Clive Tyldesley calls for co-commentators to receive training on racial stereotyping

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53239044

Ron Atkinson was the man

Wonder what that daft old racist is up to now ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Ron Atkinson was the man

Wonder what that daft old racist is up to now ?

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A paradox that - made a stupid, racist comment yet did far more for the cause of black players than many, many managers.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

A paradox that - made a stupid, racist comment yet did far more for the cause of black players than many, many managers.

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That may well be but he was a massive racist

Calling someone a fecking stupid lazy ****** is more than just a slip of the tongue

As was saying the chinese have a great contraception service ......the women are all ugly and look the same

And on celebrity big brother when one of the celebrities put a scarf around her face he said oh my god you are not going to bomb me are you ?

A right old racist git

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

That may well be but he was a massive racist

Calling someone a fecking stupid lazy ****** is more than just a slip of the tongue

As was saying the chinese have a great contraception service ......the women are all ugly and look the same

And on celebrity big brother when one of the celebrities put a scarf around her face he said oh my god you are not going to bomb me are you ?

A right old racist git

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That may well be but has been already posted he did a lot to promote black players in the late 70’s when racism was far more rife. Do you judge a man more on his actions than his words?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

That may well be but has been already posted he did a lot to promote black players in the late 70’s when racism was far more rife. Do you judge a man more on his actions than his words?

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Both

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Both

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Actions tend to weigh more though.

In the 70s with the backdrop of racism, it took balls for Atkinson to really push those black players - incredibly risky because if they'd flopped the backlash would have been immense. The gamble clearly paid off and had a massive, massive effect upon getting more black footballers into the game and also in changing and fighting racism amongst fans.

Have his actions had more benefit fighting racism than his stupid racist comments triggered racism? I'd say yes. Doesn't make his comments acceptable or excuse them.

As I said, quite the paradox. If Atkinson was a dyed in the wool NF style racist, then he'd have gone the safe route and not played Regis et al. Whilst the comments Sludge highlighted were clearly unacceptable, I've not heard of anyone within football citing examples of racism whist actively managing.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Actions tend to weigh more though.

In the 70s with the backdrop of racism, it took balls for Atkinson to really push those black players - incredibly risky because if they'd flopped the backlash would have been immense. The gamble clearly paid off and had a massive, massive effect upon getting more black footballers into the game and also in changing and fighting racism amongst fans.

Have his actions had more benefit fighting racism than his stupid racist comments triggered racism? I'd say yes. Doesn't make his comments acceptable or excuse them.

As I said, quite the paradox. If Atkinson was a dyed in the wool NF style racist, then he'd have gone the safe route and not played Regis et al. Whilst the comments Sludge highlighted were clearly unacceptable, I've not heard of anyone within football citing examples of racism whist actively managing.

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Whatever he did for black players it doesn't excuse him for making a deeply offensive comment about Desailly.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Whatever he did for black players it doesn't excuse him for making a deeply offensive comment about Desailly.

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No it doesn't, as I said.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Actions tend to weigh more though.

In the 70s with the backdrop of racism, it took balls for Atkinson to really push those black players - incredibly risky because if they'd flopped the backlash would have been immense. The gamble clearly paid off and had a massive, massive effect upon getting more black footballers into the game and also in changing and fighting racism amongst fans.

Have his actions had more benefit fighting racism than his stupid racist comments triggered racism? I'd say yes. Doesn't make his comments acceptable or excuse them.

As I said, quite the paradox. If Atkinson was a dyed in the wool NF style racist, then he'd have gone the safe route and not played Regis et al. Whilst the comments Sludge highlighted were clearly unacceptable, I've not heard of anyone within football citing examples of racism whist actively managing.

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Do you really believe that he was pusing those black players out of the goodness of his heart,or because he thought they could make HIM successful?

There is definitely a bias in how black players are described though, a lot of the time from people who would be shocked if anyone thought they were being racist.
When Naby Keita was signed from Leipzig he was variously described as being like Ngolo Kante or Patrick Vieira amongst others neither of whom he's really anything like as a player, the only similarity is he's black.
We have deep ingrained prejuduces about what black players can be and what they can do. Yaya Toure is another good example, always described predominantly as "powerful" when really he was phenomenally skillful. A premier league scout/analyst sais his game is most similar to Zinedine Zidane than anyone else, but you would never see that kind of comparison made.

American sports went through a similar learning curve - once upon a time quarterbacks were overwhelmingly white, but these days more and more black quarterbacks are coming through each year.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

That may well be but has been already posted he did a lot to promote black players in the late 70’s when racism was far more rife. Do you judge a man more on his actions than his words?

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It's all very well picking players because they are good enough for your team and therefore good for you but was he calling them lazy black ******s under his breath when they made a mistake ?

He wasnt picking them for race relations issues , his latter comments clearly show he picked the three degrees as they were called because they were good players

The bloke is a racist , ****** is a horrific term

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Do you really believe that he was pusing those black players out of the goodness of his heart,or because he thought they could make HIM successful?

There is definitely a bias in how black players are described though, a lot of the time from people who would be shocked if anyone thought they were being racist.
When Naby Keita was signed from Leipzig he was variously described as being like Ngolo Kante or Patrick Vieira amongst others neither of whom he's really anything like as a player, the only similarity is he's black.
We have deep ingrained prejuduces about what black players can be and what they can do. Yaya Toure is another good example, always described predominantly as "powerful" when really he was phenomenally skillful. A premier league scout/analyst sais his game is most similar to Zinedine Zidane than anyone else, but you would never see that kind of comparison made.

American sports went through a similar learning curve - once upon a time quarterbacks were overwhelmingly white, but these days more and more black quarterbacks are coming through each year.

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Do you think Atkinson would have failed if he'd instead NOT used Regis et al? In that era, the safe option would have been not to use them - especially several at a time. What he did was groundbreaking which led to the groundswell of black players we know see - progress still needs to be taken with regards to other BAME sections. Can't rest on laurels.

Re comments about Keita, in what respect can it be proven that those comments were made due to subconscious racial bias and not ignorance on the part of those making the comments? There are plenty of thick pundits after all.

I'd agree with Toure wasn't always given the credit for his skill, but he was a power player too - combined physicality AND skill.

My concern about the study of commentary cited would be that was there any possible confirmation bias in the way comments were selected?

With regards to NFL, there are many position overwhelmingly belonging to one skin pigmentation or another - RBs, WRs predominently black for example. Equally, basketball. Not sure why that is, but suspect external factors play a part - for example, I'd presume that in economically deprived areas, sport is a key route out of poverty?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It's all very well picking players because they are good enough for your team and therefore good for you but was he calling them lazy black ******s under his breath when they made a mistake ?

He wasnt picking them for race relations issues , his latter comments clearly show he picked the three degrees as they were called because they were good players

The bloke is a racist , ****** is a horrific term

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Stop using that term then...

I've repeatedly said I don't defend or excuse him comments but if he was making those comments under his breath, do you really believe that in his lengthy managerial history, nobody would have heard them?

As for the "Three Degrees" tag, nobody seems to have had a problem with that?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-19077873
https://taleoftwohalves.uk/featured/...-three-degrees
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/0...ung-black-men/

The fact is, all three players received racist abuse from their own fans. It would have been incredibly easy for Atkinson to drop them, get fans off his and their backs. Instead he persisted playing them based on ability. You seem to want to ignore the importance of that - Atkinson's faith in their abilities told people, "these black players are every bit as good if not better than white players". At that point in football, that was groundbreaking.

Did he pick them because they were good players? Of course he did, would you rather they were picked as "tokens"? Their ability and Atkinson picking them based upon their ability opened the floodgates for many, I've little doubt their play inspired many of the current generation.

None of that would have happened - or more accurately, progress would have been massively delayed - without Atkinson having faith in them.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Do you really believe that he was pusing those black players out of the goodness of his heart,or because he thought they could make HIM successful?

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Well this is it. If you've got a black player and a white player of similar ability and the manager overlooks the one of the opposite race, and does this often, then you've got to wonder.

If you've got a black player and a white player and the one of the opposite race is far better, then even a racist manager isn't going to be stupid enough not to pick him.

But this is the kind of thing that happens earlier in the selection process, when the players are getting selected/rejected in their teens.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Stop using that term then...

I've repeatedly said I don't defend or excuse him comments but if he was making those comments under his breath, do you really believe that in his lengthy managerial history, nobody would have heard them?

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I am merely quoting atkinson , it's what he said

I know you dont condone those comments

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I am merely quoting atkinson , it's what he said

I know you dont condone those comments

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I know you know that but plenty seem to misconstrue.

I respect your view but fundamentally disagree because it's possible to acknowledge the great work he did for the cause of black players whilst also acknowledging racist comments made. On balance, for me, his actions as WBA manager improved the footballing lives of many, broke the barriers for many of the current generation of footballers whilst his comments have tarnished his individual legacy.

He helped many, damaged himself.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

I know you know that but plenty seem to misconstrue.

I respect your view but fundamentally disagree because it's possible to acknowledge the great work he did for the cause of black players whilst also acknowledging racist comments made. On balance, for me, his actions as WBA manager improved the footballing lives of many, broke the barriers for many of the current generation of footballers whilst his comments have tarnished his individual legacy.

He helped many, damaged himself.

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But this, to me, demonstrates a certain, albeit small willingness to turn a blind eye to a stupid, racist comment. By way of comparison, do people still talk about a paradox with Jimmy Savile, saying he damaged himself with his many, horrendous paedophilic acts but helped many through his charity work? No, they don't. We need the same zero tolerance towards casual racism.

Getting back to the original subject. There are differences in the black and white body. There is a reason why black people are normally quicker. I'm not sure about the strength aspect but black people appear to put on more muscle. This could be due to colouring the same way bodybuilders grease themselves up?
I'm not sure.

When you have an advantage then of pace you are more than likely to be utilised in an area where pace is more useful.

It's also a physical attribute rather than a skill. Black people make up about 35% of PL players but only account for 13% of the population. There are physical advantages to being black I'm sure of it when it comes to elite level sport.

I do agree about the old lazy comments you still hear it now about Murphy and used to hear it about Bothroyd. I think that is particularly unfair as when sprinting at high intensity you are not able to recover as quickly.

What I dont want now is people ticking stuff off. The commentators need more than this to help them like correcting themselves when a replay has shown them to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

But this, to me, demonstrates a certain, albeit small willingness to turn a blind eye to a stupid, racist comment. By way of comparison, do people still talk about a paradox with Jimmy Savile, saying he damaged himself with his many, horrendous paedophilic acts but helped many through his charity work? No, they don't. We need the same zero tolerance towards casual racism.

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Hardly turning a blind eye to anything, I've condemned the comments made.

In the same way, you can praise Saville for his ciartiy work whilst condemning the alleged paedophilia - and using "alleged" only due to not being tested in a court of law.

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Originally Posted by mazadona10

Getting back to the original subject. There are differences in the black and white body. There is a reason why black people are normally quicker. I'm not sure about the strength aspect but black people appear to put on more muscle. This could be due to colouring the same way bodybuilders grease themselves up?
I'm not sure.

When you have an advantage then of pace you are more than likely to be utilised in an area where pace is more useful.

It's also a physical attribute rather than a skill.

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I once watched a sports science documentary exploring why blacks are better sprinters and it was using Usain bolt ( it did look at Michael Johnson aswell ) as a test subject, it is all to do with fast twitch muscle fibres, blacks have more by all accounts

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Originally Posted by blue matt

I once watched a sports science documentary exploring why blacks are better sprinters and it was using Usain bolt ( it did look at Michael Johnson aswell ) as a test subject, it is all to do with fast twitch muscle fibres, blacks have more by all accounts

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I find it genuinely interesting that it's entirely possible to have the debate that there are genetic differences in DNA passed down through generations without it descending into "you're racist" claims.

Feeding back into the main topic, another issue with the study may well be that any potential genetic differences may well not be factored in. For example, if they find black wingers more likely to be called "quick" etc, then those fast twitch muscle fibres could very well be a good reason behind commentators using the phrase more for them.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

No it doesn't, as I said.

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Good lad, you're getting there

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Originally Posted by mazadona10

Getting back to the original subject. There are differences in the black and white body. There is a reason why black people are normally quicker. I'm not sure about the strength aspect but black people appear to put on more muscle. This could be due to colouring the same way bodybuilders grease themselves up?
I'm not sure.

When you have an advantage then of pace you are more than likely to be utilised in an area where pace is more useful.

It's also a physical attribute rather than a skill. Black people make up about 35% of PL players but only account for 13% of the population. There are physical advantages to being black I'm sure of it when it comes to elite level sport.

I do agree about the old lazy comments you still hear it now about Murphy and used to hear it about Bothroyd. I think that is particularly unfair as when sprinting at high intensity you are not able to recover as quickly.

What I dont want now is people ticking stuff off. The commentators need more than this to help them like correcting themselves when a replay has shown them to be wrong.

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I think there's a lot of women who have noticed there's differences in the black and white body! More tea vicar?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Good lad, you're getting there

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Silly comment to make, was already there...