Are Starmer and these people genuinely mentally defective? If they thought what happened in Amsterdam with Ajax fans was bad, good bloody luck in Birmingham
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Are Starmer and these people genuinely mentally defective? If they thought what happened in Amsterdam with Ajax fans was bad, good bloody luck in Birmingham
I agree with you,i do not think it is anti semitic just common sense to avoid disorder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote
Decision will be reversed soon enough, and rightly so.
But I thought you were against public displays of violence?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Mystic Meg are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote
May as well just ban all football fans from travelling anywhere. Just in case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote
Of course it will be reversed, but wrongly so.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Maccabi Tel Aviv initiated the trouble in Amsterdam - chants of 'Death to Arabs', tearing down Palestinian flags, vandalising homes and taxis (brown drivers!) and chanting for the IDF (many of them were reservists) during a genocide.
The reaction spilled over into violent ambushes, and some of the social media posts organising the response were certainly anti Semitic. But the Amsterdam and state politicians (but not the police) framed the whole thing as an anti Semitic incident - and echoed every warped and 'we are the victims' statement from the Israeli government.
Now Starmer, Badenoch, Davey and co are doing the same as the Dutch politicians. No recognition that Maccabi Tel Aviv have a history of racist thugs in their following and no recognition that protests are likely to be more about the Israeli genocide, and will certainly (if they are allowed to happen) include a large number of British Jews who oppose Israeli actions and words.
This is part of a deliberate and continuing strategy to demonise the opponents of genocide, to turn every anti Israel protest into yet another false allegation of anti Semitism, and to 'normalise' relations with Israel asap. Now there is an almost (but not complete) ceasefire and the IDF are now only occupying 55% of Gaza - and still blocking aid - this is the chance to introduce a reset and demonstrate state amnesia again.
There is always the chance that the decision on banning Maccabi fans was a fully informed and reasonable one - but the better option would have been for UEFA, FIFA and the Eurovision Warbling Contest to throw Israel out as they did Russia. Of course that would have required consistency and integrity - so was always going to be ignored or the decision deferred.
Most football fans don't come from a nation that has been allowed to get away with genocide in recent history, or chant pro-genocide slogans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger
If you'd like to see football fans get injured in mass, preventable violence, please feel free to advocate for the unapologetically genocidal. I'm sure future generations won't look upon you badly for this, surely not. Life without a conscience or inner dialogue must be interesting, if nothing else.
Police can't win.
If there is trouble it will be a fault of locals and the police, certainly not the poor victimised saints supporting the away team (who appear to chant about how the schools are closed in Gaza because there are no kids left) or the desperate politicians.
If I were the police, I would keep 4 sets of riot gear ready for Starmer, Badenoch, Farage and Davey to come and help keep the peace.
It seems to me that if City had a trip to Ajax and behaved like Tel Aviv fans did, we wouldn't be travelling abroad any time soon. But all of the media want to make it about antisemitism rather than a major risk of violence, based on the previous behaviour of their fans
City fans got banned for years on the basis of past issues and likelihood of a repeat. We were always told the police know best. I support this ban for very good reasons, the area would be a right powder keg and I feel sorry for the police who will needlessly have to go into this mess if the decision is overturned.
Whether Israeli teams should even be in this competition is another matter.
Its a high profile fixture, there's no doubt that. And Maccabi Tel Aviv have some bad fans (as many do) and there will be tensions with some in the local community and probably some who will want to attack them the Maccabi fans too.
But you can't let violence or threats of violence win. The police will have a job to do, just as they do with many high profile fixtures.
There's solutions to mitigate risk other than banning things. If they can bus us into Swansea and back, they can do the same with a meeting point for Maccabi fans for example.
Despite the debate it triggers, the decision to stop Maccabi supporters from attending the football match in Birmingham isn’t the first time away fans have faced restrictions while travelling to games in Europe this season.
Regional police forces banning away fans at some matches - especially in France and Italy - has become more common in recent years.
Fans of Dutch club Ajax were prevented from attending their Uefa Champions League match against Marseille on 30 September. Ajax said the Marseille authorities had told them the ban was due to "public safety and security".
Napoli’s home game with Eintracht Frankfurt in the same competition, scheduled for 4 November, will also not have away fans, with the Naples police justifying the ban by citing "the high risks to public order and safety".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx204j7x4pqt
Didn't AZ Alkmaar and a Polish team get into trouble with Villa themselves in the Europa League last season and got their fans restricted?
You don't have to search too hard to discover here have been similar decisions made (on the grounds of safety and security) which have resulted in the fans of Ajax and Eintracht Frankfurt being banned from travelling to away games in European competitions. Why is this different?
Fly them into BHX. Onto buses at the airport. Give tickets out on the buses. Police escort closing streets off as they go with m/c out riders. Get them in 2hrs before kick off, with a thorough search. Keep them behind after the match. Wait for streets to clear. Onto buses. Straight back to the airport. A bit like us going to the Jacks but without the plane ride. A reasonable compromise?
Because there's not a Dutch or German lobbying effort deeply rooted into expanding national interests across western nations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grievous Angel
And this is not unique to Israel, the UAE, Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia are guilty of this too. People sell out any principles and accountability if it means they can get ahead monetarily in life. It's a demonstration as to why ultra, unregulated capitalism needs to be addressed. You don't have to be a communist or even socialist to see the rampant issues with the system. You can get away with anything as long as you can pay the fine it seems.
How do you know this is true Jon, were you in Amsterdam that evening?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Best solution to the problemQuote:
Originally Posted by IanD
Really? It would be a massive use of police and other public resources and would certainly not guarantee a trouble free night. It also smacks of preferential treatment. No thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68
What part are you questioning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68
Last I checked, Swansea didn't engage in a campaign of genocide, so I'm really not sure why we're making the comparison to a game against the Jacks. Our rivalry with the Jacks ultimately has footballing pride at its core, and while it's obviously turbulent and requires police presence, this game gets to the point where you just want the players to walk off the pitch and not play at all.
The Greeks spoke of different forms of love (storge, philia, eros, agape). In the same way, there are different forms of dislike. We hate Swansea as rivals and as a part of city pride. We aren't accusing them of celebrating genocide enmasse, that's a completely different category; no-one is seriously saying Swansea should be expelled from football just because we hate them. I'm sure plenty of JB's have horrible opinions on this subject, but that's not the same thing either.
Of course it's anti-semitic. They haven't taken this decision cos of football hooliganism; it won't just be Villa fans waiting for them.
You take wikipedia as you like but here is an amalgam of reports of the abnormal events before, during and after where the football match seems incidental!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novemb...msterdam_riots
We have had bubbles, early kick-offs and travel bans by police authorities trying to avoid a fraction of this kind of thing. Yet the designated authorities who want to avoid the risk of a repeat from forces way beyond football fans are under intense pressure to change because somehow the decision is viewed as anti-semetic.
You either delegate the authority to the legally defined bodies or you take it away and give it to politicians watching the way the wind blows, which is what is happening in this case.
Because Starmer is afraid to upset Trump and Netenyahu; Government interference is wrong in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grievous Angel
If it does go ahead (as I expect it will through Government insistence) the Maccabi army might regret attending. They may well discover some Palestine supporters expecting their arrival and ready to keep the peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
So who is it that actually wants peace? Is it the Palestinians and Israeli’s, or just the protesters in Europe and other places in the world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
It’s all getting a bit daft and crazy now.
Peace is elusive! What exactly does it mean? In this case the scenario is a handful of Palestine supporters helping out Villa fans to police an unruly Maccabi mob from causing trouble in their home city. Nothing to do with peace but sensible enough, I'm sure you'd agree Bill? Oh and this is all necessary because our shite National Government will seek to override local police. You couldn't make it up!Quote:
Originally Posted by William Treseder
If you mean the behaviour of the Maccabi fans in Amsterdam I remember seeing the 'citizen journalist' video clips of them rampaging and chanting through the centre of Amsterdam long before there were any incidents in which they were the target. They were shot by several Dutch people who were not associated with Ajax, the Palestine solidarity movement, or taxi drivers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68
Those clips were offered to press and TV outlets across Europe and a few used them - but most didn't and relied on the later footage and on political statements. In the UK the clips were shown 2-3 days after the night of trouble (I think on Sky and Channel 4) but by that time the story had moved on and impressions were fixed.
My understanding is that the retaliation against Maccabi fans was organised very quickly by Amsterdam taxi drivers after some of their number were targeted (for brown skin, Arabic texts hanging from the mirror, for a mini Palestine flag on the dash - who knows) and then it quickly became a night of riot. As I said above, some of the organising posts - shown after in news reports - were certainly anti Semitic and aimed at Jews, not at Israelis celebrating genocide and vandalising central Amsterdam.
But Maccabi instigated the events.
The Amsterdam police - to their credit - refused to repeat the political narrative.
Swansea away...massive use of police resources. It can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grievous Angel
THIS IS NOT A CARDIFF VS SWANSEA GAME. OR ANY OTHER LOCAL DERBY.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD
And why the need for taxpayer's money to be wasted? I'll bet they've got TVs in Israel Shirley?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote
Another point of interest: Ajax is a Jewish supporting club!Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
This is the second time today that an opinion on a matter of fact has been questioned by asking ‘were you there?’ It’s getting ridiculous with some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
If they're f****d to provide a sensible answer it's their go to response. Their report card reads "could do (a lot) better".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blue
Were you there when he typed it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blue
I'm sorry, I wasn't actually in Uganda when Idi Amin took power, I guess I can't comment on him fairly now, sorry lads.
A lot of one sided posts on that Amsterdam event, people ignoring what they want and amplifying other things. The reality is it was a serious event, there was anti Palestinian behaviour from some Maccabi fans, which was responded to in kind by some wholly disproportionate violence after the game towards them, including a lot of stuff that appears to be antisemitic (references to "Jew hunts" etc), and more vandalism from Maccabi fans and others before order was restored.
It's a two-sides thing. Anyone saying otherwise is lying and there's multiple reports on it all.
All of that is reason to ensure the game is marked as a high profile game needing some serious police planning, but none of it means that all Maccabi fans should be banned or that normal Jewish Israeli fans shouldn't feel safe in Birmingham, which we have been told recently is a safe and welcoming city.
Overturn the ban. Let the fans attend. Plan the event to keep people safe, which we do for dozens of games every weekend, and don't let the racists or bigots win.
Football can bring us together. It should be given a chance to do so.
I wasnt in any of the death camps when Hitler arranged to murder several million Jews but I accept the contemporary narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote
Football doesn't need unnecessary violence. Let them watch the match at home and keep everyone happyQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales