Interesting quote from a pro-Leave Tory

Earlier, in Parliament, one pro-Leave Tory, who worked closely with Michael Gove and the whole Vote Leave team, said: "We weren't meant to win. That line, 'you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off', it's true. The plan was to run the Remain side close enough to scare the EU into bigger concessions. None of us thought we were ever going to win. With the possible exception of Dominic Cummings, who just wanted to drive a car into the Camerons' living room. It's all such a mess. I want a second referendum now."




From Gary Gibbons' Breaking Point, Brexit Diary (July 14)

https://twitter.com/GaryGibbonBlog

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Originally Posted by lardy

Earlier, in Parliament, one pro-Leave Tory, who worked closely with Michael Gove and the whole Vote Leave team, said: "We weren't meant to win. That line, 'you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off', it's true. The plan was to run the Remain side close enough to scare the EU into bigger concessions. None of us thought we were ever going to win. With the possible exception of Dominic Cummings, who just wanted to drive a car into the Camerons' living room. It's all such a mess. I want a second referendum now."




From Gary Gibbons' Breaking Point, Brexit Diary (July 14)

https://twitter.com/GaryGibbonBlog

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I think its deeper than that .

To me It all feels a little orchestrated ,with the inner sanctum of the right wing Tories ceasing a long term opportunity to kill of a few threats from UKIP , appease/kill some of the the right in the party , isolate Labour as they appear to be pro Europe and migration, Isolate Gove , kill off Boris leadership attempt ,without completely isolating him , get rid of both Cameron and Osborne , looks like they have cleverly delivered them on all of their objectives , must be secretly giggling to themselves .

I'm not sure that a second referendum would have a different result

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I'm not sure that a second referendum would have a different result

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I think there would be an even stronger Leave vote

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Originally Posted by tommy31

I think there would be an even stronger Leave vote

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I'm not sure about that

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I think its deeper than that .

To me It all feels a little orchestrated ,with the inner sanctum of the right wing Tories ceasing a long term opportunity to kill of a few threats from UKIP , appease/kill some of the the right in the party , isolate Labour as they appear to be pro Europe and migration, Isolate Gove , kill off Boris leadership attempt ,without completely isolating him , get rid of both Cameron and Osborne , looks like they have cleverly delivered them on all of their objectives , must be secretly giggling to themselves .

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Think you're on point with much of that.

One thing the Tories do effectively is push their leaders before the public do and therefore save face for the party. I'm too young to remember the Thatcher era with any level of depth so I can't compare with her peak, but I've personally never seen the Tories sow up Westminster so dominantly.

Certainly UKIP was a conservative movement, you only have to visit their wiki page to see that. It might pay for the Tories to have that project stay alive. It seems UKIP can play the "hard truths" card and do the dirty work to save face for the main Conservative party. It Conservative re-brand also paves the way for entrenched Labourites to switch sides with easier self justification. UKIP might be needed as a coalition for for Tories if there is a close election. UKIP can challenge in some left strong holds where the Tories can't.

Labour need to seriously listen to the electorate on the Brexit issues, but I suspect they'll be so divided and too pig headed as a collective to actually adapt to the new climate in time for the next GE.

Lib Dems have disgraced themselves on Brexit in my view. They've always been the pro democracy party in my eyes which is why they've had my vote. To now campaign on a second referendum (which would be wildly unsuccessful and a national embarrassment), shows that they are anti-democratic.

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Originally Posted by tommy31

I think there would be an even stronger Leave vote

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Agree Tommy. Remains power play was predicting an apocalypse for the economy, the markets seem to be showing a lot of confidence in an independant Britain. Surely this could only strengthen once there was more certainty down the line.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

Agree Tommy. Remains power play was predicting an apocalypse for the economy, the markets seem to be showing a lot of confidence in an independant Britain. Surely this could only strengthen once there was more certainty down the line.

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Is not the reason I would have given.

The Leave vote wasnt won because the economy was going to be better out of the EU. it was won on immigration. Feelings towards that havent changed, and have probably gotten even more extreme.

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Originally Posted by tommy31

I think there would be an even stronger Leave vote

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Interesting. What do you base that opinion on?

We all move in different circles and it's difficult to have an overview regarding this matter - and perhaps a reputable poll could give us that.

Personally, I do know a few people who stated that their vote was a form of protest and that they were taken aback at the result and regretted their action.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

Agree Tommy. Remains power play was predicting an apocalypse for the economy, the markets seem to be showing a lot of confidence in an independant Britain. Surely this could only strengthen once there was more certainty down the line.

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Surely it depends on what becomes certain.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Surely it depends on what becomes certain.

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Not necessarily. Markets need certainty of many different forms. Less trades take place on unpredictable markets which is why they are more volitile. Good traders tend to stay clear of speculating on volatile markets altogether.

My post Brexit opinion, which is vastly more optimistic than before the referendum, is that Britain could be prosperous in many different avenues. In or out or half in/out. I even think that the markets could have a lot more faith in an independent Britain than a bureaucratic and technocratic EU in the medium term.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I think its deeper than that .

To me It all feels a little orchestrated ,with the inner sanctum of the right wing Tories ceasing a long term opportunity to kill of a few threats from UKIP , appease/kill some of the the right in the party , isolate Labour as they appear to be pro Europe and migration, Isolate Gove , kill off Boris leadership attempt ,without completely isolating him , get rid of both Cameron and Osborne , looks like they have cleverly delivered them on all of their objectives , must be secretly giggling to themselves .

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I guess it is easy to 'cleverly secretly deliver on all their objectives', if you make them up after they have already happened.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

I think its deeper than that .

