Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”
Is the part that resonated with me.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
The man should move to Moscow as Putins advisor , what folk don't get is Russians smell weakness and exploit it and Corbyn's remarks don't stand up as the West watched Russia annex Crimea didn't offer any war like resistance , Ukraine agreed to remove nuclear arms with NATO persuasion, all in the name of so called peace, not war , that worked out well Jezzie 😉
Nothing he says resonates with me and he's now flexing his ego again .
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
It's easy to preach peace but it is dependent upon everyone having a peaceful mindset. The reality is that Putin invaded Ukraine and tried to take not only the parts he had a very very dubious claim over, but also the capital in Kiev.
Are we really supposed to stop and watch him? Is that peace?
I agree that we (as the west) need to be wary, we can't go all gung ho, and we haven't, but we can't do nothing.
Corbyn just sounds like Putins mouthpiece here, which is something he was often accused of.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's easy to preach peace but it is dependent upon everyone having a peaceful mindset. The reality is that Putin invaded Ukraine and tried to take not only the parts he had a very very dubious claim over, but also the capital in Kiev.
Are we really supposed to stop and watch him? Is that peace?
I agree that we (as the west) need to be wary, we can't go all gung ho, and we haven't, but we can't do nothing.
Corbyn just sounds like Putins mouthpiece here, which is something he was often accused of.
Indeed. Russia occupies and/or controls parts of Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. It's naive to think that talking peace with Putin has any effect whatsoever.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
We will have to talk about peace and reconciliation at some point. The alternative is perpetual war. Escalation is unthinkable. You don't have to agree with or like Putin to see that is our only option.
So I'm concluding from the responses that anyone who talks of peace with Putin is naive. Thanks for that guys. War it is then. I think that anyone who talks of 'stopping Putin' should be prepared to take up arms themselves and fight. They should know that their own country is likely to be destroyed or crippled in the process and that their children, family and loved ones will likely die.
Saying things like Corbyn sounds like Putin's mouthpiece is unhelpful. I also realise that those of us who want to avoid an escalation of conflict will be shouted down as Putin appeasers. There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to have a sensible and mature discussion about this if this is a litmus test of people's feelings on this board.
MEP Clare Daly- speech from 23 Jun 2022
https://youtu.be/KQ76HJGOklU
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
I agree with Corbyn about the need to talk peace, about the historic imperialist role of NATO, and some of the dangers of pouring arms into Ukraine.
The Ukraine war has been a political 'get out of gaol' card for a lot of western leaders (especially Johnson until the cumulative effect of his lies became too much) and a cash machine for the arms industry.
But the key fact remains that Putin chose to invade. Ukraine is not and was not a model liberal democracy and there were abuses and some atrocities in the Donbas after 2014, but the war was Putin's decision. Putin is a right-wing authoritarian gangster, backed by the Russian mafia and a corrupted military, and reading from the Russian nationalist playbook. For all the finger pointing at Ukranian ultra nationalists and neo-Nazis like the Azov Battalion, Putin has promoted and used Russian groupings with similar politics. Russia must be stopped one way or another.
It looks as if the Ukraine war is settling into a stalemate - with both sides toying at times with the idea that they can win. Neither side will win. Short term sanctions have failed, but long term pressure on Putin might be effective. It is time for diplomacy and negotiations not military fantacists.
But the characterisation of Corbyn as Putin's mouthpiece is laughable. I think he is sometimes naive but he is consistent. He has called out Putin from day one. He has no sympathy with or connection to the Putin regime. Unlike Blair, Johnson and dozens of other western leaders who cozied up to Putin, Corbyn was always on the other side of the fence.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I agree with Corbyn about the need to talk peace, about the historic imperialist role of NATO, and some of the dangers of pouring arms into Ukraine.
The Ukraine war has been a political 'get out of gaol' card for a lot of western leaders (especially Johnson until the cumulative effect of his lies became too much) and a cash machine for the arms industry.
But the key fact remains that Putin chose to invade. Ukraine is not and was not a model liberal democracy and there were abuses and some atrocities in the Donbas after 2014, but the war was Putin's decision. Putin is a right-wing authoritarian gangster, backed by the Russian mafia and a corrupted military, and reading from the Russian nationalist playbook. For all the finger pointing at Ukranian ultra nationalists and neo-Nazis like the Azov Battalion, Putin has promoted and used Russian groupings with similar politics. Russia must be stopped one way or another.
It looks as if the Ukraine war is settling into a stalemate - with both sides toying at times with the idea that they can win. Neither side will win. Short term sanctions have failed, but long term pressure on Putin might be effective. It is time for diplomacy and negotiations not military fantacists.
But the characterisation of Corbyn as Putin's mouthpiece is laughable. I think he is sometimes naive but he is consistent. He has called out Putin from day one. He has no sympathy with or connection to the Putin regime. Unlike Blair, Johnson and dozens of other western leaders who cozied up to Putin, Corbyn was always on the other side of the fence.
Thanks for that post Jon. Eloquently written and well argued. The line that makes me twitchy is
Quote:
Russia must be stopped one way or another.
