Sir Keir Starmer faces the spectre of a rival 'real Labour' party led by Jeremy Corbyn, friends of the ex-party leader claimed last night.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

No, we've had twenty six years of Labour with the Westminster Government pulling the financial strings.

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Thats not strictly true.

Firstly we've had three different colours of govt in Westminster, so just blaming them sounds more like a Plaid type argument, that I don't think you are making

Secondly, Wales receives more Weatminate spending per head tha England by some distance. Also significantly more than we put in. What exactly do we expect Westminster to do?

Thirdly, the Welsh Govt do have signicant tax rasing powers which they choose not to use. They just want Westminster to make that difficult decision rather than themselves.

Fourthly, even if the purse strings were entirely held by Westminster and individual department budgets were set b Westminster (which they arent), how you choose to spend something still matters. If you give 1 million quid to two people, how they spend it matters. It can't just be a case of saying you want more.

I do get peoples ideological preference for one party or another but that shouldnt override the facts staring us in the face.

You criticise the Westminster govt, which is fair enough, but after a quarter of a century where stats are broadly comparable we are nearly always worse off in devolved areas.

Yesterday we learned it was in the area of cancer treatment. I mean, Christ alive, don't people care bot this stuff? I know I do.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Thats not strictly true.

Firstly we've had three different colours of govt in Westminster, so just blaming them sounds more like a Plaid type argument, that I don't think you are making

Secondly, Wales receives more Weatminate spending per head tha England by some distance. Also significantly more than we put in. What exactly do we expect Westminster to do?

Thirdly, the Welsh Govt do have signicant tax rasing powers which they choose not to use. They just want Westminster to make that difficult decision rather than themselves.

Fourthly, even if the purse strings were entirely held by Westminster and individual department budgets were set b Westminster (which they arent), how you choose to spend something still matters. If you give 1 million quid to two people, how they spend it matters. It can't just be a case of saying you want more.

I do get peoples ideological preference for one party or another but that shouldnt override the facts staring us in the face.

You criticise the Westminster govt, which is fair enough, but after a quarter of a century where stats are broadly comparable we are nearly always worse off in devolved areas.

Yesterday we learned it was in the area of cancer treatment. I mean, Christ alive, don't people care bot this stuff? I know I do.

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All I'm doing is pointing out that the Welsh Government does not have total control over how it allocates and spends its money - it's the same in Scotland to a lesser degree. How can the Welsh Government be held solely responsible for what happens in Wales when it doesn't have total control? That's not being party political because the same would be true if we had a Plaid Cymru. Conservative or any other party Assembly Government.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

When have I ever posted a message on here about support socialism or the Labour party?

I'll tell you: Never.

I don't get involved in the left v right political party squabbles on here.

Retract your fantasy about my political leanings, you gibbering idiot.

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I refuse to extract , you silly man

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

All I'm doing is pointing out that the Welsh Government does not have total control over how it allocates and spends its money - it's the same in Scotland to a lesser degree. How can the Welsh Government be held totally responsible for what happens in Wales when it doesn't have total control? That's not being party political because the same would be true if we had a Plaid Cymru. Conservative or any other party Assembly Government.

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stop blaming Westminster for Welsh problems, its about efficiencies , what you have to hand ,how you manage it , we all know the money that has been wasted is wasted by WAG you can see that in their selfish proposal to add more AM's to our bill , 20mph etc when we have not covered off the care in the community , they are useless and just fall back on the ( its Westminster problem ) ffs open ones eyes .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I refuse to extract , you silly man

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I'm silly because I pont out your bullshit. Says a lot about you, you cretin.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I'm silly because I pont out your bullshit. Says a lot about you, you cretin.

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pont = point, of course. Not that LoM can read properly.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

pont = point, of course. Not that LoM can read properly.