To me It all feels a little orchestrated ,with the inner sanctum of the right wing Tories ceasing a long term opportunity to kill of a few threats from UKIP , appease/kill some of the the right in the party , isolate Labour as they appear to be pro Europe and migration, Isolate Gove , kill off Boris leadership attempt ,without completely isolating him , get rid of both Cameron and Osborne , looks like they have cleverly delivered them on all of their objectives , must be secretly giggling to themselves .

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You're not the first poster to suggest it is all part of a successful plan. I would say that what we saw in the weeks after the vote was the Tories with their pants down. Boris' face the morning after, the speed at which some of the pledges were backed away from; this was all genuine cluelessness. They were not prepared to win the vote at all, the blustering of the Brexit secretary demonstrates this.


I can see a situation where the UK is stronger long-term for leaving the EU. But not under the Tories. I wouldn't trust them to do and say the right things for the country early on, where it is most crucial. Labour are not in any kind of shape to run a country either, let alone one that is in this kind of position. Maybe leaving could be the right thing but I think it's the wrong time.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

Think you're on point with much of that.

One thing the Tories do effectively is push their leaders before the public do and therefore save face for the party. I'm too young to remember the Thatcher era with any level of depth so I can't compare with her peak, but I've personally never seen the Tories sow up Westminster so dominantly.

Certainly UKIP was a conservative movement, you only have to visit their wiki page to see that. It might pay for the Tories to have that project stay alive. It seems UKIP can play the "hard truths" card and do the dirty work to save face for the main Conservative party. It Conservative re-brand also paves the way for entrenched Labourites to switch sides with easier self justification. UKIP might be needed as a coalition for for Tories if there is a close election. UKIP can challenge in some left strong holds where the Tories can't.

Labour need to seriously listen to the electorate on the Brexit issues, but I suspect they'll be so divided and too pig headed as a collective to actually adapt to the new climate in time for the next GE.

Lib Dems have disgraced themselves on Brexit in my view. They've always been the pro democracy party in my eyes which is why they've had my vote. To now campaign on a second referendum (which would be wildly unsuccessful and a national embarrassment), shows that they are anti-democratic.

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How would holding another vote be anti democratic? Whatever the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

Think you're on point with much of that.

One thing the Tories do effectively is push their leaders before the public do and therefore save face for the party. I'm too young to remember the Thatcher era with any level of depth so I can't compare with her peak, but I've personally never seen the Tories sow up Westminster so dominantly.

Certainly UKIP was a conservative movement, you only have to visit their wiki page to see that. It might pay for the Tories to have that project stay alive. It seems UKIP can play the "hard truths" card and do the dirty work to save face for the main Conservative party. It Conservative re-brand also paves the way for entrenched Labourites to switch sides with easier self justification. UKIP might be needed as a coalition for for Tories if there is a close election. UKIP can challenge in some left strong holds where the Tories can't.

Labour need to seriously listen to the electorate on the Brexit issues, but I suspect they'll be so divided and too pig headed as a collective to actually adapt to the new climate in time for the next GE.

Lib Dems have disgraced themselves on Brexit in my view. They've always been the pro democracy party in my eyes which is why they've had my vote. To now campaign on a second referendum (which would be wildly unsuccessful and a national embarrassment), shows that they are anti-democratic.

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My problem is I'm hooked on " House of Cards" on Netflix, if half of the ruthless , pragmatism, and manipulation for power is correct , wow , its a mad world In politics .

Its about agendas behind the doors of power pulling the strings of leaders , who are just puppets and victims, wonder what goes on when the 1922 committee meet or the higher officials within Momentum ??

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Originally Posted by life on mars

It all feels a little orchestrated ,with the inner sanctum of the right wing Tories ceasing a long term opportunity to kill of a few threats from UKIP , appease/kill some of the the right in the party , isolate Labour as they appear to be pro Europe and migration, Isolate Gove , kill off Boris leadership attempt ,without completely isolating him , get rid of both Cameron and Osborne , looks like they have cleverly delivered them on all of their objectives , must be secretly giggling to themselves .

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It's my feeling that Gove was a Trojan horse, and probably a few others too. He took control to guide the process, which obviously backfired. I also think the Johnson backstabbing was a prearranged Plan B, as May waltzed into power unopposed.

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Originally Posted by tommy31

I think there would be an even stronger Leave vote

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No polls conducted since the referendum back up that prediction.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

Agree Tommy. Remains power play was predicting an apocalypse for the economy, the markets seem to be showing a lot of confidence in an independant Britain. Surely this could only strengthen once there was more certainty down the line.

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The thing is that there won't be much change in the economy until Article 50 is triggered.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I never understood the reason why we have to have uncontrolled movement of people in order to have the free import / export of goods and services - other than to further the deeper political integration of EU countries. We want trade, we like to have a standard set of rules re health / safety etc - we just dont want you moving into our bed.

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Do you welcome restrictions on movement of UK nationals within Europe, stricter controls over who is allowed to leave, work and study there?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Do you welcome restrictions on movement of UK nationals within Europe, stricter controls over who is allowed to leave, work and study there?

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Could it include 500,000 or a million jobless Brits turning up too?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Could it include 500,000 or a million jobless Brits turning up too?

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Do you mean those retiring on the continent? Yes, of course. Force them to stay here.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Do you mean those retiring on the continent? Yes, of course. Force them to stay here.

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No, I mean a large group of jobless Brits who fancy going walkabout, doing odd jobs for peanuts, etc.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

No, I mean a large group of jobless Brits who fancy going walkabout, doing odd jobs for peanuts, etc.

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Auf Wiedersehen Pet :hehe: