football expertise" to be involved in this so called review because yesterday's statements from the club and the owner read like the reviwe would be carried out by Messrs Tan, Dalman and Choo with perhaps a bit of help from Steve Borley and thoee mysterious Board members with far eastern sounding names that no one has seen and/or met before.

Let's not forget the stories we heard last autumn about experienced football people being asked to recommend potential managers to take over from Erol Bulut while Omer Riza was doing his three month stint as caretaker boss. The word was that potential replacements picked out by the ex pros were too boring and uninspiring for Tan, Dalman and Choo as they provided further proof, if any were needed, that they really are a class apart from others at the helm of Championship clubs - maybe "class" is not the right word to use there, but you know what I mean :hehe:

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What was the bit that borley told the FAB Ken choo hadn't said? Was it about using advisors?

Was definitely something about the new manager appointment and borley was adamant choo hadn't said something everyone else was adamant he had.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

What was the bit that borley told the FAB Ken choo hadn't said? Was it about using advisors?

Was definitely something about the new manager appointment and borley was adamant choo hadn't said something everyone else was adamant he had.

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Just found it from 9th December minutes


"7 Corporate governance

FAB What are the processes for hiring a new manager?
Club No fixed process.
FAB Is there a consistent criterion applied to the search for candidates.
Club, No
FAB How many consultants both individuals and agencies are involved?
Club, no specific consultants, just various agencies trying to get the club to appoint their
managers.
FAB Are they employed/engaged with consistently by the club?
Club, no
FAB Are these consultants impartial in terms of recommendations or are there existing
links to agents?
Club Any consultants would have links to agents.
FAB Ken Choo mentioned 'The three pillars" of Cardiff City when identifying suitable
managerial candidates? What are they and how do they link to the work Gavin
Chesterfield is doing with the academy?
Club Progression of youth, attractive playing style & a balance of age and experience
throughout the squad. Principles of play remain consistent throughout formations,
shapes and styles.
FAB How will the club prepare for the January transfer window without a full-time
manager and coaching team in place?
Club Plans are already underway with the interim Manager now appointed.
FAB also stressed the importance of long term plan, i.e hiring first team manager to link
in with recruitment, playing style and academy.
FAB Will the lack of stability impact potential player impact to join CCFC?
Club Hopefully not, but we do understand players like stability and now we have
appointed the full-time manager it will make things clearer to players.
MW At previous meeting the CEO said we did use ex managers as consultants and
mentioned a very large agency that were also used as consultants, so what is the case?
PJ /SB Neither were present when Ken said this so can’t comment on that.
The FAB request this be clarified with Ken.
KJ Ken said it was two ex-managers helping the club with appointing a new manager, so
it’s confusing.
VA could you get back to the FAB to clarify the process?
SB Yes, no problem. What I can say is that every time there is a managerial vacancy at
the club many agents put names forward and you get an extensive list that is easily
whittled down to just a few suitable candidates.
MW how do the directors know what type of manager would appeal to the owner, we
often see different types of characters and no consistency in the appointments.?
SB The owner gets very frustrated employing a manager on a substantial wage, probably
as high as the top Championship clubs and then parts company with them whilst still
having to pay up their contract so there would be a reluctance to replace the high earner
the very next day on a similar type of package and then possibly get rid of them again.
The FAB asked that if there is no certain criterion applied when looking at potential
managers, then how do we expect to appoint a manager that will implement the desired
“attractive playing style”? CLUB: responded that was considered at the point of reviewing the applicants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Just found it from 9th December minutes


