Say there’d been no Covid and

Football finances in general were in the same shape as they were in 19/20, how much do you reckon we would have to spend in transfer fees if all of the players we’ve signed permanently this summer had, say, a year left on their contracts?

For me, it would be in the region of £10 million and I think that’s a pretty conservative estimate.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Football finances in general were in the same shape as they were in 19/20, how much do you reckon we would have to spend in transfer fees if all of the players we’ve signed permanently this summer had, say, a year left on their contracts?

For me, it would be in the region of £10 million and I think that’s a pretty conservative estimate.

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If you think 10 million is conservative then it clearly isn't your guess. Both statement cannot be correct shirley? :shrug:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Football finances in general were in the same shape as they were in 19/20, how much do you reckon we would have to spend in transfer fees if all of the players we’ve signed permanently this summer had, say, a year left on their contracts?

For me, it would be in the region of £10 million and I think that’s a pretty conservative estimate.

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At least £10m, probably closer to £15m. At least Covid has brought sensibility to something.

I can only speculate at your pure speculation

Very little as they are all pretty unknowns who have shown some potential, perhaps Alsop is worth a fee.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Football finances in general were in the same shape as they were in 19/20, how much do you reckon we would have to spend in transfer fees if all of the players we’ve signed permanently this summer had, say, a year left on their contracts?

For me, it would be in the region of £10 million and I think that’s a pretty conservative estimate.

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Have you been on the sauce this evening?

“Imagine it’s 2019, Covid-19 never happened and players that didn’t have contracts actually had contracts. Do you think the moon would be made of cheese?”

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Have you been on the sauce this evening?

“Imagine it’s 2019, Covid-19 never happened and players that didn’t have contracts actually had contracts. Do you think the moon would be made of cheese?”

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Steve Morison has expressed his frustration on a couple of occasions about how the squad he has put together is perceived. I’ve not checked his claim that the players we have brought in have over 900 Championship appearances between them, but it sounds about right to me and offers evidence that we have not been signing total unknowns who might sink or swim at this level.

Football finances at levels below the Premier League have changed markedly since the onset of Covid with one of the consequences being that the number and quality of players not having their contracts renewed has increased. What is not logical in thinking that we would have to pay transfer fees to bring in some of the players we’ve signed if we were still in the pre Covid world where clubs were more likely to renew the contracts of players than they are now?

Players with the experience and quality of some we’ve signed (eg Sawyers, Rinomhota, Allsop, Romeo, O’Dowda) only became available for nothing very rarely pre Covid when there was a lot more money in the game than there is now and it’s my view that it would have cost millions to bring the players in we have over the summer in the not too distant past - they aren’t the bunch of waifs and strays some accuse them of being.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Players with the experience and quality of some we’ve signed (eg Sawyers, Rinomhota, Allsop, Romeo, O’Dowda) only became available for nothing very rarely pre Covid when there was a lot more money in the game than there is now and it’s my view that it would have cost millions to bring the players in we have over the summer in the not too distant past - they aren’t the bunch of waifs and strays some accuse them of being.

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I’m not sure what the manager did or didn’t say, so I have no opinions on that, but I think the paragraph I’ve quoted above is nonsense.

The individual circumstances of the players you’ve mentioned would have been no different pre-Covid. I’m not suggesting they were free transfers because they are no good, far from it in most cases, but out of contract players have been moving from club to club in the Championship for many years.

Allsop has had 12 clubs and has never attracted a transfer fee. Romeo had fallen out of favour at Millwall and was on loan in League One last season. Sawyers wasn’t in West Brom’s plans last season and it was no surprise at all when he was released. Ojo’s release by Liverpool was fully expected. Bristol City decided against triggering an extension to O’Dowda’s contract, and while Reading would no doubt have liked to keep Rinomhota, he was out of contract at a club that has been lurching from one crisis to another in recent years.

City certainly seem to have worked well in the transfer window this summer and appear to have done some good business, but I think the gist of your post is nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Football finances in general were in the same shape as they were in 19/20, how much do you reckon we would have to spend in transfer fees if all of the players we’ve signed permanently this summer had, say, a year left on their contracts?

For me, it would be in the region of £10 million and I think that’s a pretty conservative estimate.

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How many of these players were available because of COVID ? I don't know, but I do think that their 'worth' has to £10m - that's £750k per player - about right.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I’m not sure what the manager did or didn’t say, so I have no opinions on that, but I think the paragraph I’ve quoted above is nonsense.

The individual circumstances of the players you’ve mentioned would have been no different pre-Covid. I’m not suggesting they were free transfers because they are no good, far from it in most cases, but out of contract players have been moving from club to club in the Championship for many years.

Allsop has had 12 clubs and has never attracted a transfer fee. Romeo had fallen out of favour at Millwall and was on loan in League One last season. Sawyers wasn’t in West Brom’s plans last season and it was no surprise at all when he was released. Ojo’s release by Liverpool was fully expected. Bristol City decided against triggering an extension to O’Dowda’s contract, and while Reading would no doubt have liked to keep Rinomhota, he was out of contract at a club that has been lurching from one crisis to another in recent years.

City certainly seem to have worked well in the transfer window this summer and appear to have done some good business, but I think the gist of your post is nonsensical.

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It becomes nonsensical if we were always going to get all of those experienced and able Championship performers for nothing whether Covid happened or not. I think there was absolutely no chance of that happening. There is no way that we would have been able to perform a rebuilding job of the scale we have done this summer on the budget we had and ended up with a squad which could compete at this level were it not for the higher number of players good enough to play at Championship level available in the free transfer market because of the losses clubs made during lockdowns and periods when the grounds were closed.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It becomes nonsensical if we were always going to get all of those experienced and able Championship performers for nothing whether Covid happened or not. I think there was absolutely no chance of that happening. There is no way that we would have been able to perform a rebuilding job of the scale we have done this summer on the budget we had and ended up with a squad which could compete at this level were it not for the higher number of players good enough to play at Championship level available in the free transfer market because of the losses clubs made during lockdowns and periods when the grounds were closed.

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So which of the players City have signed for nothing do you believe they would have been unable to sign for nothing had Covid not happened and why?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

It becomes nonsensical if we were always going to get all of those experienced and able Championship performers for nothing whether Covid happened or not. I think there was absolutely no chance of that happening. There is no way that we would have been able to perform a rebuilding job of the scale we have done this summer on the budget we had and ended up with a squad which could compete at this level were it not for the higher number of players good enough to play at Championship level available in the free transfer market because of the losses clubs made during lockdowns and periods when the grounds were closed.

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But if the clubs releasing the players had not made those covid-caused losses it could be fair to assume we wouldn't have either and so would have been in a better position to buy players anyway because the budget we would have would have been different from the budget we actually had.(Allegedly) :shrug:
As things stand it would seem that every cloud has a silver lining! :ayatollah:

on transfermarkt the value of the new signings are about £14.5m (including 3.5ish for the loan signings).

not sure how they work their values out, and they often bear little relation to actual transfer fees.

their total for the club is about £27m which is middling championship I think.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

So which of the players City have signed for nothing do you believe they would have been unable to sign for nothing had Covid not happened and why?

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I understand your point but you don’t appear willing to understand Bob’s. Could it be that pre-covid these players may have had their contracts renewed (or are do you think they were ready for the football scrapheap?).

If we’d tried to sign them all when they had 12 or 13 months on their deals do you think the clubs would have just let them go for free (of course that would have been a possibility) or would they have commanded a fee.

If what we read is true, many of the players we’ve signed had multiple offers to consider. In a world where they still had contracts that strikes me as a plausible reason why their previous clubs would probably have been able to command a fee for their services. I suspect the club knew the contracts were winding down and had engaged the players many months ago… sort of a bit like the situation we had with Flint, a £5m defender on a big contract who clubs likely wanted at this level but were prepared to wait out his contract rather than pay a fee during the last 12 months of his deal.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Football finances in general were in the same shape as they were in 19/20, how much do you reckon we would have to spend in transfer fees if all of the players we’ve signed permanently this summer had, say, a year left on their contracts?

For me, it would be in the region of £10 million and I think that’s a pretty conservative estimate.

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I think it is a bit of a moot point as I don’t think we or any other team let as many deals expire

It’s never been this easy for a manager to assemble a new team.

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Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton

I understand your point but you don’t appear willing to understand Bob’s. Could it be that pre-covid these players may have had their contracts renewed (or are do you think they were ready for the football scrapheap?).

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Pre-Covid, I don’t think any of the players City have signed would have had their contracts renewed or in a couple of cases would have accepted contract offers from their clubs. But that doesn’t mean they were on the football scrap heap by any means, it’s just down to their circumstances or the circumstances of the clubs they were at.

City have signed plenty of decent out-of-contract players over the years, and have released plenty of decent players too. It happens regularly.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

So which of the players City have signed for nothing do you believe they would have been unable to sign for nothing had Covid not happened and why?

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I mentioned five of them in an earlier post, but I would mention that Romeo was a regular at Millwall until he fell out with their supporters over BLM/taking the knee.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I mentioned five of them in an earlier post, but I would mention that Romeo was a regular at Millwall until he fell out with their supporters over BLM/taking the knee.

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So why do you think the circumstances would have been different pre-Covid for any of the players you mentioned? Do you think West Brom would have offered Sawyers a new contract? Do you think Allsop would have stayed at Derby in League One? Do you think Rinomhota would have accepted a new deal at Reading? Do you reckon Bristol would have exercised their option of another year for O’Dowda?

I don’t, I think each player was due to move on for varying reasons, and I don’t think that would have been any different pre-Covid.

why do people have such a difficulty with the concept of trying to make an assessment of roughly how much value we've added to the squad with the free transfers?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

why do people have such a difficulty with the concept of trying to make an assessment of roughly how much value we've added to the squad with the free transfers?

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That’s not what the thrust of Bob’s opening post was. He presented a hypothetical and, in my opinion, a nonsensical situation based around Covid-19.

I would agree with this article

https://www.footballbenchmark.com/li..._players_world

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

So why do you think the circumstances would have been different pre-Covid for any of the players you mentioned? Do you think West Brom would have offered Sawyers a new contract? Do you think Allsop would have stayed at Derby in League One? Do you think Rinomhota would have accepted a new deal at Reading? Do you reckon Bristol would have exercised their option of another year for O’Dowda?

I don’t, I think each player was due to move on for varying reasons, and I don’t think that would have been any different pre-Covid.

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Right, starting with Sawyers. In 19/20, he was in a West Brom side that got promoted and was regarded as one of the best players in his position in the Championship. The Premier League did not work out well for West Brom or Sawyers and he lost his place in the team.

West Brom then bought a new manager in for the Championship, Sawyers was clearly not an Ishmael type player and it was no surprise that he was loaned out, but I strongly believe that this was a situation where pre Covid West Brom would have been able to sell Sawyers with a year of his contract left as a proven Championship level midfielder who would be a first choice at most of the teams in the division. However, with transfer budgets smaller because of a loss of revenue caused by Covid, no one was willing to pay what I believe would have been a seven figure fee for his services. I don’t think that reasoning is nonsensical at all.

That’s one specific case, but it’s more of a general point at issue here - are you denying that the transfer market has changed for most Championship clubs because of Covid? Do you think City could have created a whole new squad pre Covid while spending a reported £540,000 in transfer fees (we’re supposed to have received £150,000 for Connolly as well), a squad where there were collectively 900 plus Championship appearances among the newcomers, plus someone who has won twenty five caps for a country in the top thirty of the world rankings? Where clubs would have been looking to cash in on players of a certain standard by selling them with a year left on the contract pre Covid, they were unable to do that in the new circumstances because the money was just not there in the sort of clubs that would have been buying such players three and four years ago.

Credit to Steve Morison and those who work on the recruitment side at City, they’ve brought in a squad which should, given the ability within it, improve on last year’s position, but, with so many players contracts running out and the improved standard of players available for nothing, they had an opportunity which may never be repeated this summer - you could see a mile off that this summer represented a fantastic opportunity for a club that was clever in its recruitment to improve their squad without breaking the bank.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

That’s not what the thrust of Bob’s opening post was. He presented a hypothetical and, in my opinion, a nonsensical situation based around Covid-19.

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I think the question was just poorly worded.

To me the question is, in the 2020 market, how much are these players worth with a reasonable time left on their contract.

If that is the question the answer is hell a lot more than £10m

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Right, starting with Sawyers. In 19/20, he was in a West Brom side that got promoted and was regarded as one of the best players in his position in the Championship. The Premier League did not work out well for West Brom or Sawyers and he lost his place in the team.

West Brom then bought a new manager in for the Championship, Sawyers was clearly not an Ishmael type player and it was no surprise that he was loaned out, but I strongly believe that this was a situation where pre Covid West Brom would have been able to sell Sawyers with a year of his contract left as a proven Championship level midfielder who would be a first choice at most of the teams in the division. However, with transfer budgets smaller because of a loss of revenue caused by Covid, no one was willing to pay what I believe would have been a seven figure fee for his services. I don’t think that reasoning is nonsensical at all.

That’s one specific case, but it’s more of a general point at issue here - are you denying that the transfer market has changed for most Championship clubs because of Covid? Do you think City could have created a whole new squad pre Covid while spending a reported £540,000 in transfer fees (we’re supposed to have received £150,000 for Connolly as well), a squad where there were collectively 900 plus Championship appearances among the newcomers, plus someone who has won twenty five caps for a country in the top thirty of the world rankings? Where clubs would have been looking to cash in on players of a certain standard by selling them with a year left on the contract pre Covid, they were unable to do that in the new circumstances because the money was just not there in the sort of clubs that would have been buying such players three and four years ago.

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To be honest, I’m just sorry I responded in the first place.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

To be honest, I’m just sorry I responded in the first place.

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Steve Morison has expressed his frustration on a couple of occasions about how the squad he has put together is perceived. I’ve not checked his claim that the players we have brought in have over 900 Championship appearances between them, but it sounds about right to me and offers evidence that we have not been signing total unknowns who might sink or swim at this level.

Football finances at levels below the Premier League have changed markedly since the onset of Covid with one of the consequences being that the number and quality of players not having their contracts renewed has increased. What is not logical in thinking that we would have to pay transfer fees to bring in some of the players we’ve signed if we were still in the pre Covid world where clubs were more likely to renew the contracts of players than they are now?

Players with the experience and quality of some we’ve signed (eg Sawyers, Rinomhota, Allsop, Romeo, O’Dowda) only became available for nothing very rarely pre Covid when there was a lot more money in the game than there is now and it’s my view that it would have cost millions to bring the players in we have over the summer in the not too distant past - they aren’t the bunch of waifs and strays some accuse them of being.

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Players now run down their contracts to keep the last pay deal running to the end then try and get as much as they can from the new club knowing that they've saved on a transfer fee. Lonfg term their could be quite a saving for the clubs.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Players now run down their contracts to keep the last pay deal running to the end then try and get as much as they can from the new club knowing that they've saved on a transfer fee. Lonfg term their could be quite a saving for the clubs.

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only if the clubs are sensible.
in the past we've been anything but

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Originally Posted by Rjk

only if the clubs are sensible.
in the past we've been anything but

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It's a trend that suits most clubs now, we seemed to have turned a corner and appointed a good manager who is looking at a different profile buying younger players with good attitudes, and mostly not paying transfer fee's, fingers crossed it works and we stick to it!

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It's a trend that suits most clubs now, we seemed to have turned a corner and appointed a good manager who is looking at a different profile buying younger players with good attitudes, and mostly not paying transfer fee's, fingers crossed it works and we stick to it!

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yes a lot of clubs seem to have gotten a lot smarter in a short space of time.
I'm not convinced that it's anything other than on a superficial level with us though -yet. if we went on a bad run and lost a bunch of games and sacked the manager I can't say with confidence that we wouldn't turn to a Warnock style dinosaur of a manager and start making all the onld short term mistakes.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Players now run down their contracts to keep the last pay deal running to the end then try and get as much as they can from the new club knowing that they've saved on a transfer fee.

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Indeed, but this is hardly a new development. Names that immediately spring to mind are Joe Ledley, Steve McPhail and Junior Hoilett. It doesn't always work that way, though. I remember Andrew Taylor rejecting a new deal at Middlesbrough and taking a pay cut to join City back in 2011.

I think the situation this summer has appeared skewed because of the club's major changes in budget and direction. But I honestly don't believe any of the players City have signed would have been in different situations a few years back before Covid struck. It's just working out that Morison and Co are working a different part of the market than has been usual here under Tan.

Interesting view from Ince regarding Rinomhota:

"Ultimately, he wanted to stay. When I spoke to him, he said how he loved his time here and wanted to continue playing for me, but like with everything, if you can't compete with the financial package other teams are offering then it's hard to keep these types of players. As much as it shouldn't be about money, football is a short career and if clubs offer more than us, then players have a decision to make. I don't think Andy was a money person, he always put his heart and soul into each game, but we lost him, couldn't afford to keep him and we have got to move forward."

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Interesting view from Ince regarding Rinomhota:

"Ultimately, he wanted to stay. When I spoke to him, he said how he loved his time here and wanted to continue playing for me, but like with everything, if you can't compete with the financial package other teams are offering then it's hard to keep these types of players. As much as it shouldn't be about money, football is a short career and if clubs offer more than us, then players have a decision to make. I don't think Andy was a money person, he always put his heart and soul into each game, but we lost him, couldn't afford to keep him and we have got to move forward."

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aren't Reading under severe restrictions about how much they can offer in wages as part of the deal they agreed with the FA

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Originally Posted by Rjk

aren't Reading under severe restrictions about how much they can offer in wages as part of the deal they agreed with the FA

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Possibly, but I don't know to be honest. Ince was also saying City outbid them on the fees being paid to West Brom for Kipre's loan (Reading were apparently in talks with him).

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Possibly, but I don't know to be honest. Ince was also saying City outbid them on the fees being paid to West Brom for Kipre's loan (Reading were apparently in talks with him).

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I think they're capped at something like 12k average salary.
we probably arent too different to that tbh but we probably have a bit more flexibility

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Interesting view from Ince regarding Rinomhota:

"Ultimately, he wanted to stay. When I spoke to him, he said how he loved his time here and wanted to continue playing for me, but like with everything, if you can't compete with the financial package other teams are offering then it's hard to keep these types of players. As much as it shouldn't be about money, football is a short career and if clubs offer more than us, then players have a decision to make. I don't think Andy was a money person, he always put his heart and soul into each game, but we lost him, couldn't afford to keep him and we have got to move forward."

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The Kipre winge sounds more plausible - that WBA wanted the biggest loan fee they could get and Cardiff were able and willing to pay more than Reading. Whether Kipre was really as in love with Reading as Ince claims I doubt. He seems very happy now!

On Rinonhota Ince says at the same time that he was not interested in money, and that Cardiff seduced him away with a bigger wage offer! I suspect we were able to offer a slightly higher wage than Reading, but from the interviews with Rinomhota when he signed it seems that money was not the main motivation.

He was attracted by Cardiff, by 'the project' and by Steve Morison - more than Reading, the relegation scrap and Paul Ince!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

The Kipre winge sounds more plausible - that WBA wanted the biggest loan fee they could get and Cardiff were able and willing to pay more than Reading. Whether Kipre was really as in love with Reading as Ince claims I doubt. He seems very happy now!

On Rinonhota Ince says at the same time that he was not interested in money, and that Cardiff seduced him away with a bigger wage offer! I suspect we were able to offer a slightly higher wage than Reading, but from the interviews with Rinomhota when he signed it seems that money was not the main motivation.

He was attracted by Cardiff, by 'the project' and by Steve Morison - more than Reading, the relegation scrap and Paul Ince!

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Not sure why Paul Ince is so upset really, he tried to ensure his son Tom Ince went to a club who paid him the most money.