UPDATED: David Henderson - Found guilty.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Indeed. That's a second contractual issue in play. The taxi analogy earlier in this thread is an oversimplified and inaccurate analogy.

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How is the taxi analogy inaccurate?
It's transport of a person in the private hire world.

Just cos he died by air doesn't make any difference.

Doesn't matter whether Nantes, cardiff, mckay or the player himself arranged the flight.
You must assume nobody knew the pilot didn't have the appropriate licence, otherwise they wouldn't have got the transport involved.

There's 1 guilty party here... the airline.
And Henderson is part of that according to the prosecution

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Originally Posted by nugent

How is the taxi analogy inaccurate?
It's transport of a person in the private hire world.

Just cos he died by air doesn't make any difference.

Doesn't matter whether Nantes, cardiff, mckay or the player himself arranged the flight.
You must assume nobody knew the pilot didn't have the appropriate licence, otherwise they wouldn't have got the transport involved.

There's 1 guilty party here... the airline.
And Henderson is part of that according to the prosecution

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There isnt an airline
Henderson is not the owner (as you have said in an earlier post). He's the operator
If you knowingly use an illegal operator you are breaking the law

This is not a taxi.

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Originally Posted by Optimistic Nick

There isnt an airline
Henderson is not the owner (as you have said in an earlier post). He's the operator
If you knowingly use an illegal operator you are breaking the law

This is not a taxi.

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Good god I give up.

Why is everyone taking things literally.

A defacto airline then.
It's a leasing company whatever you wanna call it.

They are operating as an airline, they are available for hire.

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Originally Posted by nugent

Good god I give up.

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Ok

Although presumably Nugent does have a point insofar as all of this is irrelevant to the immediate case which relates to the criminal liability of Dave Henderson.

All of the stuff about who instructed him etc would, I am sure, be of interest as regards the dispute between the clubs (or their insurers), and the detail of who the owner, operator etc is would likely be relevant there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nugent

Good god I give up.

Why is everyone taking things literally.

A defacto airline then.
It's a leasing company whatever you wanna call it.

They are operating as an airline, they are available for hire.

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There is a distinction between "owner-opeators" and "non operating owners" - what appears to be being reported is that trust owning the plane were not the operators - but Dave Henderson was. The distinction is important with regards owners liability, because depending on jurisdiction most commonly it is deemed that the lessor operator who is not the owner- Dave Henderson was the defacto owner along with the liabilities an owner would be normally due to meet should it go wrong. Of course the operating model of Cool Flourish and Dave Henderson we are yet to have been privy to to my knowledge...but the analogy of getting a taxi and trusting the taxi firm are going to give you a qualified driver misses that most likely Cool Flourish's operations were simply to provide an asset for use by another party in order for the other party to operate it commercially. Usually the maintenance then is outsourced as part of the agreement to the operator and generally a non operating owner will be not held liable for any losses caused by improper maintaince when this has been outsourced to someone of enough skill to be reasonably expected to keep it repaired. As for any assertion that the owners - CF were the actual operators - well you'd have to be well informed as to the agreements in place between the parties and what revenue was going where as part of the operation to take passengers on flights. I would be shocked if the money taken for flights would have been going to CF as a revenue line item - I'd be quite comfortable betting that any McKay money for the flight went to DH...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nugent

How is the taxi analogy inaccurate?
It's transport of a person in the private hire world.

Just cos he died by air doesn't make any difference.

Doesn't matter whether Nantes, cardiff, mckay or the player himself arranged the flight.
You must assume nobody knew the pilot didn't have the appropriate licence, otherwise they wouldn't have got the transport involved.

There's 1 guilty party here... the airline.
And Henderson is part of that according to the prosecution

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The taxi analogy doesn't take into account which party can make a claim against losses incurred by the employer of the victim.
It could be that City had Sala registered and his contract was valid (in which case they may owe £15M to Nantes) and City then have to take action to recover the £15M from an insurance policy taken out by the club or take action to recover monies from the party/parties held responsible for Sala's death. Other possibilities and complications are possible and it sometimes happens that several parties share culpability.

Update from court yesterday bbc news

The pilot of a plane that crashed into the English Channel, killing footballer Emiliano Sala, was ordered not to fly the aircraft, a court has heard.

Fay Keely said she asked that David Ibbotson not fly her plane after being told of previous infringements.

David Henderson, 67, was the plane's operator and was responsible for choosing appropriate pilots.

Ms Keely said she had bought the Piper Malibu aircraft in 2015 through her family's trust, Cool Flourish Ltd, of which she is secretary and director.

She said that she had told Mr Henderson in 2018 that Mr Ibbotson should not fly the aircraft again after she was notified by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) of two infringements that had happened while he was in the air.

She later found out that Henderson had hired Mr Ibbotson again, this time to pilot a flight carrying her sister a month later, in August 2018.

She said: "Later on in the year, in August, he tried to contact me while I was on holiday. He was due to fly my sister on a trip and was going to be piloting himself.

"I found out after the event that he was unavailable and had asked David Ibbotson to fly instead of him."

"He allowed that to happen without my permission," she added.

Asked by defence counsel Stephen Spence QC if she had warned Henderson not to hire Mr Ibbotson again, she said: "No. As far as I was concerned I had made my feelings clear that he shouldn't be flying the aircraft."

In an text message exchange from August 2018, that was read to the jury, Mr Henderson had a conversation with someone who had flown with Mr Ibbotson.

It said: "The Ibbotson experience was interesting! He was all over the place. Had to help him out coming into White Waltham [airfield]."

Mr Henderson replied: "His handling OK? Takes a lot to try and knock these new guys into shape."

"He's just not very quick and not thinking ahead," was the reply.

In another text message, found on Mr Henderson's phone from July 2018, Mr Ibbotson explained he had "messed up a couple of times" during a flight.

Jurors also heard that, hours after the night-time crash, Mr Henderson had messaged aircraft engineer David Smith telling him to "keep very quiet", adding "need to be very careful. Opens up a whole can of worms".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nugent

Update from court yesterday bbc news

The pilot of a plane that crashed into the English Channel, killing footballer Emiliano Sala, was ordered not to fly the aircraft, a court has heard.

Fay Keely said she asked that David Ibbotson not fly her plane after being told of previous infringements.

David Henderson, 67, was the plane's operator and was responsible for choosing appropriate pilots.

Ms Keely said she had bought the Piper Malibu aircraft in 2015 through her family's trust, Cool Flourish Ltd, of which she is secretary and director.

She said that she had told Mr Henderson in 2018 that Mr Ibbotson should not fly the aircraft again after she was notified by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) of two infringements that had happened while he was in the air.

She later found out that Henderson had hired Mr Ibbotson again, this time to pilot a flight carrying her sister a month later, in August 2018.

She said: "Later on in the year, in August, he tried to contact me while I was on holiday. He was due to fly my sister on a trip and was going to be piloting himself.

"I found out after the event that he was unavailable and had asked David Ibbotson to fly instead of him."

"He allowed that to happen without my permission," she added.

Asked by defence counsel Stephen Spence QC if she had warned Henderson not to hire Mr Ibbotson again, she said: "No. As far as I was concerned I had made my feelings clear that he shouldn't be flying the aircraft."

In an text message exchange from August 2018, that was read to the jury, Mr Henderson had a conversation with someone who had flown with Mr Ibbotson.

It said: "The Ibbotson experience was interesting! He was all over the place. Had to help him out coming into White Waltham [airfield]."

Mr Henderson replied: "His handling OK? Takes a lot to try and knock these new guys into shape."

"He's just not very quick and not thinking ahead," was the reply.

In another text message, found on Mr Henderson's phone from July 2018, Mr Ibbotson explained he had "messed up a couple of times" during a flight.

Jurors also heard that, hours after the night-time crash, Mr Henderson had messaged aircraft engineer David Smith telling him to "keep very quiet", adding "need to be very careful. Opens up a whole can of worms".