"7 Corporate governance

FAB What are the processes for hiring a new manager?
Club No fixed process.
FAB Is there a consistent criterion applied to the search for candidates.
Club, No
FAB How many consultants both individuals and agencies are involved?
Club, no specific consultants, just various agencies trying to get the club to appoint their
managers.
FAB Are they employed/engaged with consistently by the club?
Club, no
FAB Are these consultants impartial in terms of recommendations or are there existing
links to agents?
Club Any consultants would have links to agents.
FAB Ken Choo mentioned 'The three pillars" of Cardiff City when identifying suitable
managerial candidates? What are they and how do they link to the work Gavin
Chesterfield is doing with the academy?
Club Progression of youth, attractive playing style & a balance of age and experience
throughout the squad. Principles of play remain consistent throughout formations,
shapes and styles.
FAB How will the club prepare for the January transfer window without a full-time
manager and coaching team in place?
Club Plans are already underway with the interim Manager now appointed.
FAB also stressed the importance of long term plan, i.e hiring first team manager to link
in with recruitment, playing style and academy.
FAB Will the lack of stability impact potential player impact to join CCFC?
Club Hopefully not, but we do understand players like stability and now we have
appointed the full-time manager it will make things clearer to players.
MW At previous meeting the CEO said we did use ex managers as consultants and
mentioned a very large agency that were also used as consultants, so what is the case?
PJ /SB Neither were present when Ken said this so can’t comment on that.
The FAB request this be clarified with Ken.
KJ Ken said it was two ex-managers helping the club with appointing a new manager, so
it’s confusing.
VA could you get back to the FAB to clarify the process?
SB Yes, no problem. What I can say is that every time there is a managerial vacancy at
the club many agents put names forward and you get an extensive list that is easily
whittled down to just a few suitable candidates.
MW how do the directors know what type of manager would appeal to the owner, we
often see different types of characters and no consistency in the appointments.?
SB The owner gets very frustrated employing a manager on a substantial wage, probably
as high as the top Championship clubs and then parts company with them whilst still
having to pay up their contract so there would be a reluctance to replace the high earner
the very next day on a similar type of package and then possibly get rid of them again.
The FAB asked that if there is no certain criterion applied when looking at potential
managers, then how do we expect to appoint a manager that will implement the desired
“attractive playing style”? CLUB: responded that was considered at the point of reviewing the applicants.

---

Steve borley said "no problem" to clarifying what Ken choo said. Did he provide an answer after?

So Ken choo said the club was using ex managers to help with a search. Everyone else even those on the actual board said that absolutely was not the case and any agents involved would have direct links to clients.

And we wonder why we are in a mess?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Steve borley said "no problem" to clarifying what Ken choo said. Did he provide an answer after?

So Ken choo said the club was using ex managers to help with a search. Everyone else even those on the actual board said that absolutely was not the case and any agents involved would have direct links to clients.

And we wonder why we are in a mess?!

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It all makes a "a thorough period of review across several structures and practices" involving "the Owner, Board, Executive Management and stakeholders" a bit pointless really if the left hand doesn't know what the right one is doing.

The names of Russell Slade and Mick McCarthy were mentioned as possibilities for the former managers who had been consulted as I remember it - I can definitely believe that the first named was involved, not sure about the second one though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Good to see them pointing out the need for people with "football expertise" to be involved in this so called review because yesterday's statements from the club and the owner read like the reviwe would be carried out by Messrs Tan, Dalman and Choo with perhaps a bit of help from Steve Borley and thoee mysterious Board members with far eastern sounding names that no one has seen and/or met before.

Let's not forget the stories we heard last autumn about experienced football people being asked to recommend potential managers to take over from Erol Bulut while Omer Riza was doing his three month stint as caretaker boss. The word was that potential replacements picked out by the ex pros were too boring and uninspiring for Tan, Dalman and Choo as they provided further proof, if any were needed, that they really are a class apart from others at the helm of Championship clubs - maybe "class" is not the right word to use there, but you know what I mean :hehe:

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2 points there

didn't we reach out to Glen Roeder for 'football expertise ' around the Slade era or my mind playing tricks ?

mysterious board members - remember the name Marco Caramella . Is he still involved ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

2 points there

didn't we reach out to Glen Roeder for 'football expertise ' around the Slade era or my mind playing tricks ?

mysterious board members - remember the name Marco Caramella . Is he still involved ?

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Yes, you’re talking a few years ago with Glenn Roeder mind, might have been for Russell Slade’s appointment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It all makes a "a thorough period of review across several structures and practices" involving "the Owner, Board, Executive Management and stakeholders" a bit pointless really if the left hand doesn't know what the right one is doing.

The names of Russell Slade and Mick McCarthy were mentioned as possibilities for the former managers who had been consulted as I remember it - I can definitely believe that the first named was involved, not sure about the second one though.

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I don't think Ken specified they were ex cardiff managers did he?

