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A Labour minister has walked out tonight over government welfare reforms
I hope this is the start of starmer getting his marching orders from his party , so many people have had enough already
Emily Thornberry who herself is often living in pseudo intellectual land was on newsnight just now and to be fair to her was hardly defending her government
Fair play to her for being honest about her feelings and taking the personal hit for standing by them but I can't help but think the crucial part of her statement that is completely missed by most people who are against this bill is that the UK has a massive looming problem in not just welfare spending but the amount of people who are out of work/not looking for work and no plan to deal with it.
I personally can't square the circle of benefit cuts whilst giving the winter fuel allowance back to a pensioner with an income of 34,999 but that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. 'we should be helping people into work' is one of these hollow ever-present statements that rattle around UK politics without any substance so I don't feel like that is a get out clause.
PIP is not an out of work benefitQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
The reform around that is laughable
Its basically telling people who were disabled last week that this week they are not disabled enough so we are taking half your income away
If you would be happy facing that with whatever responsibilities in life you have then you must be a robot
The gradual reduction in winter fuel payments to those who could afford it could be argued to be a sensible long term plan if administered properly.....but it was a complete disaster
If PIP was means tested that could be a winner but slashing away most of the benefit , right across the board is staggeringly stupid
PIP is nothing to do with the ability to work ..its to do with how a health condition or disability affects you
And like Liz Kendal you have made exactly the same comments about people not in work when PIP is absolutely nothing to do with that
Its disingenuous, false , completely misleading and is going to lead to appalling problems and slash the number of Labour MPs even further
Yeah that is a fair point and distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I am broadly in favour of means testing pip but I'd imagine they have run the numbers and come to the conclusion that means testing isn't going to save much at all because richer people aren't bothering to jump through the hoops to claim it. This is part of my concern about the government really, essentially that everything is done based on a balance sheet with savings one side and 'negative political capital' on the other side, my support for the WFA allowance change was really just based upon fairness and their comms and subsequent U-turn make it pretty clear that they aren't thinking much about systemic changes to make the whole system fairer.
I suppose it's probably worth reflecting at times And much of my support for benefits bill has come from the 'running the numbers' (at a very basic level), which removes the human element entirely and probably isn't great.
I am at a bit of a loss as to what I think the government should/shouldn't do about the looming crisis and tbh reading the whips resignation, I don't think any of the people voting against it have any great ideas either, they just don't want to be complicit in this (which is fair enough I guess), it doesn't really lead us anywhere though. We have had 14 years of chronic can kicking and the Tories who were promoting the idea of low migration and less people on relying on welfare have left the exact opposite. I do wish labour would make more of that, rather than constantly blabbering about the 'black hole' in the finances, which is definitely not landing.
123 rebels so farQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
He hasn't got a clue
I still don't get how a bill can simultaneously be so damaging to severely disabled people and at the time not actually result in a real terms cut to spending.
Are we actually just spreading it too thin? Too many people claiming 'something' and not enough going to people who need it the most?
I try to steer clear of anecdotes/specifics but struggling to find data that provides any insight.
The savings are 5 billion up to 2030 , that's a small part of the welfare budgetQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
You would expect whole sale changes based on reducing the number of claiments and target support to provide far more than that
And it's all designed to build a war chest to satisfy TrumpQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Is that meant to be a joke?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
Even with this bill, spending on disability benefits is due to rise massively between now and the end of this parliament after rising massively since COVID. It doesn't free up any money.
Despite Starmer responding to questions earlier saying they are pushing ahead, I can't see them letting this vote happen if they can't win it comfortably with government votes. Optically they are better off pulling the bill than relying on Tory support.
Eric do you think the vote will be pulled?
I can't remember exactly what they said but on the Daily Politics today on BBC2 they outlined how unprecedented a defeat at this stage would be. First one since 1986 or something remarkable.
I cant see it myself. I think the party will pull rank and it will pass
I don't know but it will be a messy few days. I just can't see there being any good outcome for Starmer here, they pull rank and burn goodwill, even if they win the vote it gets kicked back and forth between the commons and the lords, and rightly so as it isn't a manifesto pledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I think they should pull it and have another go at putting together something more palatable to their own party but obviously its another episode of perceived incompetence. Unfortunately a lot of rebel MPs know that something needs to be done but don't have the stomach to do it, so I don't think that will get us anywhere. I think hyperbole has taken over already.
Never going to happen because it would be mental but if Starmer did want to throw his weight around, treating any loss as a loss of confidence in the government and committing to call a general election if he loses would get quite a few labour MPs feeling a bit twitchy.
Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up prontoQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up prontoQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Huge changes , hes going to be lynched by his own troops unless he shapes up prontoQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
he should be able to hide himself away amongst the island of strangers. Your guy is really shining isn't he ?Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Its nonsenseQuote:
Originally Posted by Heathblue
I have gone green 💚
A damning attack by my MP:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...u-turn-starmer
Nothing wrong with a Government that occasionally realises the error of its ways and makes a u turn, but this awful Prime Minister, backed by his disaster of a Chancellor have done so on three of its headline policies now - this shows the seriously poor political judgement at its heart. Starmer has now said he regrets his nation of strangers remark and he wouldn’t have done so if he knew the connotations behind it - what a terrible admission to have to make and what an indictment of him and the people close to him who are supposed to advise him on such matters.
It was an appalling remark and hiding behind ignorance only shows him in an even worse light.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
With my childish sense of humor, I'll admit that ive been having a chuckle at the unhinged extreme lefties of CCMB criticizing their PM and having to realise that they voted for someone further right than the grifter in chief otherwise known as Nigel Farage, nice discernment guys :hehe: :hehe: better luck at the next election :hehe: :hehe:
Similar to WFA, the u-turn is actually worse than the original policy.
I don't understand how anybody could justify what they seem to have settled on.
I have tried to read as much as possible about this but I'm tired of wading through hyperbole. I have settled on the following:
- I don't think the average person who is against welfare reform has actually absorbed the spending projections and has any idea where we are heading.
- I don't understand why pip is administered by the DWP.
As for the calls for a pause and a 'risk assessment' (I.e. kick the can down the road). What is the risk of doing nothing? A ballooning bill, a future government that is united on welfare 'reform', that sees it as easy pickings and overreacts.
It's probably worth saying that I am not convinced labour were doing this for the right reasons, i.e. they were more interesting in balance the books than getting it right.
Jon's guardian article was interesting to me, she applied for pip and didn't get it, the article made clear her daily struggles. Essentially, if you take everything at face value, you have to believe that the 3.5+ million people who claim PIP are worse off than that... I don't think I do, the system is broken, money is spread too thin.
Starmer needs topplingQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
This is by far his biggest screw up
Taking 200 quid off the pensioners was handled incredibly badly ....it should have been phased in
The initial proposal for welfare was that someone with a registered disability would lose 5 grand .....not 200 quid ....a year .....because although they remain disabled.....the computer says no
Less money , a freeze for a few years .....compromise could have been reached
But it was a severe attack and the rebel labour MPs rightly told him to stuff it
But he and his team have just sold the ones who have backed down a dead fish
Because whilst those already disabled are protected ....till their next assessment .....and then possibly cut adrift .......anyone out there who becomes disabled in the next two years .....stroke , car crash , sepsis , accident at work , meningitis.......has to somehow be more disabled .....need more points ...to get support than the ones who get it now
Even worse
Those who have kids or loved ones......dont have an accident , have a stroke ....because this bill will crap on you from a great height
I hope this brings him and the rest of the chancers .....Reeves, Rayner , Timms , Cooper ......down and as soon as possible the rest of the party elect a decent leader , before its too late
Worry about saving money at another time , this is absolutely appalling behaviour from Labour
Get him goneQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
He should never have got involved in politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
He probably shares that view with you right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
nice to see you back SL
Nobody could have predicted how bad he and this government were going to beQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
The right wing voters are welcome to farage but starmer is slaying his core vote and either he goes or the greens and liberals will get old school labour supporters
Which will only mean that farage walks into number 10
Get starmer out pronto
The leadership are trying to turn a tanker around in a canal, partly due to their self imposed financial rules. But the UK has a massive issue coming down the tracks in terms of disability spending and obviously pension spending, all the while more and more of the budget gets eaten up by interest payments. Too much of the workforce are earning shit money these days, any rise in taxes will be felt. If Reeves announces an extension to fiscal drag on income tax bands or income tax rises, will there be 120 rebel MPs? Will there ****, the party doesn't have a clue who it is meant to represent anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
If Farage is going to walk into number 10, it's because the right have a bogeyman to rally around in the boats. The left and centre left are too busy whining, fighting each other and trying to appear more ideologically pure than the person next to them to actually do anything.
The opponents to this bill were far from just the usual left wing of the labour partyQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Farage is going to walk into number ten because starmer is utterly incompetent .....even with reform on a roll just a bit of shape and substance would be enough to get over the line but hes completely shot to bits .
The behaviour of the cabinet and junior ministers on this particular matter has sunk any chance of a revival for Starmer and his supporters . The lies and misinformation spread about are as bad if not worse than anything the Tories have come up with .