There are many interpretations of what that means of course and what it entails.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
We will have to talk about peace and reconciliation at some point. The alternative is perpetual war. Escalation is unthinkable. You don't have to agree with or like Putin to see that is our only option.
So I'm concluding from the responses that anyone who talks of peace with Putin is naive. Thanks for that guys. War it is then. I think that anyone who talks of 'stopping Putin' should be prepared to take up arms themselves and fight. They should know that their own country is likely to be destroyed or crippled in the process and that their children, family and loved ones will likely die.
Saying things like Corbyn sounds like Putin's mouthpiece is unhelpful. I also realise that those of us who want to avoid an escalation of conflict will be shouted down as Putin appeasers. There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to have a sensible and mature discussion about this if this is a litmus test of people's feelings on this board.
MEP Clare Daly- speech from 23 Jun 2022
https://youtu.be/KQ76HJGOklU
I don't think anyone is suggesting perpetual war is preferable to peace talks. The point is that Putin's Russia would have occupied the whole of The Ukraine if he had not met stiff resistance and he will only come to the table to talk peace when he sees fit - and probably when he decides that war has go to the stage where there is an impasse and when he decides to settle for the chunk of Ukraine that he controls at that juncture. He is unlikely to hand back the Crimea, parts of the Donbas and other areas, of course.
Zelensky is in the difficult position of having to send troops to war at present and when Putin decides to settle for what he has, Zelensky has the very difficult task of effectively letting part of his country go.
I work for a charity that supports Ukranian refugees here in Somerset/Devon and the Ukranians I meet are currently in favour of resistance to Russia as things stand - so it's not a case of sitting here in the UK and unilaterally deciding that war should continue as it doesn't affect us personally.
The peace, when it comes, will be down to pragmatism by Putin in respect of what he can realistically achieve in the conflict. It won't be down to western politicians appealing to him on humantarian grounds or by withdrawing logistical support to Ukraine's armed services.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
With your personal involvement working for a refugee charity TBG and first hand input from people directly involved in the conflict, it means I'm very grateful for that input and it's very enlightening. I also admire the work you are doing and your commitment.
I'm still on the fence as to whether people are against peace talks because the West, so far, have done very little to broker peace imo and this view and rhetoric has been at the forefront of one of the Tory Party leadership contenders. It's why I feel that a counter argument from Corbyn, for example, helps to balance things somewhat.
I totally agree that peace will be down to pragmatism and not humanitarianism on Putin's part.
It still doesn't sit comfortably with me to endlessly supply arms to a conflict that has to end with talks and negotiations.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
With your personal involvement working for a refugee charity TBG and first hand input from people directly involved in the conflict, it means I'm very grateful for that input and it's very enlightening. I also admire the work you are doing and your commitment.
I'm still on the fence as to whether people are against peace talks because the West, so far, have done very little to broker peace imo and this view and rhetoric has been at the forefront of one of the Tory Party leadership contenders. It's why I feel that a counter argument from Corbyn, for example, helps to balance things somewhat.
I totally agree that peace will be down to pragmatism and not humanitarianism on Putin's part.
It still doesn't sit comfortably with me to endlessly supply arms to a conflict that has to end with talks and negotiations.
I think you should also take note that Putin imprisons and/or poisons opposition figures and former allies within Russia and outlaws alternative news outlets that may tell a different tale to the that of the state media (which is not allowed to use the word 'war', it seems). He rose to power from the KGB and is ruthless in the extreme. Withdrawing military support to Ukraine will only result in Russia walking away with a bigger chunk of Ukraine than they will eventually settle for if support is maintained. Weakening Ukraine's defences are not the answer. Negotiating from a position of weakness won't work.
By the way, the Falklands War would have lasted longer had the US, who were supposedly a neutral party, not been supporting the UK with intelligence behind the scenes.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Edit: Reply to TBG (I should have replied to the post with quote but got distracted!)
I get what you're saying. I don't want you or anyone else to think I have any sympathy for Putin and that I don't understand his background or ruthlessness. Neither do I think he is stupid. I think he's been many steps ahead of the West for far too long. It's shocking to discover just how much Russian influence there has been and the use of fake news and troll farming has been known for some time. We can't abdicate our responsibility in allowing him to become bolder and feel stronger to the point where he brazenly invaded Ukraine..
I'm not a pacifist. I'm very willing to fight for what I believe in. Neither am I entrenched in a polar opposite view and am swayed by intelligent debators like yourself to adjust my thinking and adapt to complexities. I don't post simply to take a contrary view, as you know, and I'm deeply appreciative of considered responses and views of people like your good self.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I get what you're saying. I don't want you or anyone else to think I have any sympathy for Putin and that I don't understand his background or ruthlessness. Neither do I think he is stupid. I think he's been many steps ahead of the West for far too long. It's shocking to discover just how much Russian influence there has been and the use of fake news and troll farming has been known for some time. We can't abdicate our responsibility in allowing him to become bolder and feel stronger to the point where he brazenly invaded Ukraine..