I think what borley said is more likely though. The club sat back and awaited for agents to contact them and make the first move. Some were ruled out. Some names were passed on but none were that inspiring. In fairness if that's your approach- and borley says above it is- then it makes me less surprised they thought none of them are worth bothering with.

This paragraph "What I can say is that every time there is a managerial vacancy at
the club many agents put names forward and you get an extensive list that is easily
whittled down to just a few suitable candidates."

Confirms its the agents who make the first move. It's obviously the same with signing players looking at how high our agents fees are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

2 points there

“…remember the name Marco Caramella . Is he still involved ?

---

More likely Giovanni Malacrino. He knows f all about football

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

I don't think Ken specified they were ex cardiff managers did he?



Confirms its the agents who make the first move. It's obviously the same with signing players looking at how high our agents fees are.

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I think 100% this is the case. We are just so pathetically passive and reactive with everything. We should have a constant list of names of players, coaches, managers in case any are poaches, sold, sacked or leave.

That's why you have a sporting director or a director of football. They are responsible for all that planning and continuity. For example Tan says he want to play attacking football with a focus on bringing youth players in - the DoF has a list of managers and coaches who have a track record of that and a list of player targets that compliment that style. That way when we sack a manager every few months - we've still got a plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhyllisStant

I think 100% this is the case. We are just so pathetically passive and reactive with everything. We should have a constant list of names of players, coaches, managers in case any are poaches, sold, sacked or leave.

That's why you have a sporting director or a director of football. They are responsible for all that planning and continuity. For example Tan says he want to play attacking football with a focus on bringing youth players in - the DoF has a list of managers and coaches who have a track record of that and a list of player targets that compliment that style. That way when we sack a manager every few months - we've still got a plan.

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Yes I was surprised borleys comments weren't really picked up on or discussed much.

An admittance that the process is the club get contacted by agents then look at the names from there.

Yet people still convince themselves or wonder if we will go after xyz. We aren't going after anyone!! People have to come to us.

We must be an agents absolute dream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

We must be an agents absolute dream.

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Hardly. How many of our recent managers will have been appointed as a result of contact by agents?

Russell Slade
Paul Trollope
Neil Warnock
Neil Harris
Mick McCarthy
Steve Morison
Mark Hudson
Sabri Lamouchi
Erol Bulut
Omer Riza

How many of those were agent-led appointments?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Hardly. How many of our recent managers will have been appointed as a result of contact by agents?

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In respect of players also. Did you see we spent millions on agents fees for players last season?

I think it's the same agent led approach to sign managers and players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

In respect of players also. Did you see we spent millions on agents fees for players last season?

I think it's the same agent led approach to sign managers and players.

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I don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Russell Slade
Paul Trollope
Neil Warnock
Neil Harris
Mick McCarthy
Steve Morison
Mark Hudson
Sabri Lamouchi
Erol Bulut
Omer Riza

How many of those were agent-led appointments?

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I'd guess all the ones not at the club already. Obviously the ones at the club weren't directly.

But they may have become them by virtue of the club literally not bothering to try and appoint anyone else so they just got left in charge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I don't.

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Well borley said what he said above.

Either he doesn't know the clubs process or choo doesn't.

It's absolutely clear one of them doesn't know.

I wonder if they've clarified to the FAB (as borley promised he would) who was right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Well borley said what he said above.

Either he doesn't know the clubs process or choo doesn't.

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You said: "I think it's the same agent led approach to sign managers and players."

I said I don't. I reckon our super-duper recruitment team are largely responsible for the players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Well borley said what he said above.

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You seem to be fixated on this:

"What I can say is that every time there is a managerial vacancy at the club many agents put names forward and you get an extensive list that is easily whittled down to just a few suitable candidates." (Steve Borley)

I think you're misinterpreting what Borley is saying. Regardless of who the club is, I reckon it's probable that a raft of agents contact them as soon as they sack a manager and put forward the names of their clients. That's their job. It doesn't mean to say that's the only avenue the club has for appointing managers. It clearly isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You seem to be fixated on this:

"What I can say is that every time there is a managerial vacancy at the club many agents put names forward and you get an extensive list that is easily whittled down to just a few suitable candidates." (Steve Borley)

I think you're misinterpreting what Borley is saying. Regardless of who the club is, I reckon it's probable that a raft of agents contact them as soon as they sack a manager and put forward the names of their clients. That's their job. It doesn't mean to say that's the only avenue the club has for appointing managers. It clearly isn't.

