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Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Regardless of whether Harris is, or isn't, the right man for the job.
Is this the end of what Warnock started? Only Ralls, Bennett and Morrison are players who were at the club before Warnock became manager. Only 10 players survive from our failed Premier League season.
If we're going to move forward in terms of tactics, keeping hold of players that don't do those tactics justice is an obvious no-no. We're seeing that players struggle to pass the ball well. It's absolutely true that things like that mean little to Warnock, who moulded an unlikely team into an automatic promotion outfit. Sadly, there were cracks in it after relegation and Warnock's previous good work was undone.
Are we at the stage where we need a clearance and a refocus on what we need? Have the players themselves gone as far as they can?
Yes, I know there's not much money available, but a skilled manager can work well on little. I'm feeling like a return to the PL is several seasons away and dependant on Tan's pocket. I'm also feeling that the structure of the club is wrong.
Worrying times. Are we closer to League 1 or the fabled Premier League?
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
We've needed a rebuild for years IMO.
The rebuild starts at what type of football you want to play and therefore what type of players you sign and develop through the youth ranks. This also fits in with the style of manager.
We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
The blame for that sits with the board.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
nail on the head harry flashman !
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Vinnie has been here over 10 years.
If he'd set his stall out to be X type of team with his investment we'd be a regular Premier League team - be that one that plays like Burnley or Barca.
They just can't work out what we are. I can - shit.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
We've needed a rebuild for years IMO.
The rebuild starts at what type of football you want to play and therefore what type of players you sign and develop through the youth ranks. This also fits in with the style of manager.
We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
The blame for that sits with the board.
Absolutely. We've applied plasters to all sorts of wounds without having any coherent plan.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Absolutely. We've applied plasters to all sorts of wounds without having any coherent plan.
I was talking to my son's coach tonight after training and both of us are old enough to remember City lurching around Div 3 & 4 and that where we are now kind of represents success so maybe we shouldn't grumble. My eldest son's only know the top two tiers and cup finals and therefore think our current position is shocking.
I'd just like to see a plan - don't care what league its in or whether it means going down and back up as I'll still support them
Just a vision and a plan.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
I was talking to my son's coach tonight after training and both of us are old enough to remember City lurching around Div 3 & 4 and that where we are now kind of represents success so maybe we shouldn't grumble. My eldest son's only know the top two tiers and cup finals and therefore think our current position is shocking.
I'd just like to see a plan - don't care what league its in or whether it means going down and back up as I'll still support them
Just a vision and a plan.
Yes. We have neither. Just short termism. I feel sorry for Harris in some ways, but he's not the solution in a job that's probably not right for him, either.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Take away the loanees and almost every player in the starting 11 needs to be replaced in the next 24 months. I wouldn't offer new contacts to any of them. So I'd say yes, we have definitely reached the stage where we need a major rebuild. We probably reached it as soon as we were relegated from the EPL. Warnock should have been sacked before we were relegated. It's going to take years to recover from his last 12 months in charge.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
My sons’ coach (himself a former Premier League player) put it best when after the Millwall game, said that Cardiff are “full of dead wood”.
It’s notable that very few of our players get linked with moves to great heights. They only seem to go to clubs in a lesser position.
I think a clearout is definitely in order.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
I agree, thought it for years, but I don't see it happening unless we're relegated to League 1. Is it bad that I want that to happen? I want change to be forced as we're just sleepwalking now.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Our side was full of players who were over thirty or close to it last season and, although Neil Harris took some steps towards addressing that during the transfer window, it's still an issue which needs tackling because it seems to me that, increasingly, the Championship is becoming a young player's league.
Add to that the matter of our inadequate skill levels in terms of passing and controlling the ball (any attempt to fully become a passing side is doomed to failure with this group of players in my opinion) and, yes, I believe we do need a major rebuild. Of course, with most other sides of our size in this league, such a task would be aided by the knowledge that one or two of the required new first teamers could be found in the club's number of home produced players, but I'm sceptical about that happening here despite our manager's claims about being willing to give youth a chance - Mark Harris is seen increasingly on the bench for the first team bench, but it's revealing that the only time he comes on is with a minute or two to go when we're a goal down.
Such a rebuild is hindered as well by the apparent belief at the top of the club in the Boardroom and with the manager, that our supporters want us to play the sort of dross which has characterised much of the last decade - my opinion is that while City crowds have always appreciated a trier, they also appreciate what is commonly called "good" football.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
There aren't many teams who rebuild without a) spending a lot of money and/or b) promoting their best youth players who can make a difference in the league they're in. While I argued that Warnock shouldn't have been sacked immediately after relegation, because the board needed time to ensure right successor brought in, the way he spent money in that window and the way he didn't develop for the future really left us in a mess, and I wished the local press would say so rather than just quoting him when he says he left a magnificent squad. We have been a sticky plaster club for most of the past 10 years, Malky's first season aside, but hopefully the brief Harris was given tells us that is changing - even if he is the wrong man to carry out that brief.
Part of the issue, as far as I can tell, is that youth team have been brought up to play with the ball but most of our recent managers (at least in years at the club) have wanted to play risk-free football. It's not just managerial appointments that have been disjointed, but again local press report that Cardiff fans won't accept players looking to pass out from the back.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
We've needed a rebuild for years IMO.
The rebuild starts at what type of football you want to play and therefore what type of players you sign and develop through the youth ranks. This also fits in with the style of manager.
We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
The blame for that sits with the board.
It does....summed up well by this....We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
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Originally Posted by
goats
It does....summed up well by this....We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
We did lurch from one thing to the next, but there are those who call Harris a poundland Warnock who hasn't changed the playing style and there are those who bemoan our players now trying to pass out from the back which suggests we're no longer lurching and have some understanding of need to develop things.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
surge
We did lurch from one thing to the next, but there are those who call Harris a poundland Warnock who hasn't changed the playing style and there are those who bemoan our players now trying to pass out from the back which suggests we're no longer lurching and have some understanding of need to develop things.
We certainly are trying to pass the ball a bit more but if that's the way we are going then surely the club should explain the strategy and say that through thick or thin this is the direction of travel.
I feel as though our managers are constantly a few losses from dismissal.
Maybe that's what this message-board does to you and it's not the sentiments of the board.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
A major change is needed on Saturday starting with the back line, be interesting to see if Harris got the balls to drop his captain.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
We've needed a rebuild for years IMO.
The rebuild starts at what type of football you want to play and therefore what type of players you sign and develop through the youth ranks. This also fits in with the style of manager.
We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
The blame for that sits with the board.
Aye, that's succinctly put there Flashman.
You can see that a director of football would really be of value for city at this juncture. Someone who can oversee the footballing side of things across the age groups and coaching staff / approaches.
I think most city fans would be happy with a few years in the championship IF they are seeing progress on the footballing side of things.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Most managers want to rebuild, Harris has just tweeked what Warnock had but tactically lost. His transfer business in not bringing in a right back above a back up keeper is very odd
We need a new manager with new ideas.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
I was talking to my son's coach tonight after training and both of us are old enough to remember City lurching around Div 3 & 4 and that where we are now kind of represents success so maybe we shouldn't grumble. My eldest son's only know the top two tiers and cup finals and therefore think our current position is shocking.
I'd just like to see a plan - don't care what league its in or whether it means going down and back up as I'll still support them
Just a vision and a plan.
A vision and a plan needs to come from the board not the manager, preferably a director of football
Managers are not directors.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Whilst results clearly matter, are we at a transitional point where the team is part way through a rebuild?
We don’t know what transfer targets were aimed for and subsequently missed (eg a right back), but we do know that the club is financially hamstrung.
I’m not entirely convinced that changing the manager is going to be the magic fix we’d all like.
I am convinced that we need a Director of Football and at the same time, the club needs to be more open to sharing its intentions and plans - if indeed it has any.
I also wonder whether the club can afford to change managers arb the is time.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
We've been stumbling from pillar to post since Jones left.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
Aye, that's succinctly put there Flashman.
You can see that a director of football would really be of value for city at this juncture. Someone who can oversee the footballing side of things across the age groups and coaching staff / approaches.
I think most city fans would be happy with a few years in the championship IF they are seeing progress on the footballing side of things.
Undoubtedly.
As it is, we've not had any progress, just short termism. It all goes back to 2012. When Malky was appointed, he was given 3 years to get the club into the Championship. Because we finished in the playoffs and got to the league cup final, the board decided to reduce that time to 2 years - the year we won the Championship the board was expecting promotion.
Ever since then it's been about the here and now. The foundations weren't built for a spell in the Premier League and we came back down. The quality in the side dwindled under Slade's austerity, then we had the short-lived "Cardiff Way" under Trollope, where he tried to get average players playing a Welsh style game.
Warnock added some pace and got the best out of a few players and won promotion, but that covered up the cracks. We were a poor footballing side in the PL that deservedly came back down and we started a new season back in the Championship with a squad low on confidence.
We rarely buy players for peanuts and sell for a profit. We never bring through our own players. We tend to buy and sell on at a loss. It's not sustainable as it is.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Undoubtedly.
As it is, we've not had any progress, just short termism. It all goes back to 2012. When Malky was appointed, he was given 3 years to get the club into the Championship. Because we finished in the playoffs and got to the league cup final, the board decided to reduce that time to 2 years - the year we won the Championship the board was expecting promotion.
Ever since then it's been about the here and now. The foundations weren't built for a spell in the Premier League and we came back down. The quality in the side dwindled under Slade's austerity, then we had the short-lived "Cardiff Way" under Trollope, where he tried to get average players playing a Welsh style game.
Warnock added some pace and got the best out of a few players and won promotion, but that covered up the cracks. We were a poor footballing side in the PL that deservedly came back down and we started a new season back in the Championship with a squad low on confidence.
We rarely buy players for peanuts and sell for a profit. We never bring through our own players. We tend to buy and sell on at a loss. It's not sustainable as it is.
I think the difference is that 15 or 20 years ago, pretty much every team were haphazard with their appointments, but nowadays we are in a dwindling minority of clubs that don't plan for the longer term, so the effects of it seem more stark.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I think the difference is that 15 or 20 years ago, pretty much every team were haphazard with their appointments, but nowadays we are in a dwindling minority of clubs that don't plan for the longer term, so the effects of it seem more stark.
If you run a business, surely it's standard practice to see what other similar businesses are doing, what they do successfully, what hasn't worked, and copy/tweak to suit. If lots of us fans can suggest what is wrong, how on earth can supposedly top businessmen not see it?
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Perhaps the major rebuild needs us to fall lower than we are now in terms of expectation , and come back fresher and new , it appears were a club with so many legacy issues , long contracts that the new man has to manage , with manager after manager we just paper over the cracks , whats that saying one step back ?
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
If you run a business, surely it's standard practice to see what other similar businesses are doing, what they do successfully, what hasn't worked, and copy/tweak to suit. If lots of us fans can suggest what is wrong, how on earth can supposedly top businessmen not see it?
In my experience you study other business models , see where their gaps are and seek niche opportunities in the market and then exploit and diversify them to your benefit .
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
If you run a business, surely it's standard practice to see what other similar businesses are doing, what they do successfully, what hasn't worked, and copy/tweak to suit. If lots of us fans can suggest what is wrong, how on earth can supposedly top businessmen not see it?
yes but football is also packed full of dinosaurs who are very resistant to anything new
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
If you run a business, surely it's standard practice to see what other similar businesses are doing, what they do successfully, what hasn't worked, and copy/tweak to suit. If lots of us fans can suggest what is wrong, how on earth can supposedly top businessmen not see it?
I go back to this feeling that the top echelons at the club believe that Cardiff City have a tradition of playing direct, long ball football of the sort we've played since around the time we appointed Malky Mackay and it's what the club's supporters want to see from their team. In my experience, Cardiff City fans have always wanted their team to give their all and "get stuck in" type players have tended to be popular with supporters down the years.
However, you only have to read some of the posts on here looking back on the Dave Jones years to realise that there is also a recognition and appreciation of players who could get them out of their seats because of their ability, not their slide tackles. I've had more than enough of the sort of stuff we been producing for the last ten years and always groan when we go back to our default setting of launching it long or relying on set pieces when we're struggling, as we so often do, to produce anything worthwhile from open play.
Neil Harris talks about us and Millwall having fans who want the same things from their teams and I know what he means up to a point, but when we were leaving the ground on one of those days when Bothroyd, Chopra. McCormack, Burke, McPhail, Whittingham etc had turned it on was there anybody who was saying "yes, but we didn't win enough second balls, didn't impose ourselves enough physically and didn't take advantage of our set pieces enough?".
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
We lurch from one thing to the next with seemingly no strategy.
This was very apparent with MM, OGS and Slade. MM built on steady eddies. OGS bought in the "flair" players. When Slade came in, he would have been better off with the team before it had all been changed.
It's why Swansea was successful for a while (and finding a few strikers that could actually score).
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Yes and we have been for a while. There's no clear playing style, no clear direction from the board, no path into the first team from our academy, we just hope for the best
What's particularly annoying about all that is in spite of our complete lack of plan, we've been relatively successful over the last decade. A League Cup final, 2 promotions, 3 play off campaigns and never finishing below the top half of the Championship. Imagine what we could have achieved with a plan
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
A vision and a plan needs to come from the board not the manager, preferably a director of football
Managers are not directors.
Which is exactly what I said.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harry Paget Flashman
Which is exactly what I said.
Then you were exactly right
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
To introduce a wider point on basis of what board have been doing off the pitch in terms of longer term planning:
i) debt reduction
ii) new facilities built or planned: house of sport version i, ii, ground expansion and plans for new training base plus new academy training base
iii) this past 12 months have seen greater discussion about youth development and hired David Hughes to oversee youth development
Action has been taken off the pitch while what has been done of the pitch has been fixed up with gaffer tape.
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Re: Are we at the stage where there's a major rebuild needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Regardless of whether Harris is, or isn't, the right man for the job.
Is this the end of what Warnock started? Only Ralls, Bennett and Morrison are players who were at the club before Warnock became manager. Only 10 players survive from our failed Premier League season.
If we're going to move forward in terms of tactics, keeping hold of players that don't do those tactics justice is an obvious no-no. We're seeing that players struggle to pass the ball well. It's absolutely true that things like that mean little to Warnock, who moulded an unlikely team into an automatic promotion outfit. Sadly, there were cracks in it after relegation and Warnock's previous good work was undone.
Are we at the stage where we need a clearance and a refocus on what we need? Have the players themselves gone as far as they can?
Yes, I know there's not much money available, but a skilled manager can work well on little. I'm feeling like a return to the PL is several seasons away and dependant on Tan's pocket. I'm also feeling that the structure of the club is wrong.
Worrying times. Are we closer to League 1 or the fabled Premier League?
The last time I can remember us mixing youth and experienced players, turning a profit on players we bought and playing an entertaining style of football was under Dave Jones. The 'nearly' men of that era were enjoyable to watch (they had their moments mind!), but ultimately a less attractive and exciting brand of football got us promoted on two occasions. What came with that was the change in ownership and myopia from Tan and the board.
Sport is a business, and you have to move with the times. Successful clubs often have adapted or adopted new ways of working, just look at Norwich for example. My opinion, look at the best and how they operate, using Sporting Directors or the like.