If you are going to deal with such important issues as those contained in the subject matter of the bill you need to get the basics right . But its been a list of lies and its painfully obvious when the main players face the media over the whole shambles .
The worst thing you can do when you are short of friends is take the piss out of the ones you have left .
That female comic with cerebral palsy on this mornings politics show was clearly the core labour voter hes lost . If hes not chased out of office together with his acolytes the party is completely finished .
The issue of financial responsibility can only be dealt with if the core of what's on offer is believable . At the moment its about as genuine as a fake twenty pound note . Nobody who matters is falling for any of it .
I think the bill will sail through now the concessions have been made. Will probably be enough to satisfy half of the reported rebels.
That's what you thought before the concessionsQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
The concessions are nonsense
I assume you are in reasonable health as of today
If someone you know is wheelchair bound due to a disability they will probably get pip as of now
If these fibs dressed up as concessions gp through then YOU , in two years time could be seriously injured in a car crash but under the new 4 points system you will be rejected
This reform is bollocks and I hope its starmers poll tax
It may limp through if enough 'rebels' have been talked around, but the policy is incoherent and illogical. It creates two tiers of benefit recipients. It does not reform the benefits system to make it work better - it just applies cuts to make savings for the Treasury. It lacks any vision or any political courage. It has also - once again - exposed the Starmer government as confused and incompetent. In the lead up to the election the Starmer inner circle had a reputation for bullying, ruthlessness and getting things done (often bad things, but they did get them done). In government all that has gone - except for the bullying!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Chris Bryant Rhondda who represents an area where lots of people have long term health disability is backing ss starmerQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Jo Stephens , Welsh secretary ......same
This is the end of the labour party and maybe that's a good thing as clearly if only 127 and now 30 Mps are not prepared to back a bill farage would have been proud of , its time to regroup and call it a day
The thousands of people who in two or three years time will suddenly find themselves disabled and in need of PIP for care , adaptations , transport if they cant drive .....will be thrown aside on these new rules
What they have done is say those on pip now ....they are OK.....but from 2026 onwards ......any new vulnerable people ? .......get fecked
The Labour Mps who vote this through ? ........yeah OK that sounds fair enough
No way can any left of centre voter support that sort of backstabbing , he and Labour have had it
Yeah i think it's a mess and I won't pretend to have drilled into the details on it. I'm just observing as an exercise in Westminster politics really.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
What does annoy me is the limp acceptance that so many more are claiming since Covid and the total lack of commentary on why that is.
Some people are on the take, we all know that's true, but generally people don't pretend to be unwell, they pretend to be well.
I'm beyond angry at the state of mental health in this country and the way politicians glibly accept it and do nothing to think about the root causes
Richard Burgon MP opinion piece today on why he will still oppose the cuts:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...isabled-people
Some people drink and driveQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Some people .....a lot of people ....make false insurance claims
The level of welfare benefits to GDP has been stable since 2008
Stephen Timms the minister involved in all this had to accept this recently
A plague on all their houses , especially starmers gang who are dead ducks in the water unless they pull lots of rabbits out of the hat
If its bad with Starmer , farage will go round with firing squads
Going off topic here but actually Reform have spoken far more about some of the root causes of poor mental health since Covid; isolation, working from home, technological changes, social media, and this is something I would like to hear far more from the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Working from home VASTLY improved my mental health so that is just another right wing chestnut.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Always anecdotal cases but not generally it hasn't and not for younger people, people earlier in their careers and those who need interaction. It's been devastating and the costs of it are baked into what we are seeing now. I can think of no single non-financial policy change that has so benefitted the wealthy and well-to-do, those with more comfortable homelives, spare rooms for offices etc. The impact on those who need interaction (the vast majority of people do) is really serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
Theres a reason the country is mentally so unwell and that's a big part of it
Reform have spoken more about mental ill health than starmer and co ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Whilst that wouldn't be difficult I would be extremely surprised if that was the case
Reform definitely appeal to the .....pull yourself together gang ....everyone is playing the mental health card these days ! ......etc etc
But of course these reforms affect people with all sorts of disabilities and chronic ill health
Timms is on sky again this evening talking bollocks about consultation .....which will according to him be thorough ......and of course he hopes will take place AFTER the initial bill has been passed tomorrow 😆
Absolute shower , I hope they all fall down like a pack of cards
Its a financial bill to save money .....and they should have been straight about that .....at least then their talk of consultation and support and compromise could have been taken seriously ....because compromise is part of life .but there is no compromise and concessions with this , its the same bill with Liz Kendal and her team pretending to be caring and emotional about it in Parliament