I'm not a pacifist. I'm very willing to fight for what I believe in. Neither am I entrenched in a polar opposite view and am swayed by intelligent debators like yourself to adjust my thinking and adapt to complexities. I don't post simply to take a contrary view, as you know, and I'm deeply appreciative of considered responses and views of people like your good self.
You're not a bad egg, old fruit.
By the way, listen to this podcast series about how the UK and its dependencies effectively aided Russian oligarchs et al to launder money...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017t8j
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
You're not a bad egg, old fruit.
By the way, listen to this podcast series about how the UK and its dependencies effectively aided Russian oligarchs et al to launder money......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0017t8j
I will, thanks. I've just got Wiggins to dust off a lovely Port from the cellar and instructed him to send it to you accompanied by a fine wedge of Stilton.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I will, thanks. I've just got Wiggins to dust off a lovely Port from the cellar and instructed him to send it to you accompanied by a fine wedge of Stilton.
Splendid. Can you ensure that he sends it in a letterbox bottle? https://www.letterboxgifts.co.uk/pro...erlot-red-wine
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
He's decanting it as I write.
They're brilliant aren't they?! I had some medication posted in a letterbox container the other day. Seriously clever stuff. Wish I 'd thought of it!
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
We will have to talk about peace and reconciliation at some point. The alternative is perpetual war. Escalation is unthinkable. You don't have to agree with or like Putin to see that is our only option.
So I'm concluding from the responses that anyone who talks of peace with Putin is naive. Thanks for that guys. War it is then. I think that anyone who talks of 'stopping Putin' should be prepared to take up arms themselves and fight. They should know that their own country is likely to be destroyed or crippled in the process and that their children, family and loved ones will likely die.
Saying things like Corbyn sounds like Putin's mouthpiece is unhelpful. I also realise that those of us who want to avoid an escalation of conflict will be shouted down as Putin appeasers. There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to have a sensible and mature discussion about this if this is a litmus test of people's feelings on this board.
MEP Clare Daly- speech from 23 Jun 2022
https://youtu.be/KQ76HJGOklU
Agree with you there. This war is also coming at huge cost to the British public
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. “We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”
Guys a fecking genius...why wasn't he around when it all kicked of in Afghanistan...would be been over in 5 minutes
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I don't think anyone is suggesting perpetual war is preferable to peace talks. The point is that Putin's Russia would have occupied the whole of The Ukraine if he had not met stiff resistance and he will only come to the table to talk peace when he sees fit - and probably when he decides that war has go to the stage where there is an impasse and when he decides to settle for the chunk of Ukraine that he controls at that juncture. He is unlikely to hand back the Crimea, parts of the Donbas and other areas, of course.
Zelensky is in the difficult position of having to send troops to war at present and when Putin decides to settle for what he has, Zelensky has the very difficult task of effectively letting part of his country go.
I work for a charity that supports Ukranian refugees here in Somerset/Devon and the Ukranians I meet are currently in favour of resistance to Russia as things stand - so it's not a case of sitting here in the UK and unilaterally deciding that war should continue as it doesn't affect us personally.
The peace, when it comes, will be down to pragmatism by Putin in respect of what he can realistically achieve in the conflict. It won't be down to western politicians appealing to him on humantarian grounds or by withdrawing logistical support to Ukraine's armed services.
I don't understand her POV..how would the ukraine be able to join the EU if it was part of Russia?
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I agree with Corbyn about the need to talk peace, about the historic imperialist role of NATO, and some of the dangers of pouring arms into Ukraine.
The Ukraine war has been a political 'get out of gaol' card for a lot of western leaders (especially Johnson until the cumulative effect of his lies became too much) and a cash machine for the arms industry.
But the key fact remains that Putin chose to invade. Ukraine is not and was not a model liberal democracy and there were abuses and some atrocities in the Donbas after 2014, but the war was Putin's decision. Putin is a right-wing authoritarian gangster, backed by the Russian mafia and a corrupted military, and reading from the Russian nationalist playbook. For all the finger pointing at Ukranian ultra nationalists and neo-Nazis like the Azov Battalion, Putin has promoted and used Russian groupings with similar politics. Russia must be stopped one way or another.
It looks as if the Ukraine war is settling into a stalemate - with both sides toying at times with the idea that they can win. Neither side will win. Short term sanctions have failed, but long term pressure on Putin might be effective. It is time for diplomacy and negotiations not military fantacists.
But the characterisation of Corbyn as Putin's mouthpiece is laughable. I think he is sometimes naive but he is consistent. He has called out Putin from day one. He has no sympathy with or connection to the Putin regime. Unlike Blair, Johnson and dozens of other western leaders who cozied up to Putin, Corbyn was always on the other side of the fence.
Why must Russia be stopped one way or the other? Thèy are no direct threat to us. What you mean is Russia must succumb to American imperialism.
Re: Some Sense From A British Politician At Last
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lither_1927
Why must Russia be stopped one way or the other? Thèy are no direct threat to us. What you mean is Russia must succumb to American imperialism.
No I don't.
