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Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
A STATUE of a “sadistic” 19th century slave owner will be removed from Cardiff City Hall following a vote from councillors.
The marble statue of Sir Thomas Picton has stood in the civic building since 1916, as part of the Heroes of Wales collection.
He was the most senior officer killed at the Battle of Waterloo, and was also known for executing a dozen slaves while governor of Trinidad.
In one instance, he authorised the illegal torture of 14-year-old Louisa Calderon, and while he was found guilty he was never sentenced.
After the toppling of the statue of Edward Colston in Bristol, Cardiff Council has faced calls for its removal by Black Lives Matter protesters.
Cardiff councillors voted 57 in favour of removing Picton’s statue, five against, and nine abstentations.
It will be covered up while Cardiff Council seeks permission from the Welsh government to remove it, as the City Hall is a Grade I listed building.
https://www.voice-online.co.uk/news/...iff-city-hall/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9636046.html
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
A STATUE of a “sadistic” 19th century slave owner will be removed from Cardiff City Hall following a vote from councillors.
The marble statue of Sir Thomas Picton has stood in the civic building since 1916, as part of the Heroes of Wales collection.
He was the most senior officer killed at the Battle of Waterloo, and was also known for executing a dozen slaves while governor of Trinidad.
In one instance, he authorised the illegal torture of 14-year-old Louisa Calderon, and while he was found guilty he was never sentenced.
After the toppling of the statue of Edward Colston in Bristol, Cardiff Council has faced calls for its removal by Black Lives Matter protesters.
Cardiff councillors voted 57 in favour of removing Picton’s statue, five against, and nine abstentations.
It will be covered up while Cardiff Council seeks permission from the Welsh government to remove it, as the City Hall is a Grade I listed building.
https://www.voice-online.co.uk/news/...iff-city-hall/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9636046.html
Good news, and it'll upset the racists and bigots, eve better news.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Good news, and it'll upset the racists and bigots, eve better news.
This ^^^
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Isn't there a Picton Place somewhere in the city?
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Even back then why would they put up a statue of someone they know has done all that stuff? Now we'll have brain dead idiots crying over something they weren't bothered about before they didn't know about it but now it's the most important thing in the world to whine over on social media.. ****ing numpties.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
What about the slave traders, still alive.
Sir Phillip Green, for starters
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
yep..there's loads of slavery going on today. I don't give a feck about the statue or any statue tbh..But once again people are focusing on the past and not fixing the problems that are here right now
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
He wasnt a very nice guy let's be honest
If leeds city council were happy to take down statues of jimmy saville then I think it's fair enough that picton gets the chop
Billy Boston would be a nice replacement
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Isn't there a Picton Place somewhere in the city?
I think it's off Cowbridge Road East in Canton, just before the 'Happy Gathering'.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
I have some sympathy for the guy.
Apparently, as a child, he was badly picked on.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
What about the slave traders, still alive.
Sir Phillip Green, for starters
That Teflon-coated scumbag still retains his knighthood, despite having a long list of appalling behaviours that is typical of his sort:
Paying slave wages (a misnomer, I know) to his sweatshop workers, awful pay and conditions for his employees, massive tax avoidance, stealing from the pension fund, numerous sexual assault allegations, etc, etc.
But the system is built for people like him, so he remains protected by it. 🤬
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Good news, and it'll upset the racists and bigots, eve better news.
Agree. But but but damn lefties erasing our history etc etc etc.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Apart from his ownership and mistreatment of slaves he is chiefly remembered for his exploits under Wellington. he fought in many engagements, displaying great bravery. Wellington called rough foul mouthed and irascible. He was killed in 1815 fighting at the Battle of Waterloo, leading, with only his rolled up umbrella, a crucial bayonet charge in which his division stopped d'Erlon's corps' attack against Wellingtons centre. He was the most senior officer to die at Waterloo.
Seems that a fair number of folk in the past that were heroes of their times also had a very dark side
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
I do wonder how many councillors deep down voted to remove out of fear of being labelled a racist
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I do wonder how many councillors deep down voted to remove out of fear of being labelled a racist
Quite, and I wonder how many councilors deep down voted to keep out of fear of being labelled a lefty snowflake.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I do wonder how many councillors deep down voted to remove out of fear of being labelled a racist
Begs the question “who had heard of this fella, till they brought him to light”
He could have stood there for all eternity, with people walking past, none the wiser, who the f uck he was.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
Begs the question “who had heard of this fella, till they brought him to light”
He could have stood there for all eternity, with people walking past, none the wiser, who the f uck he was.
The same thing could have been said in 1916 when the statue was put up.
With most of these contentious statues they were erected long after their subject died and reflect the attitudes and values of the people who put them up, not the contemporaries of the one in stone or marble. Taking them down is the same - a reflection on changed attitudes and values.
If it was a painting of Picton (or Colston, or Confederate generals) there would have been very little reaction if it had been put into storage and something else hung in its place. That happens all the time. For some reason some people think statues should be for ever.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Should we all hand ourselves in, as murderous scum ????
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...ience.research
The road where I live, is someone’s surname, I bet if you went through history, it could be associated to a bad person. Should it be changed ????
Where do people want to draw the line ????
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Why not leave the statue where it is, but leave it boarded up with a plaque on the boarding explaining his full history?
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
A STATUE of a “sadistic” 19th century slave owner will be removed from Cardiff City Hall following a vote from councillors.
The marble statue of Sir Thomas Picton has stood in the civic building since 1916, as part of the Heroes of Wales collection.
He was the most senior officer killed at the Battle of Waterloo, and was also known for executing a dozen slaves while governor of Trinidad.
In one instance, he authorised the illegal torture of 14-year-old Louisa Calderon, and while he was found guilty he was never sentenced.
After the toppling of the statue of Edward Colston in Bristol, Cardiff Council has faced calls for its removal by Black Lives Matter protesters.
Cardiff councillors voted 57 in favour of removing Picton’s statue, five against, and nine abstentations.
It will be covered up while Cardiff Council seeks permission from the Welsh government to remove it, as the City Hall is a Grade I listed building.
https://www.voice-online.co.uk/news/...iff-city-hall/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9636046.html
This means, of course, that all effigies of the God of the Bible should be removed from all public places as in Exodus 21 etc. God lays down the ground rules for this abhorrent practice which incidentally is stile rife in many parts of Africa and beyond. Nor should we forget the complicity of African rulers and chiefs who entered into contracts with slave traders to provide slaves for the Americas treating their own people as a natural resource for export. Suggested reading would be Hugh Thomas’ masterful work The Slave Trade.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bloop
Why not leave the statue where it is, but leave it boarded up with a plaque on the boarding explaining his full history?
That is an option. It was what community historians (many of them black) proposed in Liverpool (not boarded up - just left as is) for the place names associated with slavers. Keep the name but erect an information board (like a blue plaque to explain the story and context). I think there is a case for both approaches, but not for leaving these things up with no comment.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Let's be honest here
Loads of the people who argue for these statues to be left up dont do it because they want people to be educated , they dont want them protected from vandalism because it's part of history , they dont give a toss about future generations
They previously knew next to nothing about these despicable people
They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
That is an option. It was what community historians (many of them black) proposed in Liverpool (not boarded up - just left as is) for the place names associated with slavers. Keep the name but erect an information board (like a blue plaque to explain the story and context). I think there is a case for both approaches, but not for leaving these things up with no comment.
Taking them down without any continued education of the past isn’t a great option either (personal opinion). I fear if all the statues are removed and the past surrounding them is not then discussed the whole issue of educating all is lost. Out of sight, out of mind?
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
What about the slave traders, still alive.
Sir Phillip Green, for starters
indeed the moral outragers are wearing and using the goods third world countries make off the back of child labour and appalling work conditions , oh and even in Leicester where the authority’s of that have turned a blind eye to people working in enslaved conditions .
Modern slavery exists their lives matter too
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Taking them down without any continued education of the past isn’t a great option either (personal opinion). I fear if all the statues are removed and the past surrounding them is not then discussed the whole issue of educating all is lost. Out of sight, out of mind?
Absolutely, the whole point of history is to educate and in a lot of cases teach others not repeat the actions , leaving the statues with a full breakdown of how many lives were lost and why it was done , is far more educational than erasing its history .
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Absolutely, the whole point of history is to educate and in a lot of cases teach others not repeat the actions , leaving the statues with a full breakdown of how many lives were lost and why it was done , is far more educational than erasing its history .
Isn't that just going to teach people that if you want to be remembered and have a statue of yourself put up, you need to be responsible for X number of deaths?
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
light up the darkness
Apart from his ownership and mistreatment of slaves he is chiefly remembered for his exploits under Wellington. he fought in many engagements, displaying great bravery. Wellington called rough foul mouthed and irascible. He was killed in 1815 fighting at the Battle of Waterloo, leading, with only his rolled up umbrella, a crucial bayonet charge in which his division stopped d'Erlon's corps' attack against Wellingtons centre. He was the most senior officer to die at Waterloo.
Seems that a fair number of folk in the past that were heroes of their times also had a very dark side
I'm not at all experienced in the military but even I know you need something with a bit more firepower than an umbrella if you're running towards the enemy.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
I'm not at all experienced in the military but even I know you need something with a bit more firepower than an umbrella if you're running towards the enemy.
Attachment 3983
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Let's be honest here
Loads of the people who argue for these statues to be left up dont do it because they want people to be educated , they dont want them protected from vandalism because it's part of history , they dont give a toss about future generations
They previously knew next to nothing about these despicable people
They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple
I originally didn’t want to see it removed and wasn’t to do (in my opinion) with racism. I like seeing statues for its aesthetic values. Whenever me and the mrs go away I always take note, pictures and read the plaques of the history of the statues. Always liked going through Cathays park to go past the statue there. If Picton was removed what would be there instead? And at what cost to the public.
When it’s historical, it’s so far removed from life, for me the good and the bad doesn’t come into it? Would I look and read a statue of Genghis Khan, or Nero? Absolutely. I can still be disgusted by the person whilst in awe of the history behind it. I’ve been to the killing fields in Cambodia and sat and looked at the wall of skulls. It’s fascinating and yet it’s disgusting. For me if it’s contextualised, it’s different. It’s so far removed from my life I don’t believe it does anything than just reflect history.
Then I’d try to think how I’d feel if it was more recent history. Take Michael Jackson. One of the most brilliant musicians of all time, he tackled climate change 20 years before most, countless charities like aids, cancer but a wrong’un it seems. Would I be happy with a statue of him up now? Absolutely not. It’s complicated where people remove themselves from the bad that didn’t affect them. Ironically a staunch BLM supporter Dave Chappelle, kind of gave support to MJ in his sticks and stones special. Admittedly MJ was never convicted.
My personal view is that these people because they don’t see or encounter racism, don’t fold that into the thinking. They just see it as a statue.
I’m not longer against the removal of the statue but I don’t want the thinking to become a tit-for-tat whataboutisms. Everything should be on merit but the parameters of what is merit is constantly shifting.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I originally didn’t want to see it removed and wasn’t to do (in my opinion) with racism. I like seeing statues for its aesthetic values. Whenever me and the mrs go away I always take note, pictures and read the plaques of the history of the statues. Always liked going through Cathays park to go past the statue there. If Picton was removed what would be there instead? And at what cost to the public.
When it’s historical, it’s so far removed from life, for me the good and the bad doesn’t come into it? Would I look and read a statue of Genghis Khan, or Nero? Absolutely. I can still be disgusted by the person whilst in awe of the history behind it. I’ve been to the killing fields in Cambodia and sat and looked at the wall of skulls. It’s fascinating and yet it’s disgusting. For me if it’s contextualised, it’s different. It’s so far removed from my life I don’t believe it does anything than just reflect history.
Then I’d try to think how I’d feel if it was more recent history. Take Michael Jackson. One of the most brilliant musicians of all time, he tackled climate change 20 years before most, countless charities like aids, cancer but a wrong’un it seems. Would I be happy with a statue of him up now? Absolutely not. It’s complicated where people remove themselves from the bad that didn’t affect them. Ironically a staunch BLM supporter Dave Chappelle, kind of gave support to MJ in his sticks and stones special. Admittedly MJ was never convicted.
My personal view is that these people because they don’t see or encounter racism, don’t fold that into the thinking. They just see it as a statue.
I’m not longer against the removal of the statue but I don’t want the thinking to become a tit-for-tat whataboutisms. Everything should be on merit but the parameters of what is merit is constantly shifting.
I agree with your thoughtful points and some others (including LoM's surprisingly!)
In the last Euro Qualifying campaign game in Budapest I went to Memento Park on the outskirts of the city. Fascinating place where many of the statues from the Soviet era that survived the wall coming down have been placed. It's curiosity factor is however placed in the context of the impact that era had on Hungary and its citizens so you are left in no doubt of the underlying evil the statues were trying to glorify.
Contextualising these statues either in their location or another as others have said seems as an appropriate response as their mothballing or destruction as public opinion or regimes change.
On the particular Picton statue it is interesting that there was seemingly no appetite to glorify him in the immediate aftermath of Waterloo. Perhaps even then the proximity of the Abolition of Slavery in Britain and his known sadistic acts were too close and well-known.
Rather a century later almost at the anniversary of his death at a time when the country was in the middle of another terrible continental war and his feats of valour were still remembered when his sins were forgotten did his statue get commissioned and erected. Perhaps in his case another century on is an appropriate time to consider he has had a good run at immortality given his treatment of others.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
“They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple”
What a strange thing to say ! Not worried about some poxy statue, but if you try and hide the past, HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE FUTURE
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
“They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple”
What a strange thing to say ! Not worried about some poxy statue, but if you try and hide the past, HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE FUTURE
To be fair, you don't need a statue to remember history.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
I just don't get the point. It wouldn't be put up today but it's there, he was indeed a war hero. Put a plaque next to it detailing the bad points if needed.
At least with it there it prompts conversation and people may look into him.
99.9% of people didn't know it was even there to be offended by.
If people are upset, offended or tormented by it every day then sure bring it down, personally I've never seen it or knew it was there.
So many figures from the past lived in far darker times than we do and did things that today are disgusting. It's not feasible to remove every statue, bust or mention of them from public view.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
light up the darkness
Apart from his ownership and mistreatment of slaves he is chiefly remembered for his exploits under Wellington. he fought in many engagements, displaying great bravery. Wellington called rough foul mouthed and irascible. He was killed in 1815 fighting at the Battle of Waterloo, leading, with only his rolled up umbrella, a crucial bayonet charge in which his division stopped d'Erlon's corps' attack against Wellingtons centre. He was the most senior officer to die at Waterloo.
Seems that a fair number of folk in the past that were heroes of their times also had a very dark side
Did he though? History is written by the victors.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
The Connecticut and Massachusetts colonies offered bounties for the heads of killed hostile Indians, and later for just their scalps, during the Pequot War in the 1630s;[15] Connecticut specifically reimbursed Mohegans for slaying the Pequot in 1637.[16] Four years later, the Dutch in New Amsterdam offered bounties for the heads of Raritans.[16] In 1643, the Iroquois attacked a group of Huron pelters and French carpenters near Montreal, killing and scalping three of the French.[17]
Do we go through history, picking out all the bad. ????
I don’t think any family would be left untarnished
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NYCBlue
Did he though? History is written by the victors.
SO SO TRUE.
Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeepster
SO SO TRUE.
Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.
I think it well known that Churchill was a horrible c*nt, no time for the man at all, bloke’s like him would drop the likes of us like a shithouse seat, horrible man.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
splott parker
I think it well known that Churchill was a horrible c*nt, no time for the man at all, bloke’s like him would drop the likes of us like a shithouse seat, horrible man.
On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pomeroy
On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.
And he was a cnut shot his own people and allies but it was only a small fault after all
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Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pomeroy
On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.
Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Thatcher etc were all colossal 20th century figures as well, these last few months have opened our eyes to a few monsters from the past with energy and intellect, it certainly hasn’t improved their standing in history. It’s as though, if you’re British, you’ve got to regard Churchill as some kind of hero, maybe other countries who didn’t have the English version of history have different views on the man.