Palestine Action

The Parliamentary vote is tomorrow on Yvette Cooper's draft order to proscribe Palestine Action, the direct action organisation:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g83l33wdeo

Some nodding dogs in the Labour and tory parties, and parts of the right wing press, but almost universal anger and opposition from most other directions - including inside the civil service, in parts of the Labour and other parties, from civil liberties and human rights organisations and activists, and even prominent opinion pieces in sections of the right wing media.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ault-democracy

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...cles-for-you_1

Simon Heffer in the Telegraph: 'Palestine Action are not terrorists. The RAF is just grossly incompetent.' (you would have to register to read the full article - I'm not doing that).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-civil-servant

https://palestinecampaign.eaction.org.uk/NoProscription

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...estine-action/

https://www.quaker.org.uk/news-and-e...lestine-action

Palestine Action members have never been accused, let alone convicted, of any violent offence. They use direct action - often vandalism, graffiti and occupation - to target the arms supply chain to Israel (especially the suppliers and bankers for Elbit Systems, Israel's biggest arms company) and highlight the ongoing war crimes, mass civilian murder and genocide in Gaza.

They have been effective in publicising the issue. They have become a target for the various Israel/Zionist lobbying organisations in the UK - from the Israeli Embassy to MP Luke Akehurst's (Zionist Shitlord - his words) 'We Believe In Israel' and going through the Conservative Friends Of Israel and Labour Friends Of Israel (Yvette Cooper a member as are half the Cabinet).

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24...ist-safe-seat/

If they cause criminal damage there are laws in place to use for prosecution - and that has happened frequently. To define the organisation and its supporters as terrorist is madness - it is Trump-style authoritarianism and has no place in a liberal democracy. Meanwhile the real terrorists have shot dead more than a hundred Palestinians desperate for food in the last day!

PA members damaged two RAF planes at Brize Norton

by daubing red paint on them. No one was hurt. The plane's were not disabled - just decorated!

'Criminal damage'!

The RAF has been flying recon for Israel from its' Cyprus base for well over a year!

It seems so pointless and childish. They aren't terrorists in my view but I don't really know what they are trying to achieve by doing that. I think the public in the USA and UK are starting to see Israel for what it is and they should try and capitalise on that by exposing it's influence rather than throwing paint at things.

The news report I saw was pretty funny about security at the base, it was like a garden fence.

I am not a fan of throwing paint at planes or artwork.

But I do think non-violent actions (stunts if you like) to generate publicity for a message or a cause can be effective.

In this case the reaction from Israel (and its lobbyists) and the UK government suggests Palestine Action have been effective.

There have also been recent breakthroughs by the BDS movement.

I think (and hope) this will be another example of the Starmer government losing its bearings and judgement - and if it wins the vote tomorrow it will pay a major political price and will have to U-turn (again).

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Originally Posted by jon1959

The Parliamentary vote is tomorrow on Yvette Cooper's draft order to proscribe Palestine Action, the direct action organisation:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g83l33wdeo

Some nodding dogs in the Labour and tory parties, and parts of the right wing press, but almost universal anger and opposition from most other directions - including inside the civil service, in parts of the Labour and other parties, from civil liberties and human rights organisations and activists, and even prominent opinion pieces in sections of the right wing media.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ault-democracy

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...cles-for-you_1

Simon Heffer in the Telegraph: 'Palestine Action are not terrorists. The RAF is just grossly incompetent.' (you would have to register to read the full article - I'm not doing that).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-civil-servant

https://palestinecampaign.eaction.org.uk/NoProscription

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...estine-action/

https://www.quaker.org.uk/news-and-e...lestine-action

Palestine Action members have never been accused, let alone convicted, of any violent offence. They use direct action - often vandalism, graffiti and occupation - to target the arms supply chain to Israel (especially the suppliers and bankers for Elbit Systems, Israel's biggest arms company) and highlight the ongoing war crimes, mass civilian murder and genocide in Gaza.

They have been effective in publicising the issue. They have become a target for the various Israel/Zionist lobbying organisations in the UK - from the Israeli Embassy to MP Luke Akehurst's (Zionist Shitlord - his words) 'We Believe In Israel' and going through the Conservative Friends Of Israel and Labour Friends Of Israel (Yvette Cooper a member as are half the Cabinet).

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24...ist-safe-seat/

If they cause criminal damage there are laws in place to use for prosecution - and that has happened frequently. To define the organisation and its supporters as terrorist is madness - it is Trump-style authoritarianism and has no place in a liberal democracy. Meanwhile the real terrorists have shot dead more than a hundred Palestinians desperate for food in the last day!

PA members damaged two RAF planes at Brize Norton

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You were doing good there until your TDS got the better of you towards the end of the post!

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

You were doing good there until your TDS got the better of you towards the end of the post!

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That was the punch line.

I must admit, I was initially surprised to hear talk of proscribing the group. I have very little time for them but I'd have thought their 'direct actions' are more criminal than terrorist.

I guess the way to look at it is the extent and history of their damage against institutes of the state. I don't think they did "just spray" some planes either. They broke into a military site and sprayed paint into engines, and damage estimated at £30m. Not their first act and an indication they would do it again.

Whats £30m in police cars? Maybe 500 cars? If someone was directly targeting the state by taking those out of action I can see why it can be considered as using "terror (violence)" against the state.

Personally I just think they are fkn idiots more than anything, but that has never been a criminal offence.

We can't go around banning a never ending list of groups but on UK soil I would wager that they have done more damage to the state than most of the proscribed groups on the list, so I can see the justification even I'm not wholly behind it.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/explai...lestine-action

Kelly's Solicitors, which specialises in political and protest-related work, and represents Palestine Action, has argued in a letter to Cooper that a “significant number” of the group’s activities have employed “entirely conventional campaigning methods such as marches, rallies and demos”.

Laura O’Brien, head of the protest team at Hodge Jones & Allen Solicitors, told MEE: “Palestine Action isn’t a membership organisation, really it's a campaign. And the people that become involved in what are generally expressive forms of protest have often never been in trouble before.

“Many of the actions carried out under the banner of Palestine Action don’t include significant damage, some of them include damage which is low value, often as simple as throwing red paint which is washed away.

“When people are charged with criminal damage, and we go to court, a lot of those damages which are put forward aren’t in fact criminal damage - they’re consequential losses,” Simon Pook, a solicitor representing several of the Filton 18 activists, told MEE. “The costs that are initially put forward when the case opens are subsequently substantially reduced."

Cooper stated that the assessment of damage by the group's actions over the last five years had been based on “a robust evidence-based process, by a wide range of experts from across government, the police and the security services”.

But Charlie Falconer, who served as justice secretary under Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair, said that the Brize Norton action did not merit proscription “so there must be something else that I don’t know about”.

How does the action at RAF Brize Norton compare to similar cases?

Legal experts have highlighted that Palestine Action’s methods are not unprecedented: protestors have targeted military facilities in the past and been acquitted.

In its letter to Cooper, Kelly's pointed to the discrepancy between the government’s response to Palestine Action and that of the Fairford Five, a group of activists who, in 2003, broke into an RAF airbase and sabotaged US bombers before they flew to Iraq during the US-led invasion.

Josh Richards, one of three protesters, was defended by current UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer, who was a barrister at the time. Starmer argued that the actions of his client, who allegedly intended to set fire to a military jet with a mixture of petroleum and washing-up liquid, were a justified attempt to prevent war crimes.

“If you look at the guidance that Keir Starmer set out in that case, it seems to be a massive contradiction,” said Pook. “People may be outraged about spraying red paint on military jets. In my view, that is far less serious than having a can of petrol."

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...cles-for-you_1

They're being treated as terrorists instead of vandals on the level of Extinction Rebellion because they threaten the military-industrial complex and its agenda of blood money from the Israeli lobby.

This is end days Roman Republic stuff. It's getting harder and harder to simply accept how they are conducting themselves whilst they asset strip us of all the positive progress we made for providing for our citizenry post-WW2 and pre-Thatcher.

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Originally Posted by Coyote

They're being treated as terrorists instead of vandals on the level of Extinction Rebellion because they threaten the military-industrial complex and its agenda of blood money from the Israeli lobby.

This is end days Roman Republic stuff. It's getting harder and harder to simply accept how they are conducting themselves whilst they asset strip us of all the positive progress we made for providing for our citizenry post-WW2 and pre-Thatcher.

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Surely you recognize a group that pushes for damage of state military and consistently does so is at least an issue, and not some grand conspiracy?

What if some far right group caused £30m of damage to the coastguard and proposed to continue to do it because of their enabling role in the boat crossings? Would that just be vandalism?

This has nothing to do with post WW2 and even less to do with Thatcher

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Surely you recognize a group that pushes for damage of state military and consistently does so is at least an issue, and not some grand conspiracy?

What if some far right group caused £30m of damage to the coastguard and proposed to continue to do it because of their enabling role in the boat crossings? Would that just be vandalism?

This has nothing to do with post WW2 and even less to do with Thatcher

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Comparing rescuing people from drowning to a genocide for the purposes of making a point is a bit of a stretch James

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Comparing rescuing people from drowning to a genocide for the purposes of making a point is a bit of a stretch James

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No it's not. It's the point of making a legal decision based on damage to state property as opposed to the morality or otherwise behind it.

If "£300m damaging state property" isn't terrorism then other examples of it aren't either. That's the point. the purpose of proscribing groups isn't to comment on the morality of the cause, it's the actions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-court-hearing

Palestine Action has been granted an urgent high court hearing on Friday to try to prevent a banning order against it from coming into effect.

An order was laid before parliament on Monday that would proscribe the group as a terrorist organisation, making being a member of or inviting support for Palestine Action a criminal offence carrying a maximum sentence of 14 years in jail.

The move, announced by the home secretary, Yvette Cooper, last week, would place Palestine Action alongside the likes of al-Qaida, Islamic State and National Action. The move has been criticised as draconian by protest groups, civil liberties organisations and various politicians.

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At a short-notice hearing at the high court on Monday, it emerged that Huda Ammori, a co-founder of Palestine Action, is to be given an opportunity to apply for “interim relief” with respect to the proscription order.

David Blundell KC, representing the Home Office, said the plan had been for the order to be debated in parliament this week and then signed on Friday to come into effect on Saturday.

But the judge, Mr Justice Chamberlain, said that if an application by Palestine Action for interim relief on Friday was successful it would “have the effect of suspending its [the order’s] operation”.

Ammori’s lawyers contend there has been “a failure of the duty to inform the claimant of the basis on which it is proposed to restrict her rights through proscription” and to “afford her the opportunity to make representations before any decision to restrict her rights”.

The submission also states that while “extensive consultation has taken place with the Israeli government and arms companies … no opportunity has been provided for other groups affected or concerned by the proposal to proscribe Palestine Action, including Liberty, Amnesty International and other civil society organisations”.

Liberty, Amnesty International and the European Legal Support Center have submitted supporting witness statements for Ammori’s case alleging the unlawful misuse of anti-terror measures to criminalise dissent, Palestine Action said.

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“This is the first attempt in British history to criminalise direct action, political protest, as terrorism, mimicking many authoritarian regimes around the world who have used counter-terrorism to crush dissent. This would set an extremely dangerous precedent, with repressive impacts right across the Palestine movement.

“Spraying red paint on war planes is not terrorism. Causing disruption to the UK-based arms factories used by Israel’s largest weapons firm, Elbit Systems, is not terrorism.”

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Another hearing has been scheduled for 21 July when Ammori would seek permission for a judicial review to argue that the proscription order should be quashed.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

No it's not. It's the point of making a legal decision based on damage to state property as opposed to the morality or otherwise behind it.

If "£300m damaging state property" isn't terrorism then other examples of it aren't either. That's the point. the purpose of proscribing groups isn't to comment on the morality of the cause, it's the actions.

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Are you suggesting vandalism with paint caused £300m worth of damage? The British Forces should be thankful that a hole in their security was brought to their attention without doing worse damage.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Are you suggesting vandalism with paint caused £300m worth of damage? The British Forces should be thankful that a hole in their security was brought to their attention without doing worse damage.

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Apologies, that's a typo, you can see I wrote £30m above twice.

The planes weren't just sprayed. It wasnt graffiti, the paint was sprayed into the engines.

As stated, I was initially surprised to see talk of them being proscribed, but which other proscribed groups purposefully target the British military (or other state organizations) and get away with it?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/costs-...on-30-million/

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...se-powers-gaza

'We have laws to deal with crimes linked to protest. What this is really about is a government complicit in the Gaza atrocities seeking to silence dissent.' (Juliet Stevenson)

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Originally Posted by jon1959

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...se-powers-gaza

'We have laws to deal with crimes linked to protest. What this is really about is a government complicit in the Gaza atrocities seeking to silence dissent.' (Juliet Stevenson)

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But as I say, in the interests of drilling into this, can you name another non-proscribed group who routinely target the countries military infrastructure?

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Originally Posted by jon1959

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...se-powers-gaza

'We have laws to deal with crimes linked to protest. What this is really about is a government complicit in the Gaza atrocities seeking to silence dissent.' (Juliet Stevenson)

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This disaster of a Government is more concerned about the spilling of red paint than red blood.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

This disaster of a Government is more concerned about the spilling of red paint than red blood.

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True words are ore deadly than bullets

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

But as I say, in the interests of drilling into this, can you name another non-proscribed group who routinely target the countries military infrastructure?

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It is not the point, but what is this 'routinely' you are talking about. Their targets are not normally UK military infrastructure - Brize Norton was not typical - although as Kier Starmer has helpfully explained (a few years ago!) that action would be legitimate to prevent further war crimes, as the RAF has been flying from Cyprus on recon missions for Israel for well over a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action

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Originally Posted by jon1959

It is not the point, but what is this 'routinely' you are talking about. Their targets are not normally UK military infrastructure - Brize Norton was not typical - although as Kier Starmer has helpfully explained (a few years ago!) that action would be legitimate to prevent further war crimes, as the RAF has been flying from Cyprus on recon missions for Israel for well over a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action

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Well I definitely don't think it will be going forward.

But surely you can see - irrespective of the fact you clearly support this group - that causing millions of pounds worth of damage to a nations military equipment in pursuit of your political aim is not normal and whether it is the act of terrorism or not, it is clearly very close to the line if not over it.

What are we supposed to do? Sit back and watch them damage everything? What would the next target be?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well I definitely don't think it will be going forward.

But surely you can see - irrespective of the fact you clearly support this group - that causing millions of pounds worth of damage to a nations military equipment in pursuit of your political aim is not normal and whether it is the act of terrorism or not, it is clearly very close to the line if not over it.

What are we supposed to do? Sit back and watch them damage everything? What would the next target be?

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I have said I'm not a fan of throwing paint over things - so I don't 'support' all their methods - but I do agree with the point they are making and admire their commitment and willingness to risk gaol time.

They are not the villains of the story. They are pointing a finger at the villains who commit their crimes with no consequences.

And the 'What are we supposed to do' question?

Who are 'we'?

But if you are placing yourself in the same place as the UK government, then the answer presumably is you try to prosecute them for criminal damage. Maybe a jury will agree? Maybe a 20 years younger Kier Starmer will have to explain the mitigations again and help to get them acquitted?

What you don't do is misuse the Terrorism Act to proscribe the organisation and its supporters - however much embarrassment is caused, however much you are lobbied by the Israeli Embassy and its echoes, and however much the laxness of RAF security is shown up. What Palestine Action did at Brize Norton was not terrorism or 'close to the line'. That is a very dangerous viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I have said I'm not a fan of throwing paint over things - so I don't 'support' all their methods - but I do agree with the point they are making and admire their commitment and willingness to risk gaol time.

They are not the villains of the story. They are pointing a finger at the villains who commit their crimes with no consequences.

And the 'What are we supposed to do' question?

Who are 'we'?

But if you are placing yourself in the same place as the UK government, then the answer presumably is you try to prosecute them for criminal damage. Maybe a jury will agree? Maybe a 20 years younger Kier Starmer will have to explain the mitigations again and help to get them acquitted?

What you don't do is misuse the Terrorism Act to proscribe the organisation and its supporters - however much embarrassment is caused, however much you are lobbied by the Israeli Embassy and its echoes, and however much the laxness of RAF security is shown up. What Palestine Action did at Brize Norton was not terrorism or 'close to the line'. That is a very dangerous viewpoint.

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But most groups on the proscribed lists most definitely have not caused £30m worth of damage to the British military. Not even close. In most cases its violent language and aims that seems to be the reasoning behind being proscribed. This group has acted it out. Not against people, that's true, and very important to state, but still acted it out.

As I said, I don't think it's cut and dried at all. I just find it interesting that others think that breaking in and purposely damaging the countries military equipment for your own political sins is somehow a million miles away from terrorism, and I'm not sure it is. What if the government don't agree with it? Will they do it again, damage more stuff?

I think they crossed a line tbh and clearly the govt do too.

*political aims* not political sins. The autocorrect on my phone is doing my head in.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...se-powers-gaza

'We have laws to deal with crimes linked to protest. What this is really about is a government complicit in the Gaza atrocities seeking to silence dissent.' (Juliet Stevenson)

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That's a very powerful piece I reckon, made all the more so by what she says in the closing paragraphs.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Surely you recognize a group that pushes for damage of state military and consistently does so is at least an issue, and not some grand conspiracy?

What if some far right group caused £30m of damage to the coastguard and proposed to continue to do it because of their enabling role in the boat crossings? Would that just be vandalism?

This has nothing to do with post WW2 and even less to do with Thatcher

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The problem is that the state military is playing a role in harbouring and sheltering a rogue state committing ethnic cleansing, and may have been on the way to assist Israel in a full-out, completely unsubstantiated and unjustified war against Iran. And yet Palestine Action took an action that ultimately harmed nobody, let alone seriously. It was restrained, and yet this is the disproportionate reaction from the government.

And yes, it does have a lot to do with post WW2 and Thatcher. From the mid-late forties to the seventies, a lot of initiatives were introduced that ushered in an age of economic prosperity and well-being for the citizenry, a lot of which began getting revoked under Thatcher and the neoliberal leaders that followed her. The result is an asset-stripping from the citizenry, and we're now being told there's a possibility we could be involved in fighting on the behalf of a nation conducting a genocide. You can't just give something to the citizenry, and then take it away without expecting them to be furious, and it has disaster written all over it. The corruption in the British and American governments is at a level not seen since the Gilded Age, and this moral crisis and demand we must respect the nation conducting a genocide is the cherry on top the shit sundae. By all standards something restrained from Palestine Action has resulted in them being declared terrorists on the same level as Al-Qaeda and ISIS, which is beyond ridiculous.

People are furious, and this lack of engagement in critiquing Israel's actions in strong enough terms could be absolutely devastating, both morally and structurally.