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:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

:facepalm:

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That Henderson sounds like a right kents of a man….poor Sala left with these mugs holding his life in their horrible hands

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Originally Posted by goats

That Henderson sounds like a right kents of a man….poor Sala left with these mugs holding his life in their horrible hands

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Indeed - an absolute cowboy, based on what's been reported so far. The pathetic attempt to cover up is pretty woeful too. I can sort-of understand the human reaction to protecting your own arse, but I'd like to think most people would realise this was a very serious issue and make full disclosure.

So Hendersons defence is it was Ibbottson who was the operator and therefore culpable for the negligence.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

:facepalm:

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Not good reading but what a lot of people would say.

I.e. don't say anything until you've got a lawyer

That won't fly. He's saying he (Ibbotson) "was the operator from my perspective" - I don't believe this was his perspective for a minute and in actuality - what Henderson is describing is that Ibbotson was the *pilot* to whom Henderson supplied McKay with in his role of operator. Very convenient Ibbotson is not here to coobberate that the expenses were only incurred by Henderson because he had forgotten his credit card! The evidence is damning in terms of invalidating his defence - he was the man operating the hire of the pilot and plane for McKay, and he knew D.I. wasn't adequately qualified - the owner had told him not to use him!

Didn't realise the live updates from court are on WOL

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Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt

That won't fly. He's saying he (Ibbotson) "was the operator from my perspective" - I don't believe this was his perspective for a minute and in actuality - what Henderson is describing is that Ibbotson was the *pilot* to whom Henderson supplied McKay with in his role of operator. Very convenient Ibbotson is not here to coobberate that the expenses were only incurred by Henderson because he had forgotten his credit card! The evidence is damning in terms of invalidating his defence - he was the man operating the hire of the pilot and plane for McKay, and he knew D.I. wasn't adequately qualified - the owner had told him not to use him!

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He's also brought up Willie mckay a few times
That also won't fly, he's just the guy that "ordered the taxi".

Absolutely no way is mckay guilty

There's got to be a better turn of phrase to use in this thread than "that won't fly"

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Originally Posted by nugent

He's also brought up Willie mckay a few times
That also won't fly, he's just the guy that "ordered the taxi".

Absolutely no way is mckay guilty

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Passing the buck springs to mind.

Prosecution had their hands on Henderson today.
Ripped right in to him they did.

Case adjourned now till Monday

agreed - made it look like Henderson has lied, covered his arse and lied some more - nice toucjh at the end when prosecutor pointed out henderson hasn't been in touch with ibbotsons widow - shows how self centered he is. I wonder if there are any other defence witnesses?

A list of witnesses who will be appearing in the trial have been read out to the court.

These include:

The defendant David Henderson.

Reference made to deceased parties Emiliano Sala and David Ibbotson.

The other names or people set to feature in the case are:

Fay Keely

Evren Fencioglu

David Smith

Anthony Hather

Abelle Eshali

Alexandre Monnier

DC Sarah Gedge

Gaile Marchant

Julie Watkins

DC Felicity Dalladay

DI Simon Hotspur

John Overall

Sharon Reed

David Kendrick

Robert Webb

Stephen Hunt

Rhys Cremims

DC Martin Guest

Barry Mooney

Russell Woodland

Lewis Kennington

WIlly McKay

Mark McKay

Jack McKay

Callum Davies

The witness list. looking forward to McKay being on the stand.

Callum Davies is (or was) the Player Liaison Officer for the club - the one who (I think) offered the commercial flight to France and was waiting at Cardiff Airport to collect Emiliano Sala on his return flight that never arrived.

Not sure if there are any other club employees in the witness list - although Jack Mckay was at the time (and acted as go-between from his father/brother to Sala to offer the private flights).

David Smith is the engineer who DH told to keep quiet. Given the CO fault what he says is going to be very interesting which could make things even more serious

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Originally Posted by Madassa

David Smith is the engineer who DH told to keep quiet. Given the CO fault what he says is going to be very interesting which could make things even more serious

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But won’t he be a defence witness?

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

But won’t he be a defence witness?

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i don't know but whatever he will be open to questioning by both defence and prosecution.