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Well no. The other avenue is to leave the number 2 or U23 coach in charge........ :wink:

And borley was saying it in response to Ken choo saying the club have commissioned ex managers/agents/whoever to go and find the club a new manager. Borley said the club didn't do that.

They can't both be right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

And borley was saying it in response to Ken choo saying the club have commissioned ex managers/agents/whoever to go and find the club a new manager. Borley said the club didn't do that.

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No he didn't.

According to the minutes: "Neither PJ or SB were present when Ken said this so can’t comment on that."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

No he didn't.

According to the minutes: "Neither PJ or SB were present when Ken said this so can’t comment on that."

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And then goes on to say what the process is. Which isn't the one ken told fans it was.

Surely PJ or SB would have been aware had the club commissioned 2 ex managers or whatever Ken said to go and find someone? What does it matter if they were there or not when ken said it as surely theyd know anyway? Maybe they weren't aware though and Ken commissioned them and then forgot that he had?

Anyway borley promised to clarify for the FAB and it was nearly 5 months ago now so I am sure he has by now?

Does anyone from the FAB use the MB to clarify?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

And then goes on to say what the process is.

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No he didn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

No he didn't.

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OK borley went on to explain what a part of the recruitment process is?

But the one he chose to highlight was contradictory to what ken said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

OK borley went on to explain what a part of the recruitment process is?

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No he didn't. He merely explained something that happens when the club has a managerial vacancy - it gets contacted by a lot of agents, who put their clients forward. He didn't say a manager is appointed based on those nominations.

The very first element of what you quoted reads as follows:

FAB: What are the processes for hiring a new manager?

Club: No fixed process.

FAB: Is there a consistent criterion applied to the search for candidates?

Club: No.

I don't think that's especially difficult to understand, but it appears I might be wrong...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

No he didn't. He merely explained something that happens when the club has a managerial vacancy - it gets contacted by a lot of agents, who put their clients forward. He didn't say a manager is appointed based on those nominations.

The very first element of what you quoted reads as follows:

FAB: What are the processes for hiring a new manager?

Club: No fixed process.

FAB: Is there a consistent criterion applied to the search for candidates?

Club: No.

I don't think that's especially difficult to understand, but it appears I might be wrong...

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Can you really not see any contradiction below considering borley said any contact with agents is initiated by them? Borley could as he promised to clarify. I'm just wondering if he ever did.

"MW At previous meeting the CEO said we did use ex managers as consultants and
mentioned a very large agency that were also used as consultants, so what is the case?
PJ /SB Neither were present when Ken said this so can’t comment on that.
The FAB request this be clarified with Ken.
KJ Ken said it was two ex-managers helping the club with appointing a new manager, so
it’s confusing.
VA could you get back to the FAB to clarify the process?
SB Yes, no problem"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Can you really not see any contradiction below considering Borley said any contact with agents is initiated by them?

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He didn't say that.

I'm going to have a lie down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

He didn't say that.

I'm going to have a lie down.

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Ok everyone at the meeting was confused.

Keith even said to Borley "it's very confusing" (although im sure you will try and find an issue with that quote also).

Vince specifically asked him to get back to them to clarify.

Borley agreed to ask choo separately as he wasn't able to explain.

But you aren't confused at all. Ok I get it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Father Dougal

But you aren't confused at all. Ok I get it.

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FAB: What are the processes for hiring a new manager?

Club: No fixed process.

FAB: Is there a consistent criterion applied to the search for candidates?

Club: No.

You're right, those statements don't confuse me in the slightest.

To be honest, I'm amazed anyone seriously believes Cardiff City FC has any sort of a set 'process' when it comes to appointing managers. Doesn't all of the evidence strongly suggest otherwise?

Actually, don't answer that. Please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

More likely Giovanni Malacrino. He knows f all about football

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I may be completely wrong here but I was told that Marco Caramella HAS put money into the club, additionally one of his most longstanding friends is Tom Ramasut's father, Noi.