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Pont would be a bridge too far for him.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

All I'm doing is pointing out that the Welsh Government does not have total control over how it allocates and spends its money - it's the same in Scotland to a lesser degree. How can the Welsh Government be held solely responsible for what happens in Wales when it doesn't have total control? That's not being party political because the same would be true if we had a Plaid Cymru. Conservative or any other party Assembly Government.

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Except you basically said it's Westminster holding the purse strings. That isn't correct. It's a combination of the two, and that's very different because it at least shares the blame and responsibility. It's a lack of responsibility and accountability that I think is in part behind the generally poor performance of the successive Welsh govts.

The Welsh Govt could raise additional revenue, but they choose not to (whilst expecting Westminster to do the same). They also choose where to spend the money (on 20mph for example instead of better education or healthcare).

I just don't get why we in Wales are so content letting them off the hook. Our education statistics the other month were appalling. Far worse than England and getting worse

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

But I thought you'd only been posting on here a tomato season?

Strange that in this thread, I'm being accused on the one hand of abandoning my left wing principals to vote Tory lite and on the other I'm in a culture war echo chamber on Twitter that makes me more aggressive and fervent in my entrenched left wing view. You Tories need to make your minds up :xmashehe:. In reality, the truth is much simpler, I'll do whatever makes a defeat more likely for your lot at the ballot box.

I see you ignored my question on what would possess anyone to keep on voting for this Government - what have they done in the last four years that makes you proud to be a Tory?

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You've become so fervent that you're accepting Tory lite just to be rid of Tory light-ish.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

All I'm doing is pointing out that the Welsh Government does not have total control over how it allocates and spends its money - it's the same in Scotland to a lesser degree. How can the Welsh Government be held solely responsible for what happens in Wales when it doesn't have total control? That's not being party political because the same would be true if we had a Plaid Cymru. Conservative or any other party Assembly Government.

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We are under performing in areas that the WAG does control. You forgot to address that

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Except you basically said it's Westminster holding the purse strings. That isn't correct. It's a combination of the two, and that's very different because it at least shares the blame and responsibility. It's a lack of responsibility and accountability that I think is in part behind the generally poor performance of the successive Welsh govts.

The Welsh Govt could raise additional revenue, but they choose not to (whilst expecting Westminster to do the same). They also choose where to spend the money (on 20mph for example instead of better education or healthcare).

I just don't get why we in Wales are so content letting them off the hook. Our education statistics the other month were appalling. Far worse than England and getting worse

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Wales has very limited additional tax raising powers.

It can only vary income tax rates via a referendum and you and I know how the public would vote in such a plebiscite.

It can vary stamp duty (which it does) and landfill tax but neither do, or would, bring in substantial sums.

All other tax and welfare rates are set in Westminster.

More than 80% of the Welsh budget is decided in Westminster.

Unlike Westminster, Wales has no powers to borrow money apart from up to £1bn for very specific reasons and certainly not for day-to-day expenditure. Oh and we have to borrow that from Westminster.

So not really a "combination of the two" James.

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Wales has very limited additional tax raising powers.

It can only vary income tax rates via a referendum and you and I know how the public would vote in such a plebiscite.

It can vary stamp duty (which it does) and landfill tax but neither do, or would, bring in substantial sums.

All other tax and welfare rates are set in Westminster.

More than 80% of the Welsh budget is decided in Westminster.

Unlike Westminster, Wales has no powers to borrow money apart from up to £1bn for very specific reasons and certainly not for day-to-day expenditure. Oh and we have to borrow that from Westminster.

So not really a "combination of the two" James.

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Well, it is a combination of the two. And Drakeford considered raising them here not long ago. You also have stamp tax, business rates etc, so it is a mix.

The bulk comes from a block grant from Westminster, that is true, but the WG can raise extra money if they wish, and they have 100% control over how the block grant is spent.

They should be scrutinized by us in Wales far more than they should, given we underperform at almost every level nowadays unfortunately.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...ncome-25844092

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Originally Posted by NinianOpinion1927

We are under performing in areas that the WAG does control. You forgot to address that

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Oh dear, i meant WG not WAG

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well, it is a combination of the two. And Drakeford considered raising them here not long ago. You also have stamp tax, business rates etc, so it is a mix.

The bulk comes from a block grant from Westminster, that is true, but the WG can raise extra money if they wish, and they have 100% control over how the block grant is spent.

They should be scrutinized by us in Wales far more than they should, given we underperform at almost every level nowadays unfortunately.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...ncome-25844092

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You Tories, understandably I suppose, seem to have given up on trying to back the Westminster Government and are now trying to tell people that it’s really the Welsh Government that is to blame for the shambles of the last fourteen years.

Picture the scene at the annual meeting between the leaders of the Welsh and UK Governments where the former tells the latter how big the budget they will receive for the upcoming year is going to be. The UK Government feebly tries to reduce how much they have to give to the Welsh, but are given short shrift and told to stop bleating and pay up.

If that really were the case, then maybe you and the multis in this thread may have a point, but we all know it isn’t. You seem to have a problem with the concept of the partial independence Wales has - as I keep saying, any Welsh Government representing any party cannot be wholly blamed for our standard of living (worse than in 2010 according to plenty of studies I’ve posted links to on here in recent months) in Wales if they are not wholly independent from the UK.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You Tories, understandably I suppose, seem to have given up on trying to back the Westminster Government and are now trying to tell people that it’s really the Welsh Government that is to blame for the shambles of the last fourteen years.

Picture the scene at the annual meeting between the leaders of the Welsh and UK Governments where the former tells the latter how big the budget they will receive for the upcoming year is going to be. The UK Government feebly tries to reduce how much they have to give to the Welsh, but are given short shrift and told to stop bleating and pay up.

If that really were the case, then maybe you and the multis in this thread may have a point, but we all know it isn’t. You seem to have a problem with the concept of the partial independence Wales has - as I keep saying, any Welsh Government representing any party cannot be wholly blamed for our standard of living (worse than in 2010 according to plenty of studies I’ve posted links to on here in recent months) in Wales if they are not wholly independent from the UK.

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Usual culture warrior start by going with "you Tories", creating an "us and them" to the argument.

Pointing out that the WG has tax raising powers doesn't make someone a Tory, it just makes them correct.

I am pro-devolution. Criticism of the WG doesn't make someone anti- devolution, and you know it. That's your second 'culture war' argument of the post. Again, wrong.

No one is wholly blaming the Welsh Govt at all. What I am saying is that they should be held partially responsible, esp in devolved areas. This idea that endless new money would solve the problem doesnt hold water, esp when we perform way below England despite having more spent on us per person.

What I don't understand is why so many people are so unable to criticise Welsh Govt performance despite the evidence staring us in the face.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Usual culture warrior start by going with "you Tories", creating an "us and them" to the argument.

Pointing out that the WG has tax raising powers doesn't make someone a Tory, it just makes them correct.

I am pro-devolution. Criticism of the WG doesn't make someone anti- devolution, and you know it. That's your second 'culture war' argument of the post. Again, wrong.

No one is wholly blaming the Welsh Govt at all. What I am saying is that they should be held partially responsible, esp in devolved areas. This idea that endless new money would solve the problem doesnt hold water, esp when we perform way below England despite having more spent on us per person.

What I don't understand is why so many people are so unable to criticise Welsh Govt performance despite the evidence staring us in the face.

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Well, if im fighting a culture war, the same has to apply to the likes of you who fail to accept the simple, non political, fact that any body, organisation or person without full responsibility for the financing, organisation and governing of something cannot be held fully responsible for its failings - partially, perhaps, but not fully.. That’s a basic truth and no amount of yes, butting will change it.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Well, if im fighting a culture war, the same has to apply to the likes of you who fail to accept the simple, non political, fact that any body, organisation or person without full responsibility for the financing, organisation and governing of something cannot be held fully responsible for its failings - partially, perhaps, but not fully.. That’s a basic truth and no amount of yes, butting will change it.

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It would for anyone who doesn't accept that yes. But I fully accept that the WG doesn't have full control over everything. In fact, few political institutions do.

My point is they do have a hell of a lot of control and responsibility and should be held to far higher standards, esp when underperforming vs England on things that really really are important like education and healthcare

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It would for anyone who doesn't accept that yes. But I fully accept that the WG doesn't have full control over everything. In fact, few political institutions do.

My point is they do have a hell of a lot of control and responsibility and should be held to far higher standards, esp when underperforming vs England on things that really really are important like education and healthcare

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They're underperforming against other parts of the UK too, not just England.

WG look after after Health , Education and Welfare - is that correct ? They are 100% devolved powers ?
How are we doing compared to Scotland , England and N Ireland ?

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Originally Posted by Claude Blue

Wales has very limited additional tax raising powers.

It can only vary income tax rates via a referendum and you and I know how the public would vote in such a plebiscite.

It can vary stamp duty (which it does) and landfill tax but neither do, or would, bring in substantial sums.

All other tax and welfare rates are set in Westminster.

More than 80% of the Welsh budget is decided in Westminster.

Unlike Westminster, Wales has no powers to borrow money apart from up to £1bn for very specific reasons and certainly not for day-to-day expenditure. Oh and we have to borrow that from Westminster.

So not really a "combination of the two" James.

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The Senedd's own website says that the Senedd can vary existing tax rates on its own and create new taxes if it is also approved by Parliament.

There is no mention of a referendum in either case.

Is the website wrong?

The great thing here is all you tory bores on here can gob off as much as you like but you are powerless to create the situation you are desperate to see ....a Welsh tory government

It gives me great pleasure to read all the nonsense on here

Even after a break away some of you are back talking crap again

Poor things

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The great thing here is all you tory bores on here can gob off as much as you like but you are powerless to create the situation you are desperate to see ....a Welsh tory government

It gives me great pleasure to read all the nonsense on here

Even after a break away some of you are back talking crap again

Poor things

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I'm thinking the Reform Party are the best of a bad bunch. You'll vote Tory lite with Starmer and love it

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The great thing here is all you tory bores on here can gob off as much as you like but you are powerless to create the situation you are desperate to see ....a Welsh tory government

It gives me great pleasure to read all the nonsense on here

Even after a break away some of you are back talking crap again

Poor things

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The problem with the approach you and others take though, is to ignore what's going on and point and say ""we'll look over there!".

That's fine to some extent, but its like moaning about Cardiff City and you pointing over there to Leeds Utd or Southampton and saying, "well at least we aren't them".

But despite having their own problems, they are in demonstrably better shape than us. And that's the same here. You keep saying "don't let the Tories into Wales' but they are doing better than we are here

My opinion is that profound changes far beyond the party political system are needed but that aside, when outcomes in health, education, economy etc are better on England, it means there is a total absence of logic to the point you are making.

If things were worse in England then the argument would make sense, but they arent.

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Originally Posted by NinianOpinion1927

I'm thinking the Reform Party are the best of a bad bunch. You'll vote Tory lite with Starmer and love it

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Starmer , blind with one leg and amnesia will be better than the filth

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The problem with the approach you and others take though, is to ignore what's going on and point and say ""we'll look over there!".

That's fine to some extent, but its like moaning about Cardiff City and you pointing over there to Leeds Utd or Southampton and saying, "well at least we aren't them".

But despite having their own problems, they are in demonstrably better shape than us. And that's the same here. You keep saying "don't let the Tories into Wales' but they are doing better than we are here

My opinion is that profound changes far beyond the party political system are needed but that aside, when outcomes in health, education, economy etc are better on England, it means there is a total absence of logic to the point you are making.

If things were worse in England then the argument would make sense, but they arent.

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I don't care and I am bored of philosophical pseudo debate

Keep the tories out

It's no more complicated than that