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A 21 year-old Gen Z dude self-recorded an album and released it on Bandcamp, and then he pops up on the Jools Holland show a few months later. It seems like he bypassed the traditional music industry and relied on word of mouth, and also a few reviews from internet blog sites.
So, is he any good? I'm asking because the Zoomers seem to be an interesting cohort.
https://valeriewonlee.com/how-is-gen...r-generations/
Charlie brown piano....would not want to sit thru an hour of that
That's not the album version, it's just him playing solo on the piano.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTaL ITK
yes! but i can do that and nobody would give a fig because i'm Total ITKQuote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
He’s signed to Partisan in the US, and PIAS in the UK, so no he hasn’t bypassed the traditional music industry - both are huge independent labels that are distributed by Virgin and UMG.
It’s incredibly rare that anyone does manage to completely bypass the industry, because producing albums is expensive - and even if you manage to do it yourself, you need a distributor and a marketing team (radio/DSP pluggers etc.) to have any hope of getting your music in front of people.
I used to work at one of the big indies and even the “DIY” artists who make it big have at least a couple of hundred grand in marketing from a label behind them.
Almost any musician can make an album at home now. And it's free to get your music on the Internet. If people like what they see, you will have a career. The music business is easier to get started in and more of an even playing field than it's ever been. Getting started is much easier these days. Sticking around is more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard.
It's free to get your music onto the Internet, with the other 100,000 albums that have been put onto the Internet that day - who's going to find it? Labels employ people to go into Spotify, Apple Music etc. once a month and plug songs to get on playlists.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
And yes, you can record an album in your bedroom - it's not going to sound great without a professional mix/master, and self producing only works for some genres.
I didn't say anything about bedrooms. I know personally of bands that have made albums in a home "studio", put songs on the internet, then released their stuff on their own label. Then went on to have a decent career. All started without marketing/pluggers etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard.
Getting paid for doing it is getting more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
It's more difficult to make money from publishing these days. But touring and selling merchandise are more lucrative than ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by tforturton
If you have an audience you can tour for/sell merch to. Return to square one.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
One review on one website can get you an an agent and an audience. Again, I have seen it happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard.
Boomers don't understand Zoomers who live in a different world, which is almost exclusively online and they network like crazy. That's why I started the thread, because I think it is interesting how everything is changing. Whether it's for the better I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
If 6 music start to champion you, then you’re made. Idles and Fontaines DC are recent examples, both were playing small venues (e.g. Spillers record store and The Moon club in Cardiff) until Steve Lamacq latched on to them.
I'm 35, I'm far from a boomer... I just spent years working in music and know how things work - how you get that review, how you get that radio play.
Yes, word of mouth is a thing - but you still need to get that initial audience somehow, and just sticking your music on Spotify won't do it.
It's the same as any other business. I could set up an online shop selling t-shirts, but unless I put money into marketing who's going to find it?
I'm actually a live agent - I now run my own company but I've being working at and as a booking agent for about 15 years, it's all I've ever done. As a barometer, one of my biggest bands sold 5k tickets last time they played in London.
It's true that one song on Soundcloud / Spotify, or one review on Pitchfork / Clash / The Guardian etc can get you an agent or "team" around a band these days - 10+ years ago that wasn't the case. Indeed, by the time you read these reviews these days, most bands these days would have a full team in place (management, agent, pr, plugger, label etc).
It's also true that touring and selling merchandise are more lucrative than ever...but only really at a big level, and even then it costs a fortune to tour. You can play the O2 Arena and earn less money than playing a smaller room, because you have to bring everything in to a venue (PA, lights etc) and so the costs to do that show are really high.
At the low and middle end (say The Globe or Clwb, for example), it can be really hard for bands to make money. Indeed, it's harder than ever to break a new band these days, especially if you don't have money behind you, and you're reliant on press, radio play, social media, ticket sales etc etc to help. It's a domino effect - one thing leads to another, leads to another. In all honesty, most of the time it's just luck and good timing...but the groundwork would have been done for months, sometimes years prior. But new bands at a Clwb / Barfly type level are earning low hundreds of pounds per show, not thousands.
Earnie, that's an interesting read. The bit about O2 made me think of comedians being 20 grand out of pocket by doing Edinburgh, but if it lifts them to the next level it's worth it.
How did covid affect you?
I just explained it. The Zoomers live online and they network like crazy. If there is anything good happening they will know about it yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard.
When trying to move up to the next level, so much of it is about a calculated gamble - you look at previous ticket sales, social media stats, how quickly tickets old last time etc to see how much demand is there. Say you sold out The Tramshed 6 weeks in advance last time round in Cardiff, you probably can calculate there's enough in the tank to play the Great Hall @ Cardiff Uni next time you play Cardiff, and move up a level of venue.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
When bands go on support tours say at a Cardiff Uni level, the fees are again (on average) in the low hundreds, so generally it's a loss for the band per show. But if you've got a record coming out, and it's helpful to the press + radio teams for you to do the tour to help boost your profile and (at least on paper) sell more records, it's like the Edinburgh analogy - a bit of a loss leader, if you like.
Covid was bad - I was working for my old boss at the time so was put on furlough and moved back with my parents while my wife (girlfriend at the time), who was working in A&E, took my flat. But in all honesty I thought it was all over and I'd have to get another job. Thankfully I'd been doing it long enough by then that by virtue of just hanging on in there the work eventually came back, but the business is a lot different now post covid, a lot more American / business like with promoters generally not wanting to take as many risks.
I have a teenage relative who plays in a band. They had 2 songs on Spotify and organised their own gigs and an international label found them and offered them a deal. The first thing they did was send them to a top studio to record a single. They are now in debt and there is a good chance they won't make it, but unless you are part of it people have no idea how things work these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Earnie's bench seat
Back to young Mr Winter. After doing some more research I found out that he recorded much of the album in Guitar Centres around New York before they banned him. Yes, he is in a fairly unknown band (his words) called Geese who are signed to Partisan, and he took a sabbatical from the band to record and tour his solo album, but Partisan were horrified with the results and told him not to release it as it would flop, and he would destroy his credibility. As a compromise, they suggested that he release the most happy song as a single and then move on, but he said screw you and released the album himself on Bandcamp (Partisan probably would have distributed the physical media, but I think most of the sales were digital).
What happened next surprised everybody as the album slowly gained traction as he embarked on a solo tour playing in churches and similar places. Then the media got wind of his growing reputation and the New York Times announced him as the next Bob Dylan/Leonard Cohen! There is a lot of folklore surrounding this young man and it's hard to pin down the exact details, even his age is reported differently between publications.
Anyway, he did do a totally Gen Z thing IMO by recording the the album himself and releasing it on Bandcamp, even hiring some musicians off of craigslist. The younger generation are definitely shaking things up, and I have seen first hand how they network and get things done.
You’re completely missing the point - yes, they live online but you can’t just upload a song and expect them to somehow find it!
You need to get the music in front of an audience somehow, and nothing much has changed in how that happens. And the more money (or backers with money like say, a record label) you have, the bigger the audience it’ll reach.
If anything the Internet has made it harder for artists starting out, because rather than just gigging and hope A&R spot you - you’re now competing with rich kids who can spend on marketing themselves. And labels are increasingly only picking up artists with an existing following.
I’ve worked on many many campaigns for artists on both indies and majors, can you not accept that I may know a bit more than just “but the Internet!”?
I should add that a few of the campaigns I worked on included a “DIY artist, found on social media” backstory that was complete bullshit, and they’d actually had a £200k advance… but the press lap that stuff up.
If your relative is actually in debt to the “label”, rather than just having the money spent recording taken out of the royalties - that isn’t a label, they’ve been scammed.
That's exactly how it worked in the case that I mentioned! They were even invited by a booking agent to play at a closed-door event with three other bands to see how they play live.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard.
That's what I mean, they will have to pay the costs before they make any money. I don't know if they got an advance or not, but I can find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard.
If they don't make it, the label will drop them and take the loss. If they stay with the label, the money will be expected to be "recouped" from future royalties. The can't come after you if you don't recoup the money on the songs they released. What was the deal? Bands used to get signed for big money on a three or five album deal. That doesn't happen so much these days because it's so much harder to sell music. Often new bands will get signed for one album with an option for more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Fees for headlining the Great Hall in Cardiff Uni are in the low hundreds? For a 1500 capacity venue? How is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Earnie's bench seat
For supporting, not headlining.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
It's two advances which seems to be the going rate these days, one for an EP and a larger one for a followup album. The booking agents are a separate deal. It's not a massive amount though, and I'd imagine it's pretty standard with the labels spreading their cash around in the hope of landing a big fish. The obvious exception would be if a band turned up fully formed with a pile of existing material.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
It will probably all end in tears for most new artists these days, and they'll be working in Tesco by the time they reach their mid-20's, but I suppose it's a bit of fun and a good life experience. It took bands like Fontaines D.C. 4 albums to get where they are now money wise, while plenty of other talented people are still struggling along, and going back to Cameron Winter he would have been one of them if he hadn't taken matters into his own hands.
In 2017 Fontaine’s DC played a pub gig in London. There were approximately 20 of us in there, including Steve Lamacq, who has ‘championed’ them ever since. They wanted to play Cardiff, and I booked them to play in Undertone (now closed) with a capacity of around 70. The next day their manager called me to say that a record company rep was also in the crowd, and that they were meeting in Dublin to sign a 4 album deal (inc a Grian solo), and we’d have to rearrange the gig after the album was finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
They honoured their commitment, and eventually played at The Moon, probably the most people I’ve ever seen in there….the album was getting a lot of airplay on 6 music by this time, and their popularity rising.
They’ve completed the deal now, and for me the 1st and the last albums are the best, the middle ones are a bit meh, and obviously churned out to satisfy the record company.
It’s amazing to see how they’ve progressed, personally I thought The Murder Capital, also from Dublin, and starting out around the same time, were better, but I guess it’s all about being in the right place at the right time!
They are a great bunch though, and I’m glad they’ve “made it”, they recently played at Cardiff Castle, and their manager contacted me to invite me to the show, and remembered the gig across the street, just over 7 years ago.
Great story :thumbup: I like all of their albums as they didn't stay in one place, but have they got another one in them? It would be remarkable if they came up with 5th to rival their previous work.Quote:
Originally Posted by G rangetown Blue
Hopefully, there are no time restraints on them, so hopefully there’s more to come……they have achieved an awful lot in just 8 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Are they being advanced the money? Or is the label just paying for studio time? Fancy studios are a BIG waste of money these days. They should take the money and buy equipment and a van. Setting up a limited company is not a bad idea either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Yes it does, but its not the norm, which is the point richard. is making.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
with all due respect a good producer is worth their weight in gold, and you ain't getting that in your bedroom when you have no idea how to properly utilise the equipment you have at your disposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
John Leckie springs to mind, that man was a miracle worker.
Good question, and a subtle difference. I don't know the answer, but I suspect the record company wouldn't want them spending the money in the pub! LLC already sorted, these Zoomer kids of today are really switched on.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCBlue
I tend to agree with this. It's an industry and certain professional standards have to be met. Being on a label also gives musicians more exposure, including media coverage, eligibility for award nominations, and access to festival gigs, etc., but it's a double edged sword when you make a deal with the devil. However, there will always be weirdos like Cameron Winter who think the rules don't apply to them :biggrin: I mean who the f**k makes a video like thisQuote:
Originally Posted by HiVis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETZKZzz7MWo
Do Pigeons buy Merch or download music?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
It's almost as if they are playing with us ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
On the Verge of Rock Stardom
Is Cameron Winter ready for the spotlight? He better be.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/05/s...ter-geese.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20250427...ter-